hey don.. slummin in the tree forum .... peeps .. don is a hosta freak ... and a list freak .. and i love him for both .... i will guess .. he wants to make a lists of trees ... that are favorable to garden under ... based on the aggressiveness of the root system ... and he has been to my place a few times .... go figure on that ... lol .. who knows about his choice of friends .... so what he MIGHT be looking for.. is a list of trees with tendencies toward fibrous root systems that interfere with the growth of the plants under ... but not limited to fibrous roots .... IN MY EXPERIENCE .... maple.. especially norway .. and JM [anything with acer as its first name] willow mulberry birch liquidamber [sweetgum] apple [including crab, as they sucker every time you sever a root] and now the coffee has clicked in.. and i am totally blanking.. lol ... more later.. maybe ... when i moved here and tried to get the same answers.. i was told.. by a myriad of hosta growers.. that.. IN GENERAL ... all nut trees are favorable to being deep rooted.. and allowed companion plants .. and ergo .. i went with a lot of oak ... red, scarlet,black, shingle [imbricaria??], white [bicolor?] ... and as far as my hosta peeps have said.. jugulone is not an issue under walnut ... for hosta ... absolutely no experience with live oak though ... and i had a hickory at the old house that seemed to create no problems ... all that said.. growing things under trees.. the root issue is not as important.. as watering.. as gal mentioned ... specific growing conditions ... extremely mature trees .. tend to create deserts under them ... and you need to provide the water the hosta needs ... if the plant gets the water.. then they can co-habitate in a friendly way ... but under some trees.. it is NOT going to be a plant and forget situation ... at least until the intruder achieves some level of 'establishment' ... in other words.. slap a babe in there.. and the tree might win .... as compared to inserting a mature large plant.. which can fend for itself ... or compete with the tree ... given a reasonable amount of supplemental water getting the invader ESTABLISHED ... is imperative .. for it to try to compete on a successful basis ... am i on point don???? does this help the rest of you give don extra trees for the lists ... good luck ken

Happy Holidays, to Chris and Kim. I appreciate Kim's experience and logic. My neighbor ordered a big pile of dirt mixed with mushroom compost (horse manure & brown bedding). I tested the pH of his dirt, it's slightly less blue in red cabbage juice than mine (pH 7.7). At first he got the darkest green lawn in the neighborhood. But his lawn looked worst when there's hot weather and no rain, thanks to the salt content. Mike_Rivers, a retired chemist, mentioned that horse manure is 1/4 the salt of other manures, with chicken manure the highest (per University of Colorado's data). I thought I could turn my azaleas and rhododrendrons dark-green by using acid fertilizer Lilly Miller 10-5-4 with chicken manure, but I killed 2 rhodos by using it 3 times: 10+10+10 equals 30 in Nitrogen, that's much higher than the 0.7 nitrogen per horse manure application. Sulfur is useless in turning my acid-plants dark green, it's the chelated iron that does the job. I tested Espoma garden sulfur on my acid plants, and they are still yellow. For salt content, most damaging is urea and ammonium nitrate, around 80% salt index, it's like dumping a cup of salt on your rose bush. The lowest in nitrogen is anhydrous ammonia at 47%, but I don't see listed anywhere. Phosphorus: superphosphate is lowest in salt, at 7.8, and triple superphosphate at 10. For potassium, monopotassium phosphate (52% P and 35% K), has lowest salt at 8.4, and potassium chloride, use to de-ice in cold zone is a killer with 116.2%. For organic sources, grass clippings, alfalfa, leaves are lowest, then blood meal, then horse manure, cow manure, and highest salt is chicken manure (also highest in nitrogen). Here is a link that might be useful: University of Illinois data on salt index

Hmm, now I think I'm a little confused. While I agree just adding mulch around my sunken bushes would be a lot easier, Mike indicated that it would probably encourage rooting of the buried sprouts and leave me with more than one bush in the hole. While several of my older (grafted) roses seem to have self-rooted themselves over the years with no ill-effect, they tended to do it some distance from the original roots whereas my problem plants are just 1-year old own-root babies (though it is hard to call Abe Darby a baby when he is waving his massive shoots around). Seeing as I'm in LA where keeping plants moist is more of a problem than drainage, I don't mind my roots being covered by quite a bit of mulch, but we're talking over a foot here! Of course after a week of rain and mist -- when moving would have been less fraught -- we're now having hot dry windy weather so I'll probably hold off a little bit in any case (in the event someone else wants to weigh in!) I am so grateful for this forum and the knowledgeable people willing to share their experience. Thanks to you all.

Rifis, I'm happy and relieved to hear you say you plant roses in holes with no native soil with success. I've planted all of my roses that way. I know it's not recommended. For roses that I know prefer alkaline soil, I will mix in a shovelful or two of my soil. if I remember to. My soil is hard rocky pale gray alkaline clay that is like glue when wet and like talcum powder when dry. I could envision it forming concrete around the delicate roots. I use compost, a little vermiculite and rose food mixed together then fill the 2'x2' hole. My compost is not the super rich home made kind. I get a truck load of plant based compost every couple years, so I doubt it's as nutrient rich as homemade. I have planted roses in just my native soil, and none have survived. I can't imagine a root penetrating this soil when my husband needs a pick axe to dig holes. However, weeds seem to manage it quite well. I always scruff up the sides of the holes with a claw so it isn't slick like a pot. Thinking back, I have stuck cuttings from pruning directly in the ground and had them take. (John Davis and Roseraie de l'Hay). Wi-Fi, the same thing has happen to me. The soil level can sink after watering (or rain) and I have had to dig them up and replant. I plant grafted/budded roses with the graft union at least 4" deep for my cold zone. If I water as I'm filling the hole with planting medium and let it soak in before adding more planting medium, and keep repeating that, there is less chance of it sinking with one major watering when I'm finished, and I know the water has gone all the way to the bottom of the hole. I hope your rain lets up and you can get back to normal gardening soon. It's a wet year for many. Your Queen of Sweden looks healthy and happy.