You're happy, that's all that matters.

To be honest, I'm actually a little disappointed when my bread has too many large holes.

CindyMac, you make a beautiful French bread, don't you? You remind me of what DH said when I showed it to him, all proud and glowing (although that might have been perspiration and overheating from tromping around the yard): "That's nice babe, but doesn't that mean there's less bread to eat?"

Made croutons today, and used whole wheat - thought about sacrificing some of the holey bread, but felt it would be better used elsewhere : )

ETA: I would like to know how this was achieved, as nothing changed other than using a grill rather than oven. Perhaps that was it?

To be honest, I'm actually a little disappointed when my bread has too many large holes.

Thank you for saying that. I'm completely confused as to why you would want giant holes in bread unless it's for extra instagram-iness. After all, unless you plan to eat plain bread (and then cf CindyMac's DH), it's just a nuisance when butter, jam, or sandwich fillings glop in through, so I totally don't understand this.

Gently Edited because I misunderstood a comment – my fault:

writersblock, one reason is the holes - which are more like mini craters, make a kind of spoon to hold sweet or savory flavors, like honey, or gravy.

Artisan bread isn’t a substitute for sandwich bread as it has a different chew, crust, and flavor, as well as absorption.

I did not mean for it to come off as a brag or Instagram show-off (assumed this was the implication as I'm not on Instagram or familiar with it) and would prefer to edit or delete the above comment if it seems that way. (Assumed wrong as I understand now)

I remain grateful to ann_t for her help and advice. I will always be thrilled I somehow by accident achieved what I baked yesterday, and will continue to wonder how, though it is clearly not to others preference, which is fine, we all have different tastes.

For what it's worth, there is a difference between sandwich and artisan breads.

My deepest apologies to anyone who thinks this was a "showoff" post. Sincerely, the post was not meant as such. Only wishing to share the joy of baking something I felt good about, sharing the recipe which was shared with me, as I see others do.

My pc just died, so am posting on my phone. Probably won't post much more anytime soon, and mention this as I don't want anyone to think I'm off pouting, as I am not :)

As for the holes..I think its about the texture or the crumb I think you delightful kids call it.

2Many your loaf looks like perfection. I could really go for a slice toasted as AnnT toasts.

Again, gently Edited due to my own misinterpretation:

Thank you mamapinky0, that's very kind of you.

I do bake sandwich breads, primarily for sandwiches and breakfast toasts. If anyone is wondering why the holes... it tends to be a higher hydration dough (wetter) which can create different flavor, aroma, and as mamapinky0 said, texture - all breads are not created equal - some are dense, some light, some have more or less or different flavors, different crusts, and chew. I use artisan for toast and lunch/dinner sandwiches. It tastes particularly good with meats. Or DH and I think so.

My comment could have been made for any of Ann's breads too. I just don't care for a lot of large holes. Like I said, I'm disappointed when mine have too many. Doesn't stop my dh from eating them. I even have a slice or two every now and then. The flavor is what does it for me.

"That's nice babe, but doesn't that mean there's less bread to eat?"

My dh has made a similar comment with a smile on his face.

I did not mean for it to come off as a brag or Instagram show-off (assume this was the implication as I'm not on Instagram or familiar with it)

Oh no, 2Many, I didn't mean that about you at all, just that it seems like so many of the ways in which food is more about the eye than the the mouth these days. I was hoping someone could explain why this is suddenly desirable--I was never in a bakery in France where they made the holes the big deal, and I genuinely do not understand why this is the "holey grail," and at this point I still don't.

I take your word for it that this is somehow fabulous, but I wish someone would tell me why, because I just don't get it.

I deeply apologize if you took that I was criticizing you for showing your bread.

2ManyDiversions, I'm excited for you. I love when someone achieves what they were going for. Sounds like you did every thing right. As I have told many, bread is very forgiving so even with your little accident your bread was still amazing.

Just means that you developed the gluten well and the dough was well hydrated. And you have the shine. Well done 2ManyDiversions. That is something that bakers strive for and have trouble achieving.

As for the holes, it just depends on what you plan to use the bread for. If you are making sandwiches with wet fillings, than slicing the baguette lengthwise allows the filling to seep into the craters, but not drip all over because the crust is on the outside. Personally I love this bread toasted. All the butter seeping into the holes. Yum!!!!

If you want a traditional sandwich bread, than you use a different recipe.

That is something that bakers strive for and have trouble achieving.

Great, and kudos to 2Many for achieving it--I mean that sincerely, 2Many--but can you please tell me why this is what bakers strive for, ann_t, 2Many, or anyone else?

I do understand that not all bread is sandwich bread, of course, but I still don't see why giant holes are so superior to small ones, for any of the uses of bread, sorry.

Can someone please explain this?

I think the point of the big holes in bread is that you can them and not gain any weight.

Writersblock, it just depends on what type of bread that you want to make. It isn't that one is superior to another. But, there is a certain criteria that different breads are judged by. A perfect baguette will have holes. Ciabatta bread has even bigger holes. It isn't just about the holes either, it is about the crust and the flavour. All are related to the development of the gluten, the hydration and the fermentation.

If you don't like the holes or the texture of a traditional baguette or Ciabatta, there are many breads that have a more close or tighter crumb.

Thank you, ann_t. That helps some, but I presume the holes must be an indicator of some other quality. What is that, please?

I have no preference one way or another, since my allergist says, "no wheat," so my life is mostly breadless and therefore I've never delved into the art and science of breadmaking beyond the basic yeast bread and rolls I used to make in my younger days.

I'm just trying to understand why the large holes are awesome.

2MD, So what is wrong about showing off? Show off = sharing.

Writersblock, size of holes is an indicator of bread texture. Big holes are good for some styles of bread, but I don't think beyond some point bigger is better.

Bread making can be extremely simple, or you can spend $600 to get the 6 volume, 2600 page book by Nathan Myhrvold, Francisco Migoya

Modernist
Bread: The Art and Science

It does not even have pizza making, which will be another series of books.

dcarch

Writersblock, It has a lot to do with the development of flavour so when you give a dough a longer, cold fermentation, you are going to end up with more flavour, as well as the holey crumb. Here is a link that describes the perfect baguette better than I can.

This type of bread is perfect to voonge! For those unfamiliar with the term, it means to use a piece of bread to sop up the leftover sauce on your plate or in your bowl. Most commonly done in Italian restaurants. Those holes can hold many delicious morsels that an inferior bread would leave behind.

A round of applause for the baker!

Eventually I'll try my hand at bread. A few of you have pointed me in the right direction awhile ago Thank You. I don't buy grocery store breads...there's a little family owned bakery in town that I like where I get my bread. No preservatives or other chemicals just standard ingredients. A few weeks ago I ask them if they could make me some ciabatta rolls with holes lol...the baker laughed and told me she sure could but since she doesn't make them daily I'd need to give her a week. They were wonderful. Lots of holes and craters and a wonderful crust. I like them toasted extra well in the toaster oven and than buttered sometimes with jam. Yumm. My point is I hate regular sandwich bread. I don't like the mouth feel....it reminds me of...well lets just say something gross. Wet bread literally gags me so I don't do sandwiches or toast or dinner rolls. The ciabatta rolls are different...even used to scrape up some gravy from a beef stew it stays crunchy crisp throughout the chew. For me this is what I've found with the holey breads...a bread I can eat that doesn't get soggy even during the chew. Anyway now I can enjoy the occasional bread.

PS....nope I do not eat bread pudding. Haha

I grew up with "French" bread, living in or near San Francisco. I have attempted to reproduce the structure without enough success, but I have not made the effort that 2Many has impressively demonstrated. I have been very impressed with ann_T's results and one day plan to reread her info and links more seriously. 2Many is especially impressive for the short time it took to develop dramatic results.

Personally, I would not want what I believe are overly large holes, that a couple folks have commented on, but they are proof of process, even if not clearly delineated so far, but it means that 2many has narrowed the processes to very few manipulations. I suspect the rising times rather than the BBQ, but I guess we may have to wait a year to get back to oven research.

Thank you, ann_t; that was very helpful.

2MD, So what is wrong about showing off? Show off = sharing.

Agree 100%, dcarch.

This type of bread is perfect to voonge!

Ah, yes, I can see that, thanks, Ricky.

2many, it looks perfect to me, show off to your heart's content!

I'm not a real fan of sandwiches, so I don't use much sandwich bread. I typically eat one slice of bread daily, that would be toast with an over easy egg for breakfast. I avoid things like sub sandwiches and those other giant concoctions, as I always throw at least half of the bread away.

I find that the "hole-y" bread tends to be chewier and more substantial, it can stand up to a bowl of chili or my soft egg and not get soggy or fall apart. It is about taste, of course, all the types of bread taste good to me, but it's far more about texture. As Ricky mentioned, that type of bread is good to mop up the last of the sauce, or dunk into a bowl of chili or catch the melting butter when toasted.

Annie

writersblock: Thank you so much for clarifying – I’ve gently edited my posts above and hope they meet with your approval – sorry I didn’t do so sooner as my desktop died just after posting and I got rather busy setting up an old backup. I don’t type on my phone very well – takes me forever! While I very much appreciate your apology, it is me that needs to as I misunderstood, so I apologize to you!

“just that it seems like so many of the ways in which food is more about the eye than the the mouth these days.” Good comment and valid question above. I agree there can be too much emphasis on looks over flavor, but I think both play an important role – most of us eat with our eyes and noses first, then our taste buds. I’m sorry you can’t enjoy bread as you used to… I understand that frustration as I have to avoid heavy citrus now, and miss a big glass of fresh orange juice and lemonade!

I believe others have answered your valid question “why the holes” better than I could have! Thank you all!

For what it’s worth, the bread above is a close up of a large potato-sized batard – so it’s pretty small, and the shot of the ‘holes’ is a closeup. You can see the ‘crumb craters’ as I call them, that hold gravy, butter, hearty sandwich spreads inside them : )

ann_t, you saw the shine! As my bread mentor, I sure wanted you do see my progress and am thrilled you popped in! I had a better photo showing the shine but didn’t upload it. I let this bread rise the same time, but the difference was the pizza stone and the grill – sure hope I can replicate it as we enjoyed in so much this weekend!

I think you’ve done an amazing job at describing the uses of the pockets/holes, the flavor difference, texture difference.

dcarch, as always, your words are so kind – thank you. I agree, a bread with only massive holes would be useless. It needs ‘pockets’! I admit, I am proud of this loaf.

Ricky (fawnbridge), I’d never heard of ‘voonge’ but clearly I do it, a lot! We used this loaf to voonge gravy and bits from beef tips : ) Thank you for the kudos!

Photos for uploading · More Info

mamapinky0 – wonderful descriptions of ciabatta and artisan breads – makes me hungry for it right now – and how blessed you are to have a bakery to make it for you!

I like all breads – white and whole wheat sandwich for our lunches, and eggs on toast, savory for cheese and herb breads, uber-soft Hokkaido for melt-in-the-mouth dinner rolls and decadent French toast – and yes, even bread pudding. DH and I love the crust of artisan, the pockets that hold flavor, and the ability of this bread to hold up to moisture over regular sandwich bread – but the flavor is also quite good. We all have our preferences : )

Hi chas045! Seems you’ve been following posts! The credit really goes to ann_t, who in her recipe (link above) explains the entire process and includes wonderful photos. I thought it was the grill – my first pizza on the grill had nice holes and pockets accompanied with an excellent crust, but the 2nd was like my cast iron in the oven pizza… I suspect it’s the wetter dough, among other things.

As with my first attempts decades ago with white bread, there came a point when it was muscle memory while kneading – it just felt and looked right at some point. Hopefully I can attain this over the next year on a consistent basis with artisan.

annie1992, thank you! I’ve seen photos of your breads – and your bread always looks better than mine (and while it’s not about looks, when bread looks right, it tastes right) – and you explained it so well also, the artisan is chewier and more substantial. Chewier does not equate to ‘tough’ in case anyone who hasn’t tried it is wondering.

.

I started making artisan bread a few years back, but it was rather tasteless and touch, rather than chewy. The crust was like concrete also – and my pizza could not hold up to sauces, so I just stopped all attempts. ann_t’s tutelage and recipe have improved my recent efforts to the point we prefer this over sandwich breads now. I’m hoping others who want to try artisan breads will be encouraged to! I’ve learned some wonderful lessons in bread-making, but the biggest lesson which ann_t taught me: Don’t be afraid of the dough – it can take a lot!

CindyMac, I'm thinking our husbands are related somehow ; ) I chuckled that yours had the same thought as mine! Aren't they wonderful in their observations?!

a large potato-sized batard – so it’s pretty small, and the shot of the ‘holes’ is a closeup.

Ah, thanks for that. I thought it was a much bigger circumference. Your photo for Ricky helps clarify things a lot, too.

writersblock, Yep, I didn't realize how it would appear until it was posted, and also, I took a quick shot of the first slice, which had the biggest holes... One never knows the hole sizes as one slices... the one in the photo for Ricky is more like the rest and was sliced just after the middle. I did make a mistake... sliced straight, and typically it's better at a diagonal (ann_t mentioned this, I believe) to keep the holes closed to hold things (butter, jam, honey, gravy, et al.) I do like some open holes for the texture.

This bread makes lovely crostinis too.

For those that asked about the holes, here is why I love this style of bread.

Oh my, AnnT, that looks amazing.

For what it's worth, I also cut mine on the diagonal, so the hole doesn't go straight through, it does help trap the melting butter.

Annie

I don't get the 'bragging' bit. That is just sharing some success glee. I just took some dough out from making three big boules last weekend. We shall see. : )

A link upper left is a 'general discussion' where many from other sections in Houzz will "post peep' and comment. I prefer to stick to 'what's for dinner' for the most part as the 'peepers' rarely comment there.

Holey Easter Boule Batman. We rushed it making so many and still ended up exactly what we wanted, using it for charcuterie. Two halves on the sideboard and family just tears off bits needed. Made two different Bagna Cauda.

Even with some added whole wheat we got good crumb and crust for dipping.

Aaaaaaaah.... look at your ears, practically elephant sized! Just. Look. At. That. Beautiful boule! Holey whole wheat, Batman! how did you manage that bread with even a drop of whole wheat flour?! A-mazin!

Gotcha about the What's for Dinner... thank you sleevendog : )

Your comment on W for D about your next bread? Kinda reminds me of your comments about your pies... and I saw how that blueberry creation turned out! A-mazin : )

ps, DH is the bread baker and pie crust creator. I usually fail like the pie crust bricks I made 'prepped ahead' for Thanksgiving, not looking at the flour label correctly...it was whole wheat. oops.

not looking at the flour label correctly...it was whole wheat. oops.

Oh, that had me laughing out loud! And you did it ahead of time? So the truth comes out, now ; ) Tell your DH his ears are to die for and he has lovely holes! Wait... we are on the cooking forum...

Lucky you! My DH can't cook anything. He once told me he made his own lasagna. Almost believed him until he told me he 'fried' the noodles.