Tj,

what is that tree in your second picture? That’s so cool!

Oh, and sometimes it just works for a while. I had two knee high blue cedars planted (not sure what they really are) They looked healthy, but hardly grew in 3 years. So I made a flower bed with sun loving plants like coneflowers in between them. Worked for the past 7 years, but now they took off and it is getting a bit too shady. I am planning to get the flowers into a sunnier location and just plant more shade loving stuff there.

@IRIS- You will find it as Chamaecyparis nootkatensis 'Green Arrow'.

tj

I'm the same. I have enough trees elsewhere on my property and want to conserve every drop of sunlight possible.

Oh, I love shrubbery in beds! They act as anchors and focal points and add winter interest. Choose wisely - you want shrubbery that has top-notch foliage because let's face it that's what you're going to be looking at most of the time. There is a whole great big world of fantastic shrubs out there - different forms, foliage colors, bloom forms and bloom times.

Re: Mt Airy: Fothergilla is one of my favorite shrubs, and Mt Airy is a good one. It gets a good 5-6 feet, though; if that's too tall, there are dwarf cultivars available. Also consider "Blue Shadow" - the blue-green foliage is fantastic! Fall coloration on fothergilla is outstanding.

i you post pix of the spot.. we could discuss your ideas here ... ken

My problem with planting trees or even shrubs in a sunny flower garden is that they would shade my sun-loving plants. In my shady gardens along the brook, I have planted a few shrubs though.

"My problem with planting trees or even shrubs in a sunny flower garden is that they would shade my sun-loving plants."

Not necessarily true :-) It depends a great deal on how they are sited and what kind of trees and shrubs. I never design any garden bed that doesn't have a small tree or a number of shrubs to provide some critical height and structure, especially in a mostly herbaceous perennial garden. Otherwise it will be flat and bare for half the year!!

Hi! I’ve moved 8-foot tall red maples and taller crabapples 1 year after they were planted. They were fine. You could always find your shrubs and trees a new location if you don’t like how it looks!

In our full sun big front bed, there are trees on the north side. Planting them on the north side means they do not block the sun for the perennials. There are smaller shrubs in the bed too and the perennials don’t seem to be bothered by them.

"Otherwise it will be flat and bare for half the year!!"

Not my gardens!

I’m embracing trees and especially shrubs more and more the older I get. I like all the satisfaction and pleasure they give with a fraction of the maintenance of a flowers-only bed. There are options for nearly every situation. And the bird life in my yard increases with each new shrub planted.

How about a small, multi-stem tree? Crape myrtles are ideal but they would not work in your climate. They have a "see-through" quality that still allows you to plant all around them. Sorry, I could not find a better photo but you can see the rose is blooming to the north of the tree just fine. Perhaps a serviceberry, or chokeberry? The birds would love that!

The pine and cypress in the above shots don't fit well visually with the other plants in the beds, will eventually overwhelm their planting sites. The cypress is already getting close to the pavement.

If original poster is undertaking a large project it might be worth their while to hire a consultant or designer.

Don't be afraid to combine trees and shrubs with the perennials. I think it makes the garden feel more complete and it doesn't take too much thought and effort to let it evolve to incorporate everything without causing too many difficulties. Here are some pictures of our big front bed that incorporates everything but the kitchen sink! :-)

In these pictures from April 6 after a light snow you can see various shrubs, trees, and vines (on arbour and tuteur). The first view is from the front porch - the back of the bed is north. The second picture is from the road - the garage wall is west:

And here are some views of various areas during last year's growing season:

In May the young magnolias and serviceberry at the back (NW) of the bed:

Peonies near the center of the bed in June:

Lots going on in July!:

and into August:

September's highlight is when the Heptacodium tree blooms - and the monarch butterflies migrate and swarm it!

I don't unfortunately, have a lot of fall foliage color in the bed - but the neighbours' trees help with that :-)

So - go for it and add some interesting trees and shrubs! Do it a bit at a time and reassess as you go.... Have fun!

I'm not fond of trees in my flower beds, either; but I have started adding a few colorful shrubs. I like your approach, tj. If I like a plant, I'm going to add it. After all, most of us plant gardens to please ourselves. I'm no expert on color coordination or garden design; so some people might object to some of my placements. The people who stop by to view our gardens seem to enjoy then very much from the comments they make and the fact that they tell others to stop by. As far as shade in a flower garden. We started our yard from a clean slate on 2 1/2 acres 22 years ago without any experience in gardening. I had been a farmer all my life but didn't know much about flowers. Knowing what I do now, i would plant my sunny garden on the west side of a long row of trees. Some of you have much hotter summers than we do here in Iowa, but it still gets hot and I think almost all sun flowers appreciate some shade in the afternoon With trees on the west, most flowers will still get enough sun. Even our hardy hibiscus can use some respite on a hot day.

In my climate, many things do grow larger and more quickly than is sometimes ideal. I have been experimenting with shrubs you can coppice, like Cotinus (Royal Purple and Golden Spirit) as well as Sambucus and Dogwood (Cornus Alba 'Elegantissima'). Gardener Nan J Ondra even does it with big trees like catalpa, but I haven't been that brave yet. The cotinus leaves get huge and look magnificent in the mixed border.

Nan J Ondra on coppicing and cut back shrubs.

I'm with you, Kaillean, as to the ease of shrubbery and flowering trees. I have a lot of both and I love my trees and shrubs, but just not in my sunny flower beds. I've already seen the sunlight in two of my flower beds eclipsed by growing shrubbery and trees. They are now becoming home to shade-loving plants and flowers, and that's ok, but I intend to protect the supply of solar light in my 3 remaining gardens.

But... if I had it to do over, I would have planted only flowering bushes and no perennial plants in those sunny beds far from the house. You are so correct that they would require less care, and in my case, their blooms would be more visible from my house, which is quite a distance away. The older I get, the better that idea sounds, but hindsight is 20/20.

I agree you work with what you have. I’m saving one sunny border in the front to play with perennials. The backyard is shadier due to trees and shrubs so I’ve resigned myself to mostly shade gardening there. I’ve tried to limb up the overgrown rhododendrons that were here when I moved in for interest and underplanting. The effect can be nice though I have to thin the tops again.

Way to go, Ron (Embothrium). As we try to get deannatoby to overcome stereotypical design fears, you come in critiquing and suggesting they hire a professional. Nice job. LOL For the record, the internodes on the Pinus cembra suggest it will be a couple of decades before it outgrows its space and the perennials can be moved if it does. As for the 'Green Arrow', the fletchings are running parallel to the sidewalk and will also take a couple of decades, if ever, to be an issue. As for not fitting visually for you, well, they do for me and that was my point. Thank you for reinforcing it.

tj

I am no longer a spring chicken, and 10-20 years ago when I started putting in beds for which I had actually done some planning, I knew I wanted the structure and reduced maintenance that shrubs provided. I started with the shrubs and fit the perennials around them, so even if you have perennials in the bed, figure out where you want shrubs and shuffle the perennials as needed. I had a general plan, but didn't have a specific plant list (more like "medium sized gold conifer" or "short spring flowering broadleafed evergreen"), so when I had purchased them from what was available locally, I actually placed the shrub pots in the bed and then walked around looking at them from different angles and judged where they would look best keeping in mind the size 10-15 years down the road. You could place the pots in the beds and just live with them for a few days to see how you like them. Or just have shrubs where you see them from windows, and let the rest of the garden be only perennials. I do have some beds that don't have much in the way of winter interest but during snowy times look more like lawn, smooth and white, mostly in places where I want to see past the bed to a farther view in winter. I know that you sun area is limited, so you may end up deciding that you would prefer to reserve most of the sun for perennials. Since you are near the coast, I don't know how consistent the snow cover would be for you.

Woody, your garden is so beautifully designed and it goes perfectly with the house. I envy you all the trees and shrubs. Your magnolia and serviceberry combo is spring perfection.

Kaillean, I love your overgrown rhodies! I used to live in the PNW (and Vacouver) and now I miss that lush, green look, and the ability to work in the garden all year round.

Thanks Festiva Maxima (nice name! We think the double white peony back by the concrete bench is FM - it was a pass-along plant with no name so we’re not entirely sure....) The front garden - and all the rest too - represents 18 years of trial and error! It’s nice that some of the trees and other woody material are now getting somewhat mature. I’d love to have some of Kaillean’s big Rhodes though! Soil here is too alkaline for them - believe me, I’ve tried growing them several times with no luck *sigh*

Thank you to everybody! I will post photos of the space. I don't have a photo of the space with anything in it blooming because 80% of my perennials were started from seed last year and were both small and not in bloom. We'll have to imagine it with other flowers, but the bushes and shrubs are supposed to be anchors, so I suppose that is OK. I'm happy to move perennials around bushes, but I would like having some kind of confidence when I place the shrubs. I could see moving the occasional badly-placed one, but I'd hate to move the majority of them because of bad placement!

As far as sun, I've realized that many things in my garden do fine with part-sun, as well. My climate doesn't require any afternoon shade but I'm also not planning on putting any bushes on the south side of the gardens.

Time has been very short lately. Still plan on posting a picture of potential shrub areas. in the meantime I wanted to say how inspiring the picture are. tsugajunkie, sped, woodyoak, Kaillean, and NHBabs, the pictures are, as always, just fantastic. You all are better than a library! Woodyoak, the time progression picture is really an eye-opener. I'll be studying that more in the future!

I coppiced 2 large mulberry trees and an apple in my side yard that were simply too large, badly pruned by previous owners, and poorly sited to leave alone. Now they will regrow from the stumps and I can keep them shrub size with a pair of loppers and 20 minutes each year.

I have two serviceberry in tree form, plus numerous serviceberry shrubs. The "trees" are just the right size and provide dappled shade, in addition to Spring flowers. These were purchased years ago from a plant/tree sale at the local agricultural center and school. They had pruned and trained several that year, and the next. I even used to see them at a nursery around that time, but not for a long while now. I wish I could buy a couple more. Not sure I have the knack to do it myself.

Although I’m not in the least afraid of using trees and shrubs in the garden, I’m very fond of the look of bare ground in the winter. I find that a large area or field of bare ground in the winter looks clean and peaceful, like a bare slate, or bare canvas. It can have wonderful winter interest from undulating ground, particularly if covered by snow, when the low winter sunlight casts ever-changing shadows. Then, in the spring, when things start to pop out of the ground, it’s like magic, or like watching a painter create an entire world from that blank canvas. And every year, you can experience that magic again. Maintenance is a lot easier as well, since you can just run a lawnmower over everything once everything is dormant, or leave the seed heads and faded stems for interest for a while. With shrubs and trees, you have to work around them. There are many examples of this style of gardening, mostly called “Prairie” style, but a prime example of this is the Lurie Garden, or many of Piet Oudolf's designs, or even earlier, the works of Oehme Van Sweden. Photos off the web of the Lurie Garden:

Of course, that being said (sorry, I didn't mean to be so long winded about it), my garden has a lot of woody plants in it, because lavender does very well here, and I’m on a rose kick. Shade is important here, although large trees are difficult to garden under since to survive here, they must be able to grow in very dry soil, and that of course, means that the remaining moisture is even lower. Then there are the roots to contend with. When I moved into this house, there was a very pretty little maple tree in the back yard that was too small to block the hot afternoon sun from the dining area, which is what it seemed it was planted for. Now, that little tree is about 40 feet wide and is a challenge to garden under for the above reasons, and it blocks the sunset views. Obviously the sun loving plants that were there had to come out. Can’t have it both ways.

But back to your dilemma. Some people plant woody plants, like Korean Fir as an accent, knowing that in 5 years or so, it will become too big. After that time, they remove it and plant another small one. Personally, I don’t like that idea, but it’s no different than buying an orchid plant that gets thrown away after it has finished blooming. But my point is that trees might not have to be a permanent a decision as you might imagine. You could also learn photoshop or get various software applications where you can take images of your garden and insert images of trees to see how it would look before you plant.

Had to share this pic of my little baby magnolia Genie blooming it’s head off in the front bed. Can’t wait for it to get bigger. (That empty pot is waiting for some annuals to spill out of it.)

Kaillean, I just saw a Magnolia at a nursery this morning with blooms similar in color to yours and it took my breath away. So beautiful! I love the heathers and pansies blooming with it, too.

Thanks Deanna. I love it too. I’ve always wanted a magnolia and found this one a couple of years ago. The first year it only had 3 blooms. This year it has 25. The colour gets a lot of people stopping by to ask about it.

Oooh that Genie is a beauty!