You are welcome, Moses. I appreciate all your comments and wisdom that you share on the gardenweb. I have a small garden and planted minis and minfloras in front of climbing roses to make the most out of my space. There is a comment by Michael Garhart on Help Me Find that the blooms of Edith's Darling are fat and substantial and apparent from 10 feet away. Fragrance does seem special to have in a miniflora.

Moses, you might want to wait a little bit longer before getting this rose to hear how it performs in your area. So far I haven’t been impressed by mine. If you’re looking for a yellow mini, I recommend SHOCKWAVE, CAL POLY, & GOLDEN HORIZON.

I just saw a Harkness rose on Heirloom’s website sale that’s similar to ED with way better HMF reviews:

IRISH HOPE

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.19242.1&tab=36&qn=2&qc=0

Moses,

Hopefully you get some more positive feedback on ED, but I was at the Huntington Gardens today, saw Edith’s Darling and thought of you and this thread. So here she is:

Lots of blackspot, pretty much scentless to my nose. I will say in its defense that is January, and many roses are losing their foliage to blackspot and otherwise. Still, there were some great looking roses, and ED was not one of them. Here’s one of their healthiest, Jump for Joy, for contrast:

Romogen and Texas Ben,

Thanks for your education on Edith's Darling. Black spot combat is a way of life for me. That's because of the numerous fragrant hybrid teas I grow along with other fragrant black spotters. Seems fragrance, winter tenderness, and black spot go hand in hand, except for the newer Kordes introductions, especially the ADR winners.

Do I need to keep going along with the B.S. flow in order to grown fragrant roses? Yes and no. I should put Edith's Darling on hold for now, and see if it gets better press in the future or fizzles out.

Short, larger flowered, fragrant roses...wherefore art thou?

Moses

I’m in the same boat with regards to black spot. Most of my favorites - those that have great fragrance and bloom generously all year - aren’t suitable in my climate without a good fungicide program. Some of the more resistant new varieties sprawl, produce blind shoots, can’t set buds in the heat, or aren’t fragrant. Those are genetic traits I can’t change. But I can control blackspot, so I’d rather keep growing all my old favorite HTs and floribundas.

From Ben's photo, it looks like another rose is encroaching the poor thing and it could use some air circulation. Still, it is really hard to get blackspot in Southern California. I'm surprised Edith's Darling passed Weeks California trials if it is that blackspot prone, fragrant or not.

Here's another gardenweb comment on Edith's Darling. It sounds more promising on the blackspot issue, but iffy on the fragrance:

Jasminerose and Texas Ben,

I watched the Weeks Tour Video not long ago, Jasminerose, and made a beeline to it again at your redirecting my attention to it (grateful indeed to you for it), and paid close attention to Bedard's report on Edith's Darling, at 28:29 sec.

He gave it good press, but used the excuse that it was not performing at its best due to growing in poor soil (?), in its place in the trial bed. I question his statement's truthfulness, but not in a cynical way, just somewhat doubtful about it.

I'm on the same page as you are Ben, regarding going along with a rose's black spot susceptibility, as long as it is very fragrant and has a flower form I like.

A little late season (September and on), black spot can show up on a good rose, low down on the bush's oldest leaves. That doesn't bother me much, if its performance was stellar otherwise during most of the growing season. However, your photo of Edith's Darling shows more than just a little black spot!

Being a short rose, and also being B.S. prone is the kiss of death. I can tell you, this trait runs amuck through most minis and minifloras, especially among the very few fragrant ones there are in these two classes.

Folks complain about the lack of fragrance among hybrid teas, but my experience has shown me there are plenty of fragrant hybrid teas. They are the floribundas, minis, and minifloras that are fragrant rose wastelands.

The Kordes rose, Cream Veranda, is a miniflora by flower size and bush habit, going by any definition of the miniflora class characteristics. The flower is not classic hybrid tea exhibition form, but otherwise the bush itself is a miniflora in all other aspects. It grows about 18" tall, and is black spot free, completely, for me. Alas, it is a sparse bloomer, not fragrant, and the blooms are very short lived. However, it requires no spraying here, whatever.

The hunt goes on for short, 3"ish bloom size, and fragrant roses. They're out there.

Moses

Moses, I wondered about Bedard's statement about poor soil too. I thought test gardens were supposed to have poor soil, low fertilizer conditions, etc. so that if they do well there, they are sure to do well in our gardens. Maybe ED was given a pass, because it is unusual for a miniflora with fragrance. Maybe there will be more fragrant minifloras in the future.

Jasminerose,

Seems like a contradiction.

If anything, I think Edith's Darling appears to be shaded in that trial bed, although its growth does not seem to be extending as shade would cause.

Perhaps there is root competition from its towering neighbor. Maybe it is planted directly above a rock. I did not see any companion Edith's D. adjacent to it....die out?

Now I have to get Edith's Darling just to satisfy my curiosity. It may be a winner. Some of the photos of it show desirable traits.

Moses

Cynthia,

Thanks for the report and photos on Edith's Darling. I'm planning to give it a try. Yours is own root, I assume? Reagan's has it on Dr. Huey, but I don't want it getting taller than 2', and on a rootstock that could occur. Thanks again.

Moses

Moses,

You will want it on rootstock, this variety lacks vigor, resents container culture, and is a water hog. After a year, mine has declined to a one cane wonder that’s about 1.5’ tall. It was mostly defoliated from BS this past year and the flowers were faded & didn’t last long on the bush. The fragrance was unremarkable. Who knows, maybe it spent all its energy on making roots and will explode in growth this year, but from what I have already seen, I’ve made arrangements to ship it to someone else. I do like VP, AP, & PLR.

Romogen,

Thank you for your heads up. At this point there are just too many negatives regarding Edith's Darling to keep it on my, 'Must Have,' list. Will keep searching for 3" flowered, fragrant, naked knee coverers, not an all that easy bill to fill, I can tell you.

Moses

Moses,

I suggest you contact Richard at FLOR and discuss your needs. He is knowledgeable about his plants. Minis are a mixed bag, some are diminutive growers while others have mini flowers on full sized 4’ shrubs. When in doubt ask. I’ve ordered from Richard and like his stock:

https://forloveofroses.com/

Another option is Burling at her rose nursery. She used to work for Ralph Moore, the father of miniature roses, so she is familiar with the class. Her prices are great and her plants are of good quality. Her homepage is bare bones but she responds to emails regularly:

http://burlingtonroses.com/

Apricot Twist is a pretty Ralph Moore mini with some fragrance. Blooms are 2.75 inches. I found this post from Paul on a thread called, "Apricot Twist?"

and this from Kathy:

Jasminerose,

Thank you for giving careful thought to my search, and making a recommendation.

There's hardly a fragrant or supposedly fragrant mini that I have not tried. Apricot Twist is one of them. I could not detect even a moderate fragrance. The flower went from quite respectable exhibition form to ugly, overly quilled blooms, almost before my eyes. It was also a black spot magnet which would not have mattered too much, since I bite the bullet and spray, but its shortcomings were too many, so it is gone.

Also, I am attempting to move away from fragrant minis in their role as, 'naked knee coverers,' if possible, toward larger flowered (~3"), but short (<24"), and fragrant roses. Then there's dead heading little mini flowers...bigger roses=fewer roses to dead head. Call mine lazy, you won't be the first, or last!

My current roses used as, 'naked knee coverers,' are: MINIS - Scentsational, Winter Magic, Cafe Ole, Lavender Crystal, Sachet, and Diamond Eyes; MINIFLORAS - Deja Blu, Sweet Arlene, and Flawless. I have multiples of many of them...5 Sweet Arlenes, a lovely, fragrant rose indeed.

I plan to move my Boleros up front and see if they stay about 2', which I think they should in my zone. If it works out I will increase my number of Boleros quite a bit, I like this spectacular rose that much.

I have 27 feet of rose bed edge to deal with, 18 feet in front, and the turn-ins at the rose bed's sides add about 9 more feet. The bed is 18' X 8'.

Moses

Bolero is so beautiful. Lavender Crystal is a rose that I've had my eye on too. Your garden bed will look terrific.

Romogen,

Your recommendations and included links are appreciated greatly.

I pretty much gleaned out Burling of all her fragrant mini selections over the last some years. My next move is to look over her non-mini, short fragrants, and see what there is.

Richard, at For Love of Roses, was called a while ago in my quest, and I got the, 'bum's rush,' from him. Short shrift....left a sour taste in my mouth. I've studied his miniflora offerings from time to time, but really found nothing there I don't already have or want. Among his fragrant mini offerings there are a few I don't have, but I'm trying to move away from minis. Also, some of his roses that peaked my interest had no or very few alternate sources to find out more about them.

Thanks again for your input.

Moses

Jasminerose,

I would encourage you to get Lavender Crystal. This last year was its first year for me, and it grew poorly, but wanted to bloom, producing a lot of flowers. It just didn't get husky enough to feed the abundant blooms it made, so they were small and malformed....but abundant. I believe it likes heat. This winter may push it over the edge here, but who knows. If I remember correctly Lavender Crystal got low points for cold hardiness, unlike almost all minis....they are pretty winter hardy without protection here.

Moses

You’re welcome, we lost too many specialty nurseries in the intervening years, so I support the ones that are good and have been good to me. I also accept that not everyone will share the same experience.

These are naturally low growing varieties that can be easily kept at your height requirement. They are not minis. There are more, but these are some of my favorites that come to mind. They may or may not work for you — we are in very different zones, but by researching them I hope it will help narrow down what you want. In no particular order:

PRETTY JESSICA (@Hortico)

LADY EMMA HAMILTON

ENGLISH GARDEN

YELLOW BUTTON

FAIR BIANCA

FRANCOIS RABELAIS

WHITE MEIDILAND

LAVAGLUT

BALLERINA

THE FAIRY

HAPPENSTANCE

ALFRED DE DALMAS

DEUIL DE PAUL FONTAINE

DOORENBOS SELECTION

ADOBE SUNRISE

BEST KEPT SECRET

KUROSHINJU (@Hortico)

INTERMEZZO

LILAC CHARM

TRUMPETER

PURPLE TIGER

NIMBUS

GREY DAWN

ROSEMARY ROSE

Romogen,

Wow, your list gives me something to study over! Thank you very much!

Moses

Given your experience you may have already grown these roses, but I find the following both beautiful, fragrant and small: Barcelona, Molineux, Gruss an Aachen and Yvonne Rabier. I'm using them to try and hide the legginess of taller roses myself. Before winter I also got a Milano Kolorscape, but I don't think it's fragrant. Some of the Koster's might also work as well as some of the smaller polyanthas. I'll definitely know if these are hardy after this winter!

I also forgot to mention Golden Buddha, Dames de Chenonceau (possibly), Wife of Bath and Sweet Chariot. I don't have any of these yet, but have read that SC in particular works well as a bedding rose.

Wow, Romogen - your Edith's Darling does look like a mangy mutt. I checked and mine was from Breck's so it's grafted on Dr. Huey. Maybe next year it'll fade - doesn't sound like what you're looking for Moses.

With Romogen's great list, I'll comment on the ones that have overwintered well for me in zone 5, which can give you an idea of narrowing down the list:

Hardy with no problems

White Meidiland (ridiculously hardy even in my zone 4 pocket)

Lavaglut (ridiculously hardy even in my zone 4 pocket)

Ballerina - mine gets larger than 3' though

Pretty Jessica

Yellow Button (presumably, since my Red Button is unstoppable)

OK Hardy in zone 6 pocket:

Francois Rabelais

Deuil de Paul Fontaine

Intermezzo - wish I could replace this one as the only Dot rose that survives

Lilac Charm

Trumpeter

Nimbus (love the color of this one - wish it bloomed more often)

Not hardy for me at all

Lady Emma Hamilton (surprising as most Austins do fine for me)

The Fairy (not even close, also surprising for a shrub)

Adobe Sunrise (and it got pampered)

Best Kept Secret

Grey Dawn (in my dreams...)

I'd agree with Vaporvac that Wife of Bath, Gruss an Aachen, Sweet Chariot, and Milano Kolorscape will stay small for me. Don't trust the records as I did at first on Dames de Chenonceau - it gets HUGE (easily over 5-6' and fortunately willing to drape over a low fence at the front of the bed). Golden Buddha is also short reliably, though it didn't overwinter more than one year for me so it's zone 6 maximum probably. Molineux wasn't huge but it probably got to waist high (grafted) for me.

Other reliably short and hardy roses for me (no clue about fragrance given my nose):

Floral Fairy Tale

Coral Cove

All the Drift roses

Mango Veranda (and all the other Veranda roses)

All the OSO Easy roses I've tried (like Mango Salsa or Italian Ice)

Earth Angel

Tamora

All the Meidiland roses - Lovely Meidiland, Alba, White

Occhi di Fata

Rumba

Rockwall Sesquicentennial (rock-solid hardy Pioneer rose from ARE)

Midnight Blue

George Burns

Happy Child

Black Night

Scarlet Velvet

Angel Face

My Choice

Nigrette

Twilight Zone (supposed to be very fragrant)

Honor Elizabeth

Koko Loco

Sunsprite

Baptiste Lafaye

If you want an eye-popping reliably hardy coral rose, Roses Unlimited is now selling Liverpool Remembers. I'll start a separate thread about that one, but it's a killer non-fading bright coral that's totally reliable for me.

One that I can guarantee is fragrant and has never gotten above 3' yet overwinters like a champ is Sharifa Asma. Mine is about 8 years old and below knee height, but one of my favorite "nose diver" roses ever. The headiest sweet scent EVER to me. Kim Rupert says Velvet Fragrance is extremely fragrant if you bring it inside (I still can't smell anything) and it stays 3' or so for me.

Just more food for thought in the cold winter months.

Cynthia

Cynthia,

I'll be studying your recommendations over the next few days. Thanks for them.

I have looked into getting Golden Buddha before, but Rogue Valley Roses is the only source I know of. It has been out of stock there for as long as I have known about it, a while already.

Thanks again.

Moses

Vaporvac,

Thanks for your recommendations. I will be studying them....lots of ideas to consider.

Moses

This is too much fun. I will be looking for roses to cover bare knees, too, so I'm paying attention. The rose that comes to mind, that I have experience with, is Gruss an Aachen. Mine has wonderful fragrance, but it is described by HMF as mild. Bonus - it's hardy to zone 4. I love it when they can be this pretty without pampering.

Gruss an Aachen

OSO Easy Fragrant Spreader is another rose I have and love, and aptly named, but not large flowered. Also hardy to zone 4. No photo of my own, but this one from the internet is accurate...

OSO Easy Fragrant Spreader. Again, this is not my photo.

Flowersaremusic,

Your input is appreciated, thanks.

I like Gruss an Aachen a lot.

Help me out about Gruss an Aachen....are there two colors, one white, and the other pink?

Can I keep it under 2 feet or so? Is it bolt upright or spreading?

Who sells it that you recommend?

Moses

There are two, a pink and the regular one which is often bi-colored as seen in Flowersaremusic's beautiful pictures. I get a wonderful fragrance from it, definitely not mild. I got my original variety from ARE and it was really nice. I only got it last year and planted it in August, I believe, so I can't judge it's true habit, but thus far I would say it's wider rather than tall.

Cynthia, that's a fantastic list you have compiled. May I ask where you got Intermezzo? I don't find a source listed. I forgot about George Burns. I've seen it at the Columbus Park of Roses where it's very healthy, fragrant and small.

Yes, Moses, there are two - Gruss an Aachen is a pale, creamy pink, and Pink Gruss an Aachen, a sport of GaA, is very pink, with a little tinge of apricot. I have the original one. Mine is 3 yr., own root and under 2' in a nicely mounded shape, a bit wider than it is tall. It would surprise me if it ever got over 2' in our zone. It is known to be a small bush.

My photos are a little pinker than usual because they were taken right after some cooler weather and rain, but every bloom was lovely.

I bought mine at Northland Rosarium. I don't see it in the current online catalog, but she might have it. She doesn't list everything in the catalog if she only has a few.

Roses Unlimited has only the climbing version, but if she had it in the past, might still have some.

I don't know about any other places since I rarely order. These two I know are reliable. It shouldn't be hard to find, though.

I don't believe Pink Gruss an Aachen is as hardy as it's parent, but don't quote me on that.

Vaporvac, I got Intermezzo from Vintage many years ago which is why I can't replace mine when it faded over a particularly cold winter. I'd love to find it again though.

Flowers, I'd say the Pink Gruss is a little less hardy than the original Gruss but not much. I've had the original for about 8 years but Pink Gruss died over one winter after about 5 years. Both are good zone 5 roses, but anything can die in a given year in my experience.

Cynthia

Thank you, Cynthia. It seems the ones we can't get are the ones we want the most! LOL! Moses, I'd like to add another, Chartreuse de Parme, although I'll have to find the recent post on it to see its hardiness. HMF has it as Zone 7, but who knows if that's correct.

Ooh, gorgeous photos, flowers. Gruss is a beauty. Does she rebloom well? I've been thinking about growing this one for quite a while, and your photos make it very tempting. Do you think Gruss would stay as small here? I don't have much room left.

I just wanted to add that I agree with Cynthia that Ballerina would probably grow too big for your needs. I also noticed that Cynthia mentioned Tamora, and I, too, think she would be a good rose to consider. Mine stays just under 3 feet tall and wide.

Diane

Thanks, Vaoporvac and Cynthia, for confirming what I've found to be true. I always second guess myself and worry a rose will be totally different in someone else's garden. The original Gruss is actually quite pink enough for me, and I do like the variation in color it gets. However, some photos show it entirely creamy ivory.

Diane, yes, it's a good rebloomer. As to staying small in your super charged garden, I hesitate to venture a guess. It is always referred to as a small rose bush... Interesting that it's never been agreed upon what class it's in. Some say floribunda, some say HT. It seems more floribunda-ish to me.

A definite yes! to Tamora. Yummy photos! How pretty with the purple snaps and lavender alyssum for companions. I didn't realize she was supposed to stay small. Great scent. Such a good rose!!

I just looked up Chartreuse de Parme...that's a nice rose!

Well, so far what I have found from all your great suggestions, including a couple roses I have already started using, in transitioning from mostly mini, 'naked knee coverers,' to roses that are: short, about 2' tall; larger flowered, 3"+; and fragrant, are:

Bolero

Flawless

Deja Blu

Sweet Arlene

Rockwall Sesquicentennial

Lady Mitchell

Kaffe Fassett

Golden Buddha

Gruss an Aachen

Pretty Jessica

Chartreuse de Parme

These should keep me busy. I do not intend to remove all the minis at once, but little by little over a couple years, so that the whole rose bed does not lose its mature appearance, especially in the front of the bed.

Moses

As much as Tamora bloomed for me, she dropped her petals incredibly fast, and for that reason, got the boot.

Moses

Sorry to read that, Moses. I think Tamora's blooms last fairly well around here. Diane

Looks like a great list. Where on earth have you been able to find Kaffe Fassett? I saw it on Heirlooom's wish list before they went so commercial that they won't sell anything but commonly available roses, so it was never available for purchase. I'd buy that one in a heartbeat!

Cynthia

Cynthia,

Sorry to get you excited about Kaffe Fassett. My above list from Rockwall Sesquicentennial down are roses I have yet to acquire.

I've had my eye on KF for some time. As you wrote, it is just not currently available to us now. Perhaps our, 'beloved,' Heirloom Roses will become motivated by the love of roses in addition to their apparent love of hefty profits, and make it and other perpetually out of stock roses available to us.

I get a kick out of Heirloom Roses, seeing all the roses, seems like half or more of the listed ones have been out of stock for a few years now. It verges on false advertising.

Moses

I SO agree with you Mr. Moses, regarding Heirloom bordering on “false advertising” with their out of stock roses. I rarely purchase from them anymore, since their prices skyrocketed. On the other hand, I’m on their mailing list, so I can’t resist looking. It never fails. I find something I like so much that I decide to “bite the bullet”, only to find it’s out of stock and stays that way. If I were a nursery owner, I’d be trolling forums like these and taking notes. I think they could learn so much about what a customer really wants from a mail order nursery. Lisa

Ah Moses - thanks for the confirmation of what I feared. I used to attempt Kaffe Fassett's knitting patterns which are very intriguing, and the rose itself looks cool too. On both accounts I will have to wait and see. At least Heirloom doesn't post varieties as if they're available then have you wait years till if and when they send you the rose you've paid for, as another company used to do in the past. I agree it's a shame about their lineup though.
Cynthia

True, Cynthia.

Mr. Moses, I second (or third?) the recommendation for Gruss an Aachen. I grow the regular one and I love it. It’s shade tolerant, remains short and compact, and the blooms are ever-changing. It’s like getting multiple roses on one bush. No two blooms are exactly the same, but they all blend together beautifully. Mine is grafted because I bought it locally, on sale. Even grafted in my zone, it stays compact and rounded, much like Bolero in shape and size. It doesn’t have the best vase life, but that’s it’s only fault in my book. Gruss an Aachen’s colors blend nicely with everything else in the garden, too. I enjoy seeing all the various bloom colors, I think you would too. It’s really a good little rose! Lisa

Lisa and Cynthia,

I wonder if Heirloom Roses records how many hits a variety gets that's listed on their web site, and uses that information on deciding what they will propagate. Maybe that could be why so many out of stock roses fill their web site. Probably not.

I was thinking of contacting Heirloom this summer, and ask them to sell me cuttings of Kaffe Fassett and Lady Mitchell. If they say no, it won't hurt me any.

Gruss an Aachen is at the top of my futures list, can't wait.

Moses

I went to two nurseries yesterday, but spent so much time at the first, that the second was closed by the time I got there. I had forgotten that they closed at 5 during the winter instead of 6. I couldn’t resist looking through the fence, but I was unable to read the labels because I had forgotten my reading glasses:( So there I was in the dark taking pictures through the fence. I did hurry because although I was doing nothing wrong, it was a busy parking lot. I was afraid someone might think I was up to no good and call the police. After I returned home I looked at my pictures with my glasses on. What do you know, ‘ Edith’s Darling’!

Yes, I reached my hand inside the fence for photos, but I still wasn’t stealing anything:) Lisa

You're hilarious, Lisa! This sounds like something I would do, but without thinking of getting arrested! ; ) I'm sure you have just the MO.; 0

I know, right? I was sure that I wouldn’t actually be arrested, but I did want to avoid the embarrassment of explaining myself should those flashing lights arrive! L

Lisa,

What hoops we jump through in our dedication to our rose avocation. Thanks for the shot you took of Edith's Darling and its tag information.

Your growing year is under way now. Your enthusiasm and excitement are obviously at a peak, and are contageous. The growing season for rosarians here begins with spring pruning which doesn't start until mid-April, 90 more days! Usually, nurseries here are just ramping up with potted stock a week or so before Mother's Day, in early May. Can you imagine the amount of frustration we here experience when we hear of your rose season starting now. We will survive, somehow!

I suppose Edith's Darling will be promoted and marketed heavily until and if it becomes a favorite among rose gardeners, or fizzles out if its assets are far outweighed by its liabilities.

My inclination, at least this time anyway, is to wait a while and see how she spans out. I, 'take the bait,' too quickly on a new rose. You would thing my old age would have tempered my impulsiveness. I have been using the lame excuse that my years ahead are few, and I don't have the time to wait. I have to force myself to practice restraint. This is a good opportunity for me to mend my, 'must have that rose now,' ways.

I'm usually frugal with all other things, both by habit and necessity. With roses it's, 'get out of my way....I'm headed to the checkout with this cartful of roses....stop me at your peril!'. Time for my behaviors to match my white hair.

Moses

Nice job doing rose sleuthing, Lisa! We'd back you up as being a mostly harmless rose nut (assuming we're in any position to judge - smile).

Moses, let us know if the cutting option works out. I used to put my name on the wait list for roses at Heirloom but it never came to anything. When I was working with the wholesale provider for Heirloom a few years back I had open communication with her and pleaded for sales of a few out of production roses. She said it was the grower's choice (whoever they are) what roses are available and that they weren't willing to do the out of production roses. She made it sound like their hands were tied by the growers, but since they are producing roses on request it seems like the Heirloom company could request whatever roses they wanted from the growers.

I suspect those low frequency roses will disappear from the Heirloom catalogs before long and it's a shame. Maybe someone smaller like Linda Loe or Burling can pick them up if stock becomes available.

Cynthia

Moses - I love reading your posts! I have learned so much from everyone here but Moses you always make me smile. I am going to try that apricot rose you like so much.. Thank you.

Moses, I'm now in a similar boat. Two years later, what did you end up putting in the front border of your rose bed?