,I 100% agree with what you say about , “it is no big deal”, because that many short falls on one job is a big deal.

I am confused. You state it's a small LOCAL AND CUSTOM shop. then you say........

. Moreover, if I am in the right, what should I expect when I talk to the representative from the cabinetmaker’s company?

Which is it? Is EVERY single component of the box made on site, or are door and drawer faces ordered in, stained and assembled at the shop? They are two different things.

That said, your lengthy laundry list, most of which is minor and hidden behind door nobody ( even you) will ever see? The details you desire, countersunk screws with COVERS.......?? would go with a 200k kitchen!! If they even existed there.

The other issues, such as minimal drawer gap and alignment are install issues of adjustment on site. Request a detail crew to address those issues.

No disrespect intended, but given you are mounting a microwave over a cook, I sincerely doubt this is a 200k kitchen, and you are armed with unrealistic expectation even for a 200k kitchen.

I would POLITELY explain dissatisfaction with the minor install adjusting that may not have taken place, that can be SEEN . I would not expect little screw covers inside,.. It seems most of your issues are with install, and not with the actual cabinetry. If you need the drywall holes fixed? Request that as well. And then I would get busy enjoying my kitchen, which I am sure is if you post a finished picture......absolutely fine.

Stop watching sausage get made. You need to take a chill pill and let them do their work.

Adjusting doors, touch ups, and 70% of what is on your list is not addressed until the very last of the job that does not happen until after the counters go on. The other 30% is make work worry over nothing.

If doors do not have gaps between them, they physically cannot open. If you wanna kitchen that you can put your plates it, it includes having operable doors. With small gaps between them.

What would concern me possibly the most is the apparent drywall screws holding the cabinets in and not cabinet screws.

I see square drive wood screws, which aren’t cabinet screws, but acceptable, and a drywall screw. If the majority are the square drive, and the back is load bearing ply instead of a hanger rail system, it’s fine. As long as there are not more drywall screws.

The other thing I see is a loose definition of custom that uses a spray stain toner to begin with instead of a hand wiped one. Those details should have been discussed on the front end, and if the construction methodology was acceptable, then the quality level of the project is set far long before the install. It’s too late to expect fine furniture quality and Norm Abrams when much lower quality parameters were specified to begin with. A custom specified Chevy Sonic is still a custom vehicle but it ain’t a RR Silver Shadow.

As I said........" The cabinet makers representative" ?? This is a semi custom kitchen at BEST. Ninety nine percent of the issues are total minutae.never again seen by owner or guest when in use. Not likely to fall off the walls anytime soon either, is my guess. All other minutae, such as drawer gap alignment easily addressed at completion.

I agree with all the above and the shims are because your wall is not perfect just like the rest of us.Just because some relative 60 yrs ago did something does not mean it will happen the same way now.

All my kitchen doors have a very small gap ..the should have used a stud finder they a simple to use ..i use one in the house to find studs and electric wires mine does both ... and as to shims on the floor..you should have seen the crap under my cabinets when the had finished ..men just don't clean up as well as women ..out sight etc !

Thank you all for your comments.

Jan, it is a small family owned company located within an hour of my home - all the work is done on-site from ordering the wood for the cabinets and building the cabinets to staining the cabinets and then installing the cabinets once ready.

Sophie, I (like you) anticipated the cabinets would be hand stained. I re-read the contract and it does not specify how the stain will be applied.

Milworkman, the screw used between cabinet and wall are the same throughout as far as I can tell. In each case it required a tool with a square tip for installation. In most cases, the screws are going into an actual stud. In one case, I noticed three screws are used and all are at odd angles. I don't know if they ever found a stud for the back of that cabinet (they are in a stud on the side of the cabinet to the wall). Because of all the lined up holes used to search for studs, I can tell where screws are lined up with the stud in most cases.

I agree many of the issues are minor and did not write my note until after the installer indicated they were finished. It is actually the number of minor issues that makes it so disappointing. The holes for screws, plumbing and electrical are what stand out to me as as more major and they will be visible even after counter tops are installed. I think about how I will see the back of the cabinet every time I clean under the sink. Granted that is not often, but often enough when knowing I will re-experience that sinking feeling in my gut no matter what the interval. As it turns out, the issue with number 14 above is that the wood split in the cabinet above the refrigerator - it is not a scratch or gouge. I am not sure what remedy is considered appropriate for this type issue.

Again, thank you for your comments and insights they are extremely helpful for a novice like me. I am glad forums like this exist to help explain what is considered customary and standard for various industries for home owners who are working outside of their comfort zone.

Wow your under sink cabinet actually has a wood back. When I look into mine, I see drywall with oversized holes for the plumbing to come out of. No back at all. I actually think the way they cut that out is fairly clever and nice looking, considering.

Not a pro but...I would have used a block or shim to put a mounting screw through behind any cabinet with a gap between the back and the wall. Just for stability.

Visible screws inside a drawer front to hold the front on are more or less OK, but sticking out at an angle seems sloppy to me. That screw could just as easily have been put in from the outside of the drawer and you'd never see it unless the drawer was open and you looked for it. Instead the head is sticking out permanently into the drawer. It doesn't seem like the best workmanship to me.

Boxes are often custom built. Drawer faces and doors are often " ordered" by your "custom " cabinet maker and he stains or paints. It's a blend of custom and semi in fact.

The more major point is you are unreasonably "disappointed" . Paying money, ANY amount in fact, does not actually always guarantee perfection. You are not going to stare under a sink base ! Nor will anyone else! Had you said..... I want the inside of my sink cabinet to look as finished as the exterior?! I guarantee you'd have abandoned the idea when shown the price tag. Kindly put, you are focused on nothing burgers. Start enjoying the MEAL! Please

I am surprised by some of the responses?

Anyway it looks like the cabinet builder hired or sublet the installation out. Just because they say they work there or have t shirts doesn't mean they actually build and install.

Craftsmanship should extend to the instal. Cabinet to wall screws should be uniform and driven straight. A simple chamfer bit and the correct screws would give a more finished look. If you look on Amazon or ? you can purchase small stick on covers fro the screw heads. If they were done more uniform you probably wouldn't have noticed.

the underside of cabinets or those covered by appliances are a non issue but they become one when you notice the other shoddy instal issues.

I have no idea why you have screws angled on those drawers but I can guess that i show they are attaching their drawer fronts?

The cut outs for undersink could have been been cut better but usually they are just open. Use a touch up pencil on the cuts and when you fill the cab they will disappear.

The door gaps can be adjusted the hinges are usually adjustable and yes they could be closed up a 1/16" to narrow them up.

They should have cleaned up and the idea that a woman or a man cleans up better is just sexist and ridiculous. they should have cleaned up.

My opinion here? I would take a ride by this so called custom cabinet shop. I suspect they arent actually making the cabinets. Someone with the skill to make dovetail joints isn't going to drive a sheetrock screw into a drawer. The other oddity is the stained interiors? Sorry but these do not look custom made. Anybody who makes cabinets can see the construction doesn't look like a real custom cabinet shop made these. The look like mail order cabinets. Sorry.

In the end have them come readjust and conceal the crew heads and all should be ok.

wannabath...*They should have cleaned up and the idea that a woman or a man cleans up better is just sexist and ridiculous. they should have cleaned up.* Not a sexist or ridiculous remark ... just one of experience over the years ..builders never clean up to the standard you would like !

I'm sorry your cabinets didn't turn out as you expected. I can imagine how you feel. I hope you can come to a good resolution and enjoy your new kitchen. :)

Joseph, I need clarification related to a statement posted, " Screws through cabinets without proper shimming as you've pictured will "rack" (pull cabinets out of square) cabinets, affecting drawer and door function."

Is that a reference to what is seen in these two photos where the screw goes from the cabinet to the drywall to the stud with an area between the cabinet and drywall showing a portion is exposed?

Is the standard practice to put wooden shims or blocks of wood between the cabinet and drywall? If yes, does eliminating exposure of the screw improve stability or just make an area that will be unseen in the end (after counter top installation) look more finished for the short time that the installation process is exposed?

Thank you Sana-DF,

you wrote: "Again, thank you for your comments and insights they are extremely helpful for a novice like me. I am glad forums like this exist to help explain what is considered customary and standard for various industries for home owners who are working outside of their comfort zone."

There are many of us on Houzz who are out of our comfort zones. Your post helps those of us doing Kitchen renovations learn what to expect or not expect. My wish for you is that you get the information you need so that you can be armed with knowledge to tackle what you want to have the kitchen you want.

As someone who recently completed a renovation, I would urge you not to nit pick every little thing ... First, nothing is perfect but second, you will wear them out and when you have a big issue they won’t listen. Pick the significant visible issues and address them with your cabinet maker...let the rest go. Contractors are messy and only broom clean. It is normal to expect you would need to wipe down cabinets before you can use them and wash floors etc... and don’t even get me started on contractors/ work people using your bathroom ugh. Just be glad they are done.

Several individuals responding to my post asked questions or sought clarification on the screws used between the cabinet and the drywall to the stud. I have taken three pictures ( I have a screw going through the back of the cabinet into the back wall of the kitchen) to show the side of a screw as it looks screwed in an angle, the front of the screw to see what the head of the screw looks like and the same screw from the area between the back of the cabinet and the drywall. I can say (because the screws are screwed in at an angle) that the nut is attached to the screw. It is one piece - it is not two separate pieces.

My concern with this issue was always about the security of the installation of the cabinets. The particular screw I selected when taking the three pictures is not put into a stud. I was able to tell this by nailing a 2 inch nail right above where the screw enters the drywall. Because there is no stud behind the drywall in this area, it was easy to remove the nail with my fingers. In most cases, the screw does mount to a stud on the other side of the drywall (I checked).

Also, related to my previous post showing pictures of exposed screws, it was not an issue of the squareness of the walls (although that is an issue for our 80 year old home), but was intentionally done to accommodate the window sill. We needed to be able to open drawers very close to a window sill and did not want the drawers to damage or become damaged by the sill.

This was a terrible installation job by a guy that did not know what he was doing. Screws should have pilot holes drilled so when drilled in they are flush with the cabinet wall and should be straight. Drywall screws are weak and snap easily, especially cheap ones, and should never be used to install cabinets. The holes for the plumbing pipes are not bad. It looks like you will be able to remove the portion of the cabinet that was cut in a square and then drilled if there is ever a need for plumbing repair. The holes cut for the water lines just need to be filled. If I have a gap between the wall and the cabinet I secure a strip of wood to the wall studs and then screw the cabinet into it. The electrical outlet needs to be moved. It looks like you cannot install a face plate on it and even plug in the appliance? Cabinets should be screwed together for alignment and strength, not left freestanding. The studs should have been located and marked before the installation, you do not drill holes into cabinets hoping to find one. If you are finding screws that are not drilled into a wall stud then they need to be removed and fixed. This was not a "difficult" install and I am not even a "pro".

toxcrusadr, Wow your under sink cabinet actually has a wood back. When I look into mine, I see drywall with oversized holes for the plumbing to come out of.

Your cabinets are stick built - original, built-in-place cabinets. Not pre-built cabinet boxes.

"Contractors are messy and only broom clean."

I wouldn't lump all contractors into one group of slobs. I've worked with countless contractors and a good many of them pride themselves on leaving a clean jobsite when they are done. One example: I recently had new wood floors installed throughout my home and the contractor cleaned every inch of them on his hands and knees at the end of the job and left my home spotless.

I, too, am surprised by some of the comments here. Craftsmanship extends into the areas that are not visible as well. As soon as someone says, "You're never going to see that" I begin wondering what other sins they are covering up.

"As soon as someone says, "You're never going to see that" I begin wondering what other sins they are covering up."

Similar to a repairman having fasteners and parts left over after job is finished (it didn't need those anyhow).

I am with the op...these things would bother me. It’s disheartening to see the pileup of these minor issues. I wouldn’t expect the exposed screws to be covered, but I would expect them to be properly countersunk and flat so there is no danger of cutting oneself on them. I shouldn’t have to be careful or be concerned I’ll cut myself every time I open a drawer or stick my hand inside a cabinet. My expectation is that things will be done neatly and with care. Not sloppy, not crooked, not half baked. I would not want holes in my sheetrock either (even though they will be hidden behind the cabinets). The more holes, the easier the access for bugs and critters to find their way into the living space of my home. During our construction, every crack and crevice was filled in around plumbing and electrical (this was code I believe), along with every visible opening and crack in the wood sheeting/studs etc....everything was completely sealed. I would want my sheetrock to be an additional barrier to intrusion as well.

Unfortunately, sloppy work is pretty much the norm theses days in the building/remodel world. The level of care as well as expertise is severely lacking.

I end up being the one who cleans up after our subs. I have pulled out tons of trash from inside walls that will never be seen by anyone...but I will not apologize for doing so nor do I accept the fact that it’s minor or unimportant. As an example, if one does not completely clean out sawdust and sheetrock dust that is in between studs and in the walls and sub floor, every single time you turn on your HVAC system that dust is being sucked through your home which generates tons of dust. A number of years ago when we were in the process of a new build, I thoroughly and regularly vacuumed all the sawdust and sheetrock dust on the job site. You could not find a spec of dust in-between the studs or anywhere else. That home was the most dust free environment I’ve ever lived in. I virtually never had to dust. It’s a small and seemingly unimportant and insignificant (and picky) thing to expect people to clean up after themselves, but it makes a HUGE difference in the outcome of things and can affect the way our homes function for years to come.

So am I nidnay,and truth be known others would be more concurned were it their place.

If there are no shims or blocking, a screw can pull a cabinet into a bow and out of square. This is the first thing a cabinet installer learns on his first day and this guy didn't do it.

"The more holes, the easier access for bugs and critters to find their way into the living space of my home. "

Exactly. Ants drive me NUTS. Obviously I will never be able to be completely rid of them, but I would be pissed if I found out those holes had been made and left like that. In fact, I would be furious. That is just stupidity and poor workmanship. I disagree completely with the posts that are saying these things are no big deal. I would never leave such crap in someone's home after doing a job - at least not if I was being paid for it. (I am no professional - but I have done various odd handyman-type things for friends over the years.)

To have high end expectations, you must first purchase high end products produced by high end pros. Which is not the case here. At all. This is all low end products and low end work. The expectations do not meet the specifications. More research was needed. And a much bigger budget.

“Custom” does not equate to high end. “Custom” does not equate to quality.

All custom really means is designed for you. A kitchen full of cheepchinesecrapola stock products designed to fit your kitchen is all too frequently called a “custom” kitchen.

There are numerous salesman who oversell. You have to do your due diligence. Or have a KD who will do it for you.

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5005595/refridgerator-fit-cabinet-install-issue-suggestions-please

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5081033/contractor-built-cabinets-using-drywall-as-the-back?n=6

The Install is commensurate with the quality of the product and the skills of of all associated with it. Water seeks its level.

You can’t buy a Mazda and expect a Mercedes. I would hope that most people look beyond the buzz words if “leather seats” and “automatic traction control” and “Bluetooth” to see that there is a BIG difference between a Mazda and a Merc.

For some reason, they don’t seem to do that with home remodeling components. Buzz words ain’t quality.

Just throwing this out there... if the cabinet maker, small family business worked to ensure the quality of the cabinets, I would think they would also see the imperfections in this install and make corrections as needed. I would hope you wouldn't have to spend 200K on a kitchen to expect not to cut your hand in a drawer or have cabinets insecurely attached to the wall. please update and post a photo of the overall kitchen. Hoping you find reasonable resolution.

Personally, I don't think you are out of line here at all. I see a lot of apologists on this thread who are excusing what looks to me like shoddy, careless workmanship. There seem to be issues with cabinet construction, and definite issues with installation. I also see several people on this thread who are saying, in effect, choose your battles. To me, this amounts to appeasing the workers, and is nonsense. The attitude of several posters seems to be, don't piss off the workers, because they might not like you anymore and will do an even worse job. These guys are working for YOU and you have a right to have the job done as you see fit. As long as you are willing to pay a fair wage, you have a right to expect fair workmanship. Just one man's opinion.

"These guys are working for YOU and you have a right to have the job done as you see fit."

Mmmm...kinda. I explain to my customers how the job will be done and that's what they buy and get.

Joe, I hear you, but your work is the exception, not the rule, unfortunately.

Paul, I agree with almost all of what you are saying except...

"These guys are working for YOU and you have a right to have the job done as you see fit. "

In Theory you are a 100% correct and I wish it were the case. But in my own renovation, I am hiring the GC and paying the GC. He is hiring the "guys are working"... construction team for demo, the electricians, the plumbers, the appliance co, the stone fabricators, (not tiling so no tiler) the flooring installers, the carpenters, the clean up crews, the painters...The guys are working for him. I assume and would hope that the GC will hire safe, honorable, hardworking, talented and qualified sub contractors to do the work. That is not always the case for everyone. Sometimes these specifics need to be in the contract!

I feel for the poster. I am not sure what is normal in a kitchen install and look forward to their final kitchen reveal. I am hopeful for and thankful to Sana-Df for posting this to non professionals like myself so that we can all learn from this and make better decisions in our kitchen journeys. Because of this post we hired a separate kitchen cabinet maker/installer with an impeccable reputation. Fingers crossed all goes well.

I do agree with your theory Paul! Together we can learn all we can so we can be advocates in this process. Hoping that everything works out for Sana-Df.

Joe, you are one of those fantastic people ("guy working for you") that explain in detail what we as a buyer are paying for. Wish there were more of you around the planet.

"Joe, you are one of those fantastic people ("guy working for you") that explain in detail what we as a buyer are paying for. Wish there were more of you around the planet."

Ditto and amen!

You absolutely DO NOT need to spend 200K to get a quality remodel. Sophie loves to propagate this false information. “A mazda ain’t a Mercedes” is a ridiculous statement to make because yes while they are entirely different price points and companies, each one has its benefits and the price does not make one less safe or functional than the other. OP is reasonably upset over some things and deserves explanation

Very sloppy work showing a very poor attention to detail. It has nothing to do with how much you spend. Regardless of the price or quality of cabinets, they were poorly and carelessly installed and I think OP has every right to be upset. The idea someone has to spend a couple hundred thousand on a kitchen to get good craftsmanship is just ridiculous. My kitchen (the dreaded Ikea) cost $25K (small kitchen 10 x 13). I have none of the installation issues described here because my DH is a carpenter who takes pride in his work. This was a lazy job that damaged the OP’s very nice cabinets. I would expect redress.

Any & all concerns you have are always VALID! Don't ever feel stupid for brining things up and asking the craftsman about them....NOT asking questions is a major source of disappointment because people don't want to ruffle feathers, but in all honesty- any true master of a craft understands that people don't know the in's & out's of how their work is done and they should be more than happy to answer all questions or concerns.

They should be willing to explain to you why things are done the way they are. If they aren't, or they brush you off its usually a sign they cut corners for the sake of cost & time...which isn't acceptable & DEFINITELY not for custom built cabinetry! I'm personally a detail oriented person and ask a TON of questions when working with a new company or spending a large amount on something I don't fully understand already.

1) Regarding the screws....

For the drawer faces: Pocket holes should be drilled into the face frames if they must be attached permanently vs using the hardware to keep them on. The pocket holes should have covers attached (either the plastic or wood options). I personally prefer if they are removable via removal of the hardware so they can be changed out or refaced in the future & since you're going the custom route I'd defiantly want it!

Inside the cabinets: A pilot hole should be drilled prior to screw if the wood hardness requires it & the screw counter sunk (slightly below the side walls) with or without plastic caps (depending on the company).

Cabinet/Wall Brace:Are all the cabinets secured to the wall with simple screws?? I was really surprised to see this! How are they making sure the bases are secured to studs & not just drilled through into the gypsum board? In the past I've seen cabinet makers use a base board across the run anchored into wall studs and the bases are then secured to the board.

Holes: The hole that will be exposed once the dishwasher is installed needs to be fixed.

The fridge cabinet with the double screws and the blank hole is ridiculous...whomever was doing the install rushed and didn't care about screw placement or taking the time to properly aline things before drilling. Again= Custom built should = quality control and care!

Yes there are MUCH better ways of finding the studs...even just using your knuckles to knock on the wall can get you close enough that a max of 2 holes might need drilled if you miss it the first time....again, sloppy work installing.

The range microwave: Did they know that cabinet was going to support a microwave/hood?

I'd ask about the install and max weight support. I don't believe 2 screws is enough to hold it (especially if they only screwed it into the wall & not a support board!) but don't know...I'd just hate to have it come crashing down a year from now!

*You need to make sure the cabinet makers know that screw placement & finish result is important to you and you expect no screws will be felt or seen once the install is complete.

2) Shims:

Yes, it's totally normal for wood shims to be left under the cabinets. Floors aren't completely level and in a new build the house will settle over time and the floor will change so it's important that the cabinets can be leveled. This is why RTA cabinets like IKEA have adjustable feet on the base that's hidden with a toe kick. Custom cabinet makers use wood shims to level on site during install and those can then be removed or added to as time goes on and any changes are required to keep the cabinets level.

3) Fixture & Outlet Holes:

Yes, it's common to have large square pre-cut from the backs before install as plumbing is different for every job & since fixtures change depending on the choices made in faucet, garbage disposal, dishwasher lines, etc they can't make exact cuts. Again, this is why a lot of RTA cabinets are backless and if the backing is ordered it must be cut by the installer to fit the existing fixture spaces.

HOWEVER- I totally agree with your being upset about the range plug placement and their solution to cut another hole into the side of the custom cabinet boxes. Although- I'm not entirely sure I understand correctly if it had to go through another base to reach the outlet or just the base of that unit vs the back side where a hole was already cut? I don't know what another solution would have been....

4) Cabinet Face Gaps:

Are you doing a full overlay with the new build as well? I completely agree that the gap's should be consistent and you definitely shouldn't be able to see the contents of the drawers! If the cabinets are full overlay why is the frame not hiding the contents?

If they are custom inset then I'd be very picky about how it all lines up since this is a fine craft that requires skill & time to get right (hence the excessive cost)...plus wood swells & contracts so they need to fit properly with a slight consistent gap after install.