Complete Kitchen Remodel - hoping for some feedback / advice. Thanks!!

6 years ago

Hello Everyone,

We are doing a complete gut and remodel of our very old kitchen, including removing a wall to open up into the dining room.

We are debating a couple of options, and seeking additional feedback / advice. We heard that a lot of people on this forum are real experts, and we would really appreciate your inputs. We barely cook, so we can't really tell if this kitchen design is functional (we hope this will change once we have our new kitchen!)

Below are some of our questions. We included 3 pics: render, floor plans, older design

1. Are we crazy to have the island facing the oven, versus facing the sink? Some concerns are limiting the space in the dining area, and maybe messing up the flow / look & feel. On the other hand, with this orientation it’s easier to interact with people that may be seated at the table.
2. There is a beverage fridge (an option we are really interested in) allocated to the center of the island. We are considering orienting the island in this direction primarily to squeeze in the beverage fridge (the island was originally oriented facing the sink). Would it be a bad idea to try increasing the beverage fridge from 18 to 24 inches, and reorder as follows: "beverage fridge, drawers, microwave" ? In this case, should we shrink the width of the drawers?
3. Would it be a good / bad idea to add a slim utility closet to the right of the full size pantry, with a wall plug inside for hand-held vacuum, brooms...? We have another closet nearby we could use for this purpose...
4. Would you recommend other ways to squeeze a beverage fridge into the design with the island oriented to face the sink? (ref. old design, 3rd image)... We already know we don't want the microwave above the range. Maybe we look into shrinking the pantry and putting the fridge next to it? Or putting the beverage fridge where the pantry is, with cabinets above it?
5. Do you think we have enough space around the island?
6. Overall, does this design seem functional? Currently, we barely cook, so we would greatly appreciate your opinion
7. Any other general advice? FYI, the room to the right is the living room.

Thank you very much !!

NOTE: The third pic is an older design, with original island orientation. After this design, we decided for a full size pantry, a range (vs separate oven), and putting the microwave in the island. Also, the table dimensions were not accurate. Including this just for reference, so you can see what the other island orientation looks like.

Featured Answer

silvero39
Original Author

6 years ago

Thank you for the awesome advice, everyone!! This is very helpful. We are studying all your inputs and will let you know if we have other questions. Thanks again!!!

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (17)

damiarain
6 years ago
Can I ask about about the beverage fridge kind of driving the design since the main fridge and it appear to be just steps apart? Is it for 'serving' the outdoor space? the dining space? just don't want to walk 2 more steps? =)
0
silvero39
Original Author
6 years ago
Great question! My wife doesn’t like how beer bottles and cans use up all the space inside the fridge, lol. Also, she thinks a beverage center looks nice, especially if it lights up or something. It’s also to serve the living room, when we entertain. I like that you probed me on this. If we cannot “have it all” (which is what the design is trying to accomplish) we would sacrifice the beverage fridge.
0
Related Discussions
FULL kitchen remodel... would love some advice!
Q
Comments (13)
This is the first post from a Gardenweb thread titled What Kind Or Range/Cooktop/Oven Is Safest For Little Children? johnliu wrote, "I have toddlers, so I need a high wall oven". "Because of my babies, I won't consider a gas range". "I'm getting induction because I care about my childrens' safety." Does any of this sound familiar? I see these sentiments occasionally here on KF. They are expressed by younger parents who have very young children, or are planning to start families. Oddly enough, I seldom (actually, can't specifically recall ever) hear these concerns from older parents who have actually raised children. Humans learn from experience, so you'd expect the loudest warnings against ranges and gas burners to come from those with . . . experience. Why don't we? I decided to go looking for data. Here is an interesting article, "Kitchen Scalds and Thermal Burns in Children Five Years and Younger", that was published in Pediatrics, Jan 2005. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/115/1/10 The scientists examined the records of all kitchen thermal burns that resulted in a child's visit to a statistical sample of 100 emergency departments nationwide, over a period of five years, 1997-2002. They looked at all cooking-related thermal injuries, excluding accidents where a child pulled on an electrical appliance's cord and was injured by the toaster, coffee maker, etc and/or its contents. The main findings were: - Scalds from hot liquid were the main cause of burns serious enough for an ER room visit (was 2/3rd of the cases), and are the dominant cause of hospitalizations. - Burns from touching hot pots or other surfaces were less common (was 1/3rd of the cases), and seldom resulted in hospitalization. Most burns were from touching a hot pot. - There were 7 total injury patterns: (1) reached up and pulled down pot from stove or other elevated surface; (2) grabbed, overturned, or spilled pot onto self; (3) collided with pot or with person holding pot; (4) put hands into pot; (5) pot contents splashed onto child; (6) other; and (7) unknown. (1) (2) and (5) were the most common, accounting for about 50% of all the injuries. (6) and (7) were less than 10%. - Boys were more likely to climb up on counters and spill pots on themselves. Girls were more likely to have hot liquids splashed on them. Note what was not a significant pattern of injury requiring a hospital visit: chidren touching a hot oven door, chidren holding their hands in a gas flame, children turning on a gas burner and blowing themselves up. I can't say these accidents never happen, but if they do, it is so rare as to not show up in the data. Here's my take on this. Your concern for the safety of your children, both born and unborn, should have essentially nothing to do with what kind of range, cooktop, or wall oven you choose. Whether the pot is on a gas flame or an induction hob really makes no difference to your child's risk of being scalded or burned, whether the knobs are on the front or the top makes no difference, and whether the pan is in a range oven or a wall oven also makes no difference. It isn't the appliance! that is the threat to your child. They all do the same thing: get pots and pans, and their contents, very hot. The threat is the pots and pans and the food in them. Take care to keep pots on the back burners, handles turned in. Have landing space to set hot pots away from counter edges. Design your kitchen so you don't have to criss-cross the room carrying pots of hot liquid (unlike a couple of kitchens recently discussed here). Supervise your children and watch where you're walking. That is what is important, not your appliance selection. From a father whose two kids have reached 11 y/o and 14 y/o without any kitchen accidents, despite having grown up in some awfully dodgy kitchens! Here is a link that might be useful: What Kind Or Range/Cooktop/Oven Is Safest For Little Children?
...See More
Hoping for kitchen design feedback!
Q
Comments (30)
As much as I'd love to save some space and finally settle on something, I haven't been convinced that the bench attached to the island is something that would work for our family/cooking style, so I'm going to abandon that idea for now. Mama goose, the area above the WC/Kitchen is a wide hall/entry with not a lot of natural light, so wouldn't make a great living room. Plus, the kitchen/dining/living room is 35' x 20' (minus the bathroom, of course), so it seems it should be plenty big for all three uses for our family. I've attached two more ideas with the following changes/ideas: - I changed the cookstove/masonry heater to more accurately reflect what it will look like (our planner had drawn in the other one). - I moved the doorway into the kitchen over to the left by about 8 inches to allow more space next to the range. - The kitchen is an L open to the both the woodstove and the dining table, and the two variations on the island are both appliance-free for prep/baking/canning/etc. - One plan has the fridge again near the door, which I'm worried crowds the range a bit. The other has the fridge at the other end of the kitchen, which gives more space to the range on the top wall but then rather separates the window seat from the kitchen, which I'd hoped to avoid, but maybe is fine? - And the thing I'm most excited to have thought about is the phone charging/family command center cabinet in the doorway! I know it's not super ideal to have a cabinet in a doorway (even with a 40" opening), but this way it opens up that desperately needed space on the top wall of the kitchen without me losing the general location the phone charging/family calendar space, and since we're moving that doorway and the wall will be reconstructed anyway it seems perfect. (And I don't think it's a cabinet we'll use when we have people over, either). I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts and ideas, and helping me see what I've overlooked or forgotten! Nessa
...See More
Need some feedback on kitchen design
Q
Comments (31)
Wow, that's really innovative and thinking outside the box. Thank you so much for all the renderings. I wish we were still in the framing or planning stage. I've seen some walk through wet bars in model homes that kind of look like your giant walk through pantry, but I've never envisioned it in my house. Hubby says what we have is what we have and we have to stick to it. He says the fridge can't be moved due to plumbing/wiring already in place. I'll have to do the best with the layout we have and maximize on the counter space (21" on either side of the stove which should be sufficient since I just read that bare minimum is 15" and I know that's just safety code bare minimum so ideally it'd be like 24-36", but it won't happen in my kitchen) and base drawers we have. My kitchen cabinets designer is helping me put in as many sets of base drawers as possible. It's not a custom cabinets place so there's some limitations.
...See More
Feedback on kitchen remodel as part of condo remodel
Q
Comments (8)
No expert here, but the layout is confusing to me. What are all those dark, shaded blocks--new walls? It seems to me the traffic flow through your original kitchen would be better, but without knowing what you are trying to achieve here, it's hard to say. I'm right handed and appreciate having my dishwasher to the right, but plenty of right-handed people will tell you that having it on the left isn't a problem at all.
...See More
Related Professionals
El Dorado Hills Kitchen & Bathroom Designers · Minnetonka Mills Kitchen & Bathroom Remodelers · Schiller Park Kitchen & Bathroom Remodelers · Centerville Interior Designers & Decorators · Queens Interior Designers & Decorators · Highland City General Contractors · New Bern General Contractors · Plainfield Architects & Building Designers · La Verne Kitchen & Bathroom Designers · Houston Furniture & Accessories · Abington General Contractors · Los Lunas General Contractors · Palestine General Contractors · Schertz General Contractors · Cleveland Kitchen & Bathroom Remodelers
cyc2001
6 years ago
The layout and workflow look good to me (admittedly I’m not one of the experts), but I would suggest you consider getting a range instead of a cooktop and wall oven. It looks like you could use more storage and a pantry instead of a wall oven.
0
mama goose_gw zn6OH
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
The layout looks OK, but it would work much better with the fridge and pantries switched--someone coming from the living areas will use the fridge (even with a beverage fridge), more often than a pantry. With the fridge on that wall there is no conflict with the back door.

Original plan on right/rearranged plan on left. Click to enlarge:
Sorry, I hit submit before I finished typing. My main concern is the aisle width--the sink aisle seems to be only 30". which is much too tight. I reduced the length of the island, and put the beverage center on the end closer to the living areas, so that anyone looking for a drink doesn't need to enter the prep and cooking spaces. The MW is across from the fridge, since many items are taken directly from the fridge for reheating.

I would suggest ROTS, or drawers for dishes, in the pantry beside the DW. With clean-up and dish storage on that end of the wall, a helper can unload the DW, or gather dishes to set the table, without entering the prep and cooking zones. Some pantry items can be kept in the upper cabinets closer to the range, where they will be convenient to the prep and cooking zones.

Since you admittedly don't cook much, you will find a wealth of info in the following thread, which was compiled by one of Gardenweb's most dedicated kitchen planners:

[New to Kitchens? Read me first.[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first-dsvw-vd~4306041?n=585)

Also, excellent info in the NKBA guidelines.
0
silvero39
Original Author
6 years ago
Thank you for the response! We already opted for the range and pantry. I included the older design to show the original orientation of the island. I am looking for feedback on the design with the long side of the island parallel with the longer wall
0
dsgts
6 years ago
I have a comment about the narrow, lower cabinets on either side of the range and right side of the sink. I am also not an expert, but I just had cabinets installed and can share what I learned. I hope this is helpful feedback. My design included a narrow cabinet with shelves that would provide access to the blind corner. The 14" opening is too narrow for me to reach anything in the corner and it is difficult to retrieve items that are not on the front of the shelves. The cabinetmaker is replacing the door and shelves with drawers (at my expense, of course). This will give me easy access to more items that I use daily. I am willing to go to the basement for things I might use a few times a year. This part of the original plan looked fine on paper but in reality was practically useless.
0
lisa_a
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Congrats on getting ready to remodel your kitchen! There is a lot of collective wisdom here, plus great threads to read to learn about how to plan a kitchen. A good place to start is by reading [New to Kitchens? Read Me First![(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first-dsvw-vd~4306041?n=585)

Okay, on to reviewing your plan.

You're going to have problems opening the left door of your fridge wide enough to pull out fridge drawers. Read a recent thread about problems with putting a fridge next to a wall, [Fridge hitting wall - help!
[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/fridge-hitting-wall-help-dsvw-vd~5301195)

With just over 150" from range to exterior wall, you don't have enough room to include seating at the island and have a decent aisle between island and range. You don't want to cheat on either. Too shallow a seating aisle and the door will hit someone seated at the island. Too shallow a working island between range and MW and beverage fridge in the island and you and your family will be in each other's way more often than not.

Given your kitchen's size and how close your table is to the island, I think you need to give up island seating. Not every kitchen can accommodate an island with seating (mine didn't). You need to design a kitchen for the amount of room you have not what you wish you have.

Speaking of, you're also oversizing the island for the room. You're going to end up with barely functional aisles, with about 55" to split between the sink counter and island and between the island and table.

Something's got to give, sorry. If it makes you feel better, we all have had to do that. Kitchen design is about compromise. But that doesn't mean that you can't have a fabulous kitchen that works well for you when you're done.

Here are diagrams based on NKBA's recommended aisle widths so you understand my above concerns.

Here are my tweaks to your plan to address the above issues.

First off, I upgraded all to all drawer bases. They cost more but they are worth every penny because they provide more efficient storage. We went from base cabs with ROTs (roll out trays) to drawer bases. I knew I'd gain storage space but I had no idea how much more storage I'd have. All of us who have upgraded to drawer bases would do it again in a
heartbeat.

I swapped the fridge and pantry's locations. It's not ideal to have the fridge on the opposite side of the range from the sink but leaving it where you had it isn't going to work either.

I shifted the fridge closer to the doorway to give you more room around the range - more storage and more counter.

I opted for wider drawer bases between sink and corner and between range and corner instead of a corner Susan. IME, everything you can store in a Susan, you can store in drawers but the opposite is not true. I added 3" spacers next to the corner so that you can open drawers without hitting drawer handles of the adjacent cabinets.

Here is my drawer base next to my corner work so you can see what I mean.

Top drawers

Middle drawers:

(yep, really, I have room to spare. That's what happens when you upgrade from from base cabs to drawer bases.)

You will need to take your range's depth into account and adjust the spacer's width on the sink run to make sure your drawers clear the range handles, too.

I moved the MW from the island to a shelf in the pantry to give you room for pots/pans, knives and other prep utensils near the range. It also moves this appliance out of a already busy aisle. It will be similar to this:
KraftMaid Dove White · More Info

I moved the beverage fridge around the corner, facing the table. Honestly, you'd be better off giving this up but if you must have it, this is a better location than where you had it. Family and friends can access it without getting in the cook's way.

I spec'd a 21" deep bathroom drawer base facing the range to allow for this set-up. Most cabinet companies now offer bathroom cabs for 36" high counter install so this should be a doable swap.

Lastly, I added a 18" wide, 12" deep base cab facing the door, giving you additional storage. Here's my 11" deep cabinet on the backside of my island.

And here's my 58 1/2" x 38" island without seating and with the doors closed.

I added false cab faces as needed to the island.

One way to gain a larger island would be to go with a banquette set-up for your table. You'd gain about 14". You also might be able to move the beverage fridge to one of the cabs next to the banquette but I can't read that wall's dimension well enough to know if there's room to do that. If you're interested, let me know and give me that wall's width so I can work the math and draw it up for you.

HTH!
0
damiarain
6 years ago
Thanks for answering my question about the bev fridge :)

i would look at either

1. Having it on the end of the island, facing the dining room. Nice and accessible and you get to enjoy the cool look of it. If not turned out to face the dining room, I would at least not want it in the center of the island - totally in the way of any one trying to use the island for prep or use the range

2. I can’t tell on my phone any of the dimensions, but any chance you could fit some cabinets/buffet in the dining area, under the window? You could put the bev fridge there

3. Put the bev fridge where the pantry is (still have upper cabs for storage + extra storage in the island b/c the fridge is gone)

Another thought re: pantry is placing the microwave there. Something like image below
suezbell
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Putting your refrigerator against an outside wall with the entry door opening against it will not only bang up your refrigerator but could also make it difficult for you to open your refrigerator doors entirely in order to remove the shelves and/or veggie drawers for a thorough cleaning if your refrigerator hinge were to be on the left.

What is outside that exterior door -- any chance it is a porch or deck and you could change the hinged door for a sliding glass one?

If you know you will have a double door refrigerator, and since you could clean shelves without removing them, the remaining concern would be if you were planning to put a wall on the right side of the refrigerator. Wouldn't; just leave the side of the refrigerator show between the countertop and overhead cabinet and set your refrigerator far enough out so the cabinets don't interfere with opening the refrigerator door all the way.

Consider moving your wall ovens to the right: have the wall to the right of your wall ovens be even with the opening to the right of it so that you can put a wider countertop between the cooking surface and the ovens. You need space to set a large heavy pot on both sides of any cooktop.

Is the dining area within this kitchen your only dining area? If not, you might well consider other alternatives in lieu of both an island and a table -- you could create one very long island ...

... but only put base cabinets in the one end of it nearest the sink;

... or put base cabinets only on each end and put your beverage fridge on one end and other storage in the other end;

... or you could put your base cabinets and beverage fridge only in the middle with a "pedestal" table in the "dining" end of the kitchen and, perhaps, a "desk" end or a pedestal for seating for two nearer to the sink.

http://xlian.me/the-most-attractive-bar-height-kitchen-table-island-home-decor/kitchen-island-ideas-breakfast-bar-kitchen-island-spectacular-in-bar-height-kitchen-table-island-prepare/

You can keep the island countertop a rectangle the same width for its entire length and/or have it widen beyond the double ovens and still have room for your six chairs.

In a smaller kitchen, if at all possible, round the four corners of any rectangular island.
mama goose_gw zn6OH
6 years ago
silvero39, I rec'd your message. I can see my post above, when I'm signed in to houzz, but can't see it if I'm not signed in. I'd edited to add a couple of links at the end, so maybe I sent it into limbo. I can't add the images to a PM, so I'll just copy and paste the message in it's entirety here:

The
layout looks OK, but it would work much better with the fridge and
pantries switched--someone coming from the living areas will use the
fridge (even with a beverage fridge), more often than a pantry. With the
fridge on that wall there is no conflict with the back door.

Original plan on right/rearranged plan on left. Click to enlarge:

Sorry, I hit submit before I finished typing. My main concern is the
aisle width--the sink aisle seems to be only 30". which is much too
tight. I reduced the length of the island, and put the beverage center
on the end closer to the living areas, so that anyone looking for a
drink doesn't need to enter the prep and cooking spaces. The MW is
across from the fridge, since many items are taken directly from the
fridge for reheating.

I would suggest ROTS, or drawers for dishes, in the pantry beside the
DW. With clean-up and dish storage on that end of the wall, a helper
can unload the DW, or gather dishes to set the table, without entering
the prep and cooking zones. Some pantry items can be kept in the upper
cabinets closer to the range, where they will be convenient to the prep
and cooking zones.

Since you admittedly don't cook much, you will find a wealth of info
in the following thread, which was compiled by one of Gardenweb's most
dedicated kitchen planners:

[New to Kitchens? Read me first.[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first-dsvw-vd~4306041?n=585)

Also, excellent info in the NKBA guidelines.

Like
Save

9 hours ago
artistsharonva
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Be careful putting a fridge against an adjacent wall.

Avoid this

Previous posters pointed this out important concern.

This is a photo example why.

Get manual for fridge,installation instructions for door swing. Example what to look for

A space against wall or a tall wide enough filler will be needed. Also accommodate enough space to prevent handle hitting wall.
lisa_a
6 years ago
mamagoose, your first post didn't show up in the thread before I posted similar concerns and suggestions. I was signed in, too. How odd.

silvero39, I hope you heed the advice given by several of us and swap fridge and pantry locations. (Great visuals showing why it's a bad idea placing a fridge against a wall, artistsharonva).

I also hope you listen to my and mamagoose's concerns about your aisle widths and adjust your plan to make them workable.
lisa_a
6 years ago
I tweaked my above plan to include a banquette in the DR. I estimated your table at 36" x 60".
Fridge and range wall remain the same.

The pull-out pantry cab next to the sink has been replaced with a 33" drawer base and a GE Spacermaker MW in the upper cabinet. It would look like this:
Eclectic Kitchen · More Info

I increased the sink from 30" to 36", adjusting cabs on either side accordingly. If you spec a single bowl, offset drain sink, you'll be able to put a trash pull-out on the left side, like this (my kitchen):

Pantry storage has moved to the cabinets on either side of the banquette bench. It would be similar to this:
Traditional Kitchen · More Info

The bench is spec'd at 24" deep with drawers for additional storage. It would be similar to this:
Bluebell, PA traditional · More Info

Dimensions are based on the table overhanging the bench by 2".

With the table moved closer to the far left wall, there's room to increase the island's width from 45" to 60". I adjusted the island cab plan accordingly.HTH!
0
mama goose_gw zn6OH
6 years ago
lisa_a, it must have been bouncing around the ether-net--maybe there are still a few bugs houzz has not yet worked out. ;)

It's good to know that you agree with the same basic plan I posted, because I always admire your thoughtful and detailed layouts and explanations.
lisa_a
6 years ago
Thanks! I feel the same way, mamagoose!
lisa_a
6 years ago
You're welcome! Wishing you the best for your remodel!

And definitely rely on the wealth of wisdom here whenever you have questions. I learned so much as I prepared for my remodel. I know my kitchen would not be as wonderful as it is without all the help I got.