Scratch all the Tea roses. You aren't nearly warm enough for those.

Marchesa Boccella is impossible to say since there seem to be several roses sold under that name (and Jacques Cartier) Some are small. Some are not. Ours was easily 4 x 6.

Clotilde Soupert should be good.

I second Clothilde Soupert. Souvenir de la Malmaison has been durable here in a garden that is not kind to roses. It has eventually (37 years) gotten to about 3' high by 2.5' wide. Long Island is probably a zone warmer than here due to the ocean's moderating influence. I would expect SdlM to be a trifle larger than here but not much. It does not have the classic damask/old rose scent but it's scent is pleasant and visually it is a stunner.

Cath

Thanks for the advice. I appreciate it.

How about Souvenir de la Malmaison and Kronprincessin Viktoria for the climate? They would be okay, right?

Or if you have anything else you can recommend, please let me know.

Thanks again.

Joe

Hi Cath,

Thanks for the reply, as well. I am figuring Souvenir de la Malmaison would be okay here, and it seems quite attractive. The size sounds like it would be great, as well, even if if turns out to grow a bit larger here.

Joe

Yes, as for cold hardiness for both roses you should be fine. Both died to the ground after the 2 hard Winters but bounced back well.

Cath

And, any experience with Reine des Violettes, by any chance? Should be hardy, from what I've read, but perhaps too big.

Joe

I love my R d V, Joe, from Antique Rose Emporium. Mine is a bit lanky being only 2 years or so old. I'm really not sure ultimate size.

I am in a very similar climate to yours, and am originally from Long Island. Here, I've experimented with growing some Chinas and Teas. What I've found is that Winters will take their toll on them if they are in exposed spots, but so long as they have enough root system left, they will rebound when grown in full-sun. The Chinas against the south-facing side of the house see very little Winter damage, being as that location offers some protection.

"Bermuda Spice" has no Winter protection, but is in a full-sun (from about 7am - 6pm in Summer) location. Its first year in the ground included that severe Winter of 2013-2014, which resulted in me cutting it down to just a few inches from the mulch line. By the end of the season, it had grown to about three feet tall and wide, but then came Winter 2014-2015, which left just under 12" of cane surviving. But, again, it rebounded, and this time reached about five feet by five feet. The following Winters weren't as severe -- some stouter canes survived with just tips and laterals having to be cut back, while others had damage in isolated spots, which left me cutting anything above them. "Bermuda Spice" is currently about six feet tall and four feet wide, but I know it will be reduced to less when I cut it back in Spring.

'Lady Hillingdon' was a story with a different ending. I planted it where it got only partial sun -- but midday, so I thought it was enough. It grew at about the same rate as "Bermuda Spice" (which was just six feet away from 'Lady Hillingdon'), and had about the same amount of damage after ts first Winter. But it simply couldn't rebound as well with less than full-day sun. Unfortunately, after two severe Winters, there was little left of it by last year, and I finally ripped it out.

I've since grown several other Teas, but I keep them potted -- no more room for big roses in the ground. They go into my enclosed-but-drafty unheated back porch for Winter. Temperatures in there are the same as outside, and the pots do freeze, but they're out of most of the wind. They have far less damage than does "Bermuda Spice" out in the open, but no less than do the ones against the south-facing side of the house. So if you're planting withing a protected circle of yew, you'll have less moisture-sucking wind in Winter, and I suspect the exposure would be akin to the south-facing side of the house here.

So here's what I've come to learn about Chinas and Teas in zone 7a -- they can handle severe pruning quite easily, so long as what you're pruning is relatively young (as in less than one-year-old wood), AND they have prime growing conditions to put back what the previous Winter took away. This means lots of sun, water, and nutritious soil. My friends in California will warn against pruning them harshly, and I understand that is the case in their conditions. But we have much more growth-promoting rain than they do. We also won't be cutting into old wood every year, which would be more of a shock to a Tea. I've come to look at the Chinas and Teas as being tolerant of Buddleia-treatment -- being cut back hard after Winter, but then allowed to grow wild for the season in full-sun, with plenty of food and water. To give them a head-start, aim to get them as early in Spring as possible, and push growth by keeping them potted in all-day sun in a nutrient-rich potting mix, and making sure they never dry out. By the end of Summer, pop them in the ground, and plant them two or three inches deeper than they were in the pot. Expect to remove a lot of damaged cane in Spring, but they will rebound.

Don't bother with a Tea or China in the partially shaded area -- it won't grow enough to rebound from what Winters take away. Instead, I'd suggest looking at a Hybrid Musk for there -- perhaps 'Felicia' would be an acceptable substitute for 'Duchesse de Brabant'. As for other Teas, look them up on HelpMeFind -- if you see them in gardens with climates similar to yours, give them a try. For example, there's Roselovr in East Hampton who has quite a few tender roses listed.

:-)

~Christopher

P.S. I can show you pics when I get home from work later. You'll be able to see how they started in Spring, how much they grew until Autumn, and how they started again the following Spring.

:-)

~Christopher

What size, roughly, are you looking for? It sounds to me like polyanthas in general may be a good fit.

Christopher,

Thank you very much for that detailed response, I appreciate it. You've provided me with a lot of important information. I should have really reached out to this forum when I originally built this rose garden for my mother. For one thing, I purchased a few sale Hybrid Teas from Home Depot (Francis Meilland and Sugarmoon). The Francis M. have been fine through the winters (albeit with significant winter protection), but four Sugarmoons this spring were not growing for me at all. Perhaps the graft union got damaged, as I did not plant them below grade, rather the opposite, slightly above, with drainage in mind. Anyway, I got rid of those SugarMoons. Maybe they could have been rejuvenated, I don't know.

Anyway, like you're more or less saying, Christopher, there are ways around our climate. (and that link to Roselover in East Hampton was good to see). Aside from the winter protection, I also amended the entire soil bed areas, with manure and sand, tilling deep with forks on a skid steer, to improve drainage mostly. And in some cases, I'll dig down deep below my plantings with a post hole digger until I hit sand, go a bit deeper, and increase the drainage with rocks, (large to small), finishing off with the removed sand back on top, before I go to my loam mix. So, I essentially create rubble drains underneath. I don't always have to do it, but if it's something special, I often do. I'm hoping that this should address some of the issues with our winter rains.

But, I am still going to consider planting some hardier plants from the get-go and avoid wondering if they'll survive, as mad_gallica has suggested.

As to your question, Mad_gallica, I have beds of about 8 by 12', and I think I'd like to keep the sizes around 4-5 ft wide, which is sort of what I've already allowed for in my layout. If there were something exceptional you had in mind, then I could consider planting less. If there's something you might have in mind, that'd be great.

Thanks again for all the help, everyone.

Joe

And, Shiela, thanks for the picture. How have you matched the Reine des Violettes? I'm trying to see if that would work with light pinks and white (and occasional deep red), or if it would clash too much?

Joe

Well, if you change your mind, here are some pics of my "Bermuda Spice" growing in central NJ, zone 7a -- before getting hit by Winter, then rebounding, then hit again.....but still finishing bigger and bigger each year. Note its location -- just about all-day sun, but no protection at all from Winter, except the thick mulch layer. In another post, I can show you my 'Napoleon' growing to over seven feet tall while leaning unsecured against the south-facing side of the house. That one has very little Winter-damage each year -- and just on the newer tips that didn't harden off.

April 23, 2013 -- the day it arrived, after being potted-up in a 2gal container to push growth.

April 28, 2014 -- see the tiny bit of green about an inch from the bottom edge in the center, just to the right of a white plastic tag? That's the tiny bit of "Bermuda Spice" above the mulch line that survived the "polar vortex" Winter of 2013-2014 -- horrible timing for new baby roses, but such is life.

May 29, 2014 -- rebounding.

June 2, 2014 -- blooming and continuing to grow.

I don't have pics of Autumn 2014, but "Bermuda Spice" hit about three feet by three feet....but only about 12" made it through to 2015.

May 15, 2014.

May 27, 2014 -- full flush, despite being just under 24" tall. But still bigger than a year before.

........to be continued.

:-)

~Christopher

Joe, I think R d R would look great with those colors. I would stick to the OGR palette vs bright modern colors and it would be great.

Hi Christopher,

Thank you for that detailed posting. You have a lovely garden. And I like the log/branch edge border. I do that with my Rhododendron as a berm and semi-kugel effect. It's a great way to use up debris.

Anyway, Bermuda Spice does seem like a very nice rose and hardy, and I'm going to keep it in mind going forward. For now, I put an order into Rose Petals for a couple of Bourbons: Blanche Lafitte, Kronprinzessin Viktoria. Also, I ordered Marchesa Boccella and Clotilde Soupert.

Next I may get Souvenir de la Malmaison. And I'm looking into Rose du Roi and Reine des Violettes.

Sheila, you're probably right, the purple would go well. But I'm still not entirely sure if I'll add it. In some pictures it looks a little bright, we'll see. I tend to enjoy more muted tones.

Similarly, I'm having trouble pinning down what color Rose du Roi would be. Or if the commercially sold Rose du Roi is actually the Rose du Roi a Fleurs Pourpres. HMF shows Rose du Roi as more plain pink and not particularly special. The other seems to be a beautiful crimson with purple tones. Does anyone know what's floating around there from the various companies?

Joe

There are several different roses going around as 'Rose du Roi'. I have the real one -- Vintage Gardens had a striped sport of the real one, and propagated from stems that reverted to the original solid red. Some nurseries are selling a long-caned Hybrid Perpetual as 'Rose du Roi' -- possibly the same rose Vintage Gardens sold as 'Rose du Roi a Fleurs Pourpres'. Others were selling something that resembled the real thing but was clearly different -- at least, it was a proper Damask Perpetual rather than a Hybrid Perpetual. I never saw this one, but someone on the forum has it. Search for 'Rose du Roi' on here and you'll find the threads. I notice that pics of 'Rose du Roi' from the UK seem to show a rose that's more of a pink than the red I see in my garden, but the plant itself is otherwise identical. I wonder if perhaps that is actually 'Bernard', which was a sport of 'Rose du Roi'. If so, that would explain why the plant looks identical to mine except for petal color. If you look at pics for 'Panachee de Lyon' and ignore the imposters posted by petals and buds, my plant has blooms entirely colored like the dark petals, while some UK 'Rose du Roi' pics show blooms colored like the lighter petals.

For something kinda similar in a smaller plant, check out "Pickering Four Seasons Rose". There's also 'Delambre', which I got from Roses Unlimited -- they might be the only US source left. For other Damask Perpetuals, look at 'Duchess of Portland', 'Marbree', and -- if you can get it from Greenmantle Nursery -- 'Marie de St. Jean'. They're all rather similar plant-wise, except for size and vigor. Note that, for us with hot and humid Summers, they can be prone to "Damask crud", which is like blackspot, except the leaves don't drop. They will repeat-bloom, but generally need some encouraging to do so -- Summer-prune, and another round of fertilizer a month before the hottest part of Summer is over, getting them ready for an Autumn flush. You'll get the odd flowers between as well.

The conundrum for us in this area is finding oldies which can handle our Winters but don't shut down in our Summers. Even though some get bad blackspot, Bourbons are really good compromises for rebloom and Winter-hardiness. Damask Perpetuals are more hardy, but rebloom less -- they really do better in areas that are borderline or too cold entirely for Bourbons. Hybrid Perpetuals vary between Bourbons and Damask Perpetuals. Repeat-blooming Mosses are generally "Damask Perpetuals with Moss", though a few later ones, like 'Mme Louis Leveque' are really "Hybrid Perpetuals with Moss".

In terms of hardiness and rebloom, put Noisettes (the old pink and white ones) and Chinas together -- a bit less hardy than the Bourbons, but bloom far more through our Summers. Slightly less-hardy still are the Teas and Tea-Noisettes. Certainly, if you want to try any of the climbers, they need to be against a south-facing wall. But the bush versions, given sun and fed and drinking all our rain, will grow like Buddleia here -- cut back hard by Winter, but growing like gangbusters in Summer, more and more each year. And they don't seem to stop blooming during our Summers, as long as they stay watered.

Certainly consider Polyanthas and Hybrid Musks -- generally, they bloom about as much as Chinas and Teas, respectively, but are about as hardy as the Bourbons. Their downfall is that not all are fragrant, and none of those that are will have the Bourbon-type of fragrance. But there are certainly enough fragrant Polyanthas and Hybrid Musks to fill a garden, if you seek them out.

I've grown several individuals of many different types, and I take lots of mental notes about how they do here. Pick my brain.

:-)

~Christopher

P.S.

Yes, "Bermuda Spice" is certainly doing OK here, even if I have to cut it back a lot in Spring. But keep in mind that where I have it is the most unprotected spot in Winter. I recently lost a rose against the south-facing side of my garage, and I'm going to put a Tea there. It will have a much easier time getting through Winters there, AND it will have all-day sun during the growing season. Considering how the Teas keep blooming -- either constantly, or in rapid waves -- through our hot and humid Summers, finding pockets where they'll do well will be worth the effort. They may be your only roses blooming in late July through early August -- unless you also grow some Chinas and Noisettes. And the only Polyanthas here that bloom then are really Poly-Teas.

:-)

~Christopher

Found some pics of my 'Rose du Roi -- original' from Vintage Gardens. Unfortunately, my old iPhone 4 camera usually destroys the images of red and purple roses, but once in a while I am lucky. This first pic, taken when the rose was a year old in Spring 2014, is about as accurate as I've gotten.

In that same year (2014), I took a pic of a defining feature of the true 'Rose du Roi' and its sports -- the funky extra sepal. Not every bloom will have it, but many will. The imposters don't have it on any.

I was lulled into thinking it would remain upright, but the blooms were so clustered at the tops of the canes that they were weighed down in all directions, and I had to gently prop them up.

Last round of blooms for the year were in mid-October 2015.

So, I learned my lesson -- beginning in Spring 2016, I ignored the fact that 'Rose du Roi' was green-to-the-tips and pruned its canes down by about 1/3. I now do this for 'Botzaris' and the Gallicas as well, since otherwise they all get floppy with blooms at the tips. I also learned that 'Rose du Roi' will have the odd flower here and there through the Summer and into Autumn, but to get an actual second flush required a "second flush of growth" to be encouraged, and to get that meant getting a haircut after the early bloom. I've repeated this on my other Damask Perpetuals and repeat-blooming Mosses -- and it works on them as well. So shorten canes by 1/3 in early Spring to keep them from getting top-heavy, let them bloom until you don't see new buds forming (usually two flushes by early July) and just dead-head, give them a mid-Summer haircut, and they'll have a nice Autumn flush on their new growth.

As a result of this, in 2017 'Rose du Roi' remained rather upright without support. Again, apologies for my iPhone destroying the color and blurring the blooms, but you can see the habit of the mature plant.

:-)

~Christopher

Hi Christopher,

Thanks again for all the information.

I'm still waiting to find out which Rose du Roi is being sold. So, we'll see. Good information to know about the pruning, if or when it comes to it, thanks.

Although I wanted to make sure the roses would be hardy, I may need to include some more continually blooming plants in the garden. I've gotten used to seeing the hybrid-teas Francis Meilland and Sugar Moon and the knockouts all the time.

What are your thoughts on Rose de Rescht? Does it get too bushy and messy looking though? Our area is more formal in nature, so I don't want it to look too wild either.

Also, I'm considering La Reine, Louis Odier, and Autumn Damask (though this might not repeat well).

I was trying hard to find Comte de Chambord, but it doesn't seem available anywhere, so I assume it must be a favored rose.

Joe

The RVR 'Rose du Roi' is the Hybrid Perpetual, from what I've heard from those who got it. Ditto for the one from Burlington Roses, and Long Ago Roses.

"Rose de Rescht" stays dense and shrubby and much shorter than my 'Rose du Roi'. Unfortunately, it's much more susceptible to blackspot here. Without spraying, it has a naked period in July. But since that's when I usually cut it back, I just do that anyway. It re-foliates, but never looks as full again as it did during the first flush. If you use fungicides early on, it'll likely stay perfect for you.

I haven't grown the others, so I can't say much about them specifically. Oh, and if you're looking for 'Comte de Chambord' expand your search to include 'Mme Knorr' and 'Mme Boll' -- the same rose is going around under all three names. I seem to remember it in Rose Petals Nursery's inventory.

:-)

~Christopher

Hi Christopher,

Thanks for the opinion on Rose de Rescht. Some really like the fragrance of it, but maybe it's not great for our area.

And it's good to know the other names for Comte de Chambord. Yes Rose Petals also has Mme. Boll (as well as Comte), but unfortunately, both are listed as out of stock.

Returning to Rose du Roi for a moment, Burlington sent me a picture of theirs, as I was curious which they sold, and it seems to be the deep-purplish one, and looks fairly similar to yours, at least the foliage, but then again I'm a novice. I'll see if I can post it. But I cannot see the sepals in the photos sent from Burlington.

So, if I understand correctly, the non-originals are the hybrid perpetuals, correct? So, then Burlington and Long Ago Rose's "Rue du Roi" is more likely "Rue du Roi a fleurs Pourpres"? Is that right?

As long as it's the dark, crimson-purple one, I think I'll be happy...

Joe

"Rose de Rescht" is really wonderful -- for the first flushes. Then, as I said, it drops leaves in July. But I don't spray. Others do, and it's just fine. It repeats lightly in the Summer, and will have another flush or two after the hottest part of Summer has passed.

To post a picture here, click "Photo" or "Houzz Photo" below the message field as you're composing a message, then select the appropriate file. Oh, but first, make sure the cursor is set to where you want the picture to be within your post.

Vintage Gardens sold 'Rose du Roi -- original' and 'Rose du Roi -- of commerce'. Both were Damask Perpetuals, derived from 'Autumn Damask' crossed with Gallicas, and which rebloomed. Other nurseries offer 'Rose du Roi', and some say "of commerce", but these seem to be Hybrid Perpetuals, i.e. with China blood. Some call them 'Rose du Roi a Fleurs Pourpres', but even that is a bit contentious, since that rose was supposedly a sport or seedling from 'Rose du Roi', and should at least be similar to it.

In any case, all this has nothing to do with how the plant will perform for you. I say it to clarify that if you ask about 'Rose du Roi', people here will be answering about plants that may not be the same as what you receive. So there will be discrepancies.

By the way, I wish I had nabbed the "of commerce" from Vintage Gardens when I could, thinking the "of commerce" was available elsewhere. I assumed that the other nurseries carried it, so I could get it after VG closed. But it turns out it's not the same as what the others have, and it bugs me that I can't find VG's "of commerce" now. There are so few true Damask Perpetuals left, so I thought I'd try to collect them all.

:-/

~Christopher

P.S.

Read this:

Phillip Robinson Examines the Damask Perpetuals

:-)

~Christopher

Christopher, thanks for explaining the confusion. Now, I understand completely... there's no hope in figuring it out, haha.

Here's what Burlington has sent me:

I don't know if it tells much, but it appears to be similar to what's being called "a fleurs pourpres." Like you're saying, hard to determine how it will do, but it does look very nice.

And thanks for the article link, definitely interesting to learn about all this.

Joe

Well, it's definitely not the same as Vintage Gardens' "of commerce". The pic you shared is of some Hybrid Perpetual, and looks similar to what others have gotten from Rogue Valley Roses.

:-/

~Christopher

The Rose du Roi in question does seem nice regardless, and the people who probably have the same one seem to like it, from what I've read.

Christopher, what do you think about the Chateau de Clos Vougeot for a hybrid tea in our area? I see you have it, and I think I read you weren't crazy about it at first. But, it seems to be a nice crimson. How does it compare to Chrysler Imperial? I have one of these already, which I found at Home Depot.

Joe

Yes, it does seem nice, regardless. My "grimace" was that yet another nursery's "Rose du Roi -- of commerce" isn't the same as what Vintage Gardens sold -- and that I probably won't be able to find it again.

I have 'Chateau de Clos Vougeot' as a pot-pet. It started as rather wimpy, but then this year it sent forth a stout cane -- at an angle closer to horizontal than to 45 degrees. It's almost self-pegging this way. That's fine, and I expected it, but if you're considering it, don't expect it to be an upright Hybrid Tea. It's not. It's more like a slow-growing Polyantha with fewer blooms. It is very prone to mildew, but doesn't seem to get much blackspot with me. Mildew is easily killed with a spray of potassium bicarbonate with a little soap in water, but blackspot requires bigger guns in our area, so I don't mind mildew-prone roses here. I just put the mix in an adjustable hose-end sprayer and give the garden a wash.

I like the rose, but I don't think it's for everyone. If you want it as a garden performer, it's probably not a good idea. I wanted it because there's something about the wimpy fragrant dark-red old Hybrid Teas that enamors me -- I also have 'Nigrette'. For garden performance, you'd probably do better with the climbing sport. It would have the same health issue, but being a bigger plant, you'd get more blooms from it. Or, if you're curious, try the bush form as a pot-pet. This way, you can pamper it better. Put something like purple Alyssum as a groundcover in the pot, and it'll look cute. You'll find with the dark-reds that the plant likes lots of sun, but the blooms don't. A happy compromise is having the pot where it's shaded during midday but in sun during morning and late afternoon, such as under a high-limbed tree, facing east.

I had a few other Hybrid Teas, including 'Chrysler Imperial', but not anymore. I thought I could leave them out in large planters, unprotected, through Winter. All but three died. I didn't replace them because I grew to not like how their stiffly-upright habit looked in a planter. So I stuck to the "wimpy" ones. I can't really say much about it, since I didn't have it long, but I will say that of the group, I preferred 'Mirandy' -- probably because it was a darker, smoky, purplish-red. It was one of the ones which survived that first Winter out in pots, but I eventually gave it away. It was also stiffly-upright, growing naturally into a sort of inverted traffic cone shape, but that was OK on a rose which only reached 30" tall. If that one catches your fancy, try to get it from Roses Unlimited. They have some VID roses from UC Davis. I don't know for certain that their 'Mirandy' is VID, but I know that 'Mirandy' is one of the roses which were cleaned by UC Davis -- so it's likely that that's where Roses Unlimited got theirs. You can email them to ask.

:-)

~Christopher

Okay, thanks, Christopher.

I really do like that dark, crimson of the Chateau de Clos Vougeot, but I'm not sure to bother if it's a weak bush. Beautiful flower, though. Is it a question of maturity, do you think or that's just how it will be? I think I saw a few people saying they loved it, but maybe again that was just the blooms themselves.

I could probably use the variation of a nice deep crimson among the pinks and whites I have already. I checked Burlington for Mirandy and Nigrette, but not in stock. I'm also not too crazy about going as dark as Nigrette, I don't think.

Anything else out there that you can think of?

Joe

What about Crimson Glory or Barcelona? I have the Cl. form of CG and it's gorgeous with a fabulous scent. Barcelona is also wonderful with smaller blooms. I've been wanting Etoile de Hollande, but have never seen it in person.I would think the deep colour of Nigrette would really complement pinks and whites. I tried to achieve that with Munstead Wood more or less successfully, but I'm adding Barcelona when it gets bigger. I also have Darcey Bussel, but of course, these are both Austins.

Hi Vaporvac,

The Crimson Glory is very beautiful. In general, I'm not crazy about nodding roses. But it's definitely a possibility. I also am not really in the market for any climbers, it just wouldn't work right now in my current layout. Otherwise, Etoile de Holland is also nice.

The Nigrette is very interesting, no doubt. However, first of all, it's not in stock where I'm considering. I think Rogue Valley has it, but I don't want to keep splitting up shipping. Secondly, in some photos it appears exceptionally dark, perhaps too much so for me. Hard to say. For now, lack of availability will be helping me decide...

Thanks.

Joe

'Nigrette' is as dark as it gets only when the weather is cool.

Crimson Glory

Etoile de Hollande

Gloire de Hollande

Heart's Desire

Mirandy

Night

Nigrette (same rose is sold as Louis XIV)

Papa Meilland

:-)

~Christopher

If you can possibly find them as budded plants, that is the way to get pretty much anything mentioned over the last few days. Pickering used to sell a fair selection of HPs. Now, I don't even know where to start looking for them.

Oh, one other thing -- don't be swayed by HMF pics showing some plastic-looking hot red blooms with these roses. Digital cameras seem to have a hard time accurately capturing dark reds and purples in roses. This pic below was taken of 'Nigrette' in its second flush of 2017, despite losing many of its leaves, which were spotty already in the second pic in my post above. This is how dark reds usually come out with my iPhone, but when it's overcast, sometimes I'm lucky.

If you look in the background to the right, 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' is growing against the corner of the front porch railing. From far away, its blooms are showing their accurate color -- and that was the color of the blooms on 'Nigrette' as well. But for some reason, when I get close, that dark red turns to hot red.

Here's 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' as close as I could get and staying true to color.

I'm starting to get the impression...I'm going to need a bigger rose garden.

I was originally hoping to buy only a few old garden roses, to give the area some structure (as a mature garden), then I figured I'd see about filling it in as I go along learning more, etc. And, I'd like at some point to propagate a few of my own if possible, as I do with other plants. Maybe visit a few local rose gardens, and see what catches my fancy in person.

Not to mention, I do come across the occasional interesting rose even at the home centers, though grafted, as mad_gallica I believe, is saying.

But we'll see.

Maybe I'll give one of the older Hybrid Tea's a try. Etoile de Holland, if non-climbing's available, might be a good option. Crimson Glory also, if available, and if I want to go with a nodding rose.

Joe

Lowes had a grafted Crimson Glory Bush form this past year. They sold out before I decided to get it. I found visiting local and Regional rose gardens one of the best ways see what looks great in your area.

Something that hasn't been discussed yet, is whether you want to/intend to spray. If you are relatively new to roses, it helps to have thought about spraying a bit in advance. I've seen many people here buy roses on impulse because they were pretty, then tie themselves into knots because those roses require more chemical intervention than they were comfortable with. In general, the healthier OGRs hardy enough for the north are once blooming. There are one-offs like Marchesa Boccella, which make people think the damask perpetuals are wonderful until they try growing a few more.

Definitely look around locally. I think Planting Fields has some roses, but I haven't been there. Most roses are easy to root, though not necessarily easy to grow on. If you know how to root them, you can end up with too many roses for very little money, so it doesn't matter if most of them don't work out.

Hi Mad_Gallica,

Yes, I'm prepared to spray, if that's necessary. I have some fruit trees, so fungicide or pesticide shouldn't be a problem. I usually make my own bordeaux mix (copper and lime) for that. I actually used it on some of my current roses last year with I think pretty good results.

It's funny you mentioned Planting Fields. I go there a lot, great place. But they actually just removed their rose garden and completely ripped out their beautiful yew hedging. I guess it was getting too large to maintain, I don't know. In it's place is now compact holly. They haven't replaced the roses yet, so I'm curious as to what goes in. Before, they only had a mix of knock out varieties and some modern Hybrid Teas, so nothing particularly special. Who knows, maybe they'll have some more interesting varieties and save me a trip to Brooklyn or the Bronx.

Even though I will probably attempt to root some of my own going forward, I did want to get a jump start on this garden for my mother. So I wound up ordering these for now: Clotilde Soupert, Souvernir de La Malmaison, Blanche Lafitte, Kronprinzessin Viktoria, Marchesa Boccella, Rose du Roi, and La Reine.

I think these should be on the safe side for my area. It's more than I wanted to buy, but I guess that's what happens, trying to combine the shipping etc... I figured that would give me a bit more flexibility should one or two not like it here, or vice-versa. But it's not too many that I still don't have a bit of room to add something else that I find interesting to propagate or buy at the local home centers, such as the reds.

Now watch the Planting Fields has every one here listed in the Spring...

Joe

HI Joe

I'm popping into the discussion late, just to make some comments about relative hardiness. You're warmer than I am by a zone or two, so take that into account - still, when you're looking for hardy long-blooming roses having ones that are hardy a zone or two beyond you can help. Obviously Christopher and madgallica are going to have feedback more pertinent for your specific location.

In my experience, Souvenir de la Malmaison is particularly winter tender and even in your zone will need some protection in the winter. Apparently SDLM has considerable tea rose in its heritage enough that it's a real wimp in cold. Consequently I put my last (maybe 5th) try at SDLM in my most protected and pampered spot along with 6 or 7 teas that I can overwinter in zone 5 with pampering. SDLM didn't even think about coming back with maximum protection in my virtual zone 6, so I'd put her marginal in even zone 7. She'll want protection even there.

Kronprinzessin Viktoria, Marchesa Beccella, Rose du Roi (the one from Burling), and Clotilde Soupert are all winter hardy for me without much effort. I think La Reine might be in a better spot, though it failed to overwinter in a part shade spot once so far. For repeat bloom, the best is Marchesa Boccella - she's going to bloom with the frequency of the others you mention. For me, KV and CS are mostly spring and fall bloomers, and my Rose du Roi is too new to repeat much at all (just approaching its third year). Reine des Violettes laughs off the cold and is reliably hardy, just be sure to get the real version of this one (Burling has the real RdV for instance) as there's a once-bloomer sold under this name as well.

As others mentioned, teas in your climate will take quite a bit of work but are marginally doable at a much reduced state. If you want to indulge for your own sake and fuss (as opposed to your mom's), the more hardy teas for me have been Maman Cochet (probably the most hardy), Mrs BR Cant, Duchesse de Brabant, and Madame Antoine Mari. Georgetown Tea made it several years as did Rainbow. None of them bloom profusely but they're a novelty in zone 5 and as such fun for me.

Cynthia

nippstress -- Joe is located in a climate much more similar to mine. Here, we almost never go below 0F on even the coldest nights. In my time here, we dipped below 0F just three times -- twice during the "polar vortex" Winter of 2013-2014, and once the following Winter. All times, it was for just an hour or two, at most, just before sunrise. And these were unusually cold moments for this area. Where Joe is located may have not even gone this low, since Long Island has more of a coastal-mild effect than I do.

That 0F threshold is quite a make-or-break mark for many roses, and being on the positive side of it (7a) makes for a bigger difference than being just below it (6b) than would be found between any other two half-zones separated by 5 degrees F.

I rooted a 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' for a friend, who grew it in a full-sun spot with no Winter protection. It loses the new tips that grew in Autumn and didn't harden off, but that's it.

Cutting rooted by July 2014, pics taken August 2014.

In the ground, September 2014.

July 2015

November 2015

Last time I saw it was almost a year ago -- its main canes are over an inch in diameter at the base.

So....no worries about this rose's hardiness in our Winters. And, as I've been saying, it's even worth trying some Teas and Chinas here. They'll never get as huge as they do further south or in California, but they will bloom through our heat when others shut down.

:-)

~Christopher

Chinas are well worth trying. Going by how Teas behave on the north shore of Staten Island without full, all day sun, those are only a curiosity.

The big, bad ogre is going to be blackspot. The coastal northeast does not get the summer heat that prevents major disease infestations further south. I know thirdhand that Planting Fields does not want to spray. Whether this is because of environmental or fiscal concerns I don't know. It can easily take several iterations to get a sustainable rose gardens.

SdlM, pictured above, grows in full-sun, and isn't sprayed for fungicides. Note the last pic was taken in November. This is a good rose in our conditions, its only failing being its balling of blooms when conditions are cool and wet. In my garden, some Bourbons stay rather clean, while a few others get spotty. I notice that the more sun they get, the cleaner they stay, generally. 'Souvenir de Victor Landeau' is a bit of an anomaly, being unusually clean here without spraying, and the only rose that stays even cleaner here is 'Golden Buddha', a Hybrid Bracteata by Paul Barden.

Blackspot is annoying here, and very few roses will stay completely, absolutely clean without intervention. 'Souvenir de Victor Landeau' is one of those exceptions. Many others here, if growing vigorously, will lose their Spring-grown leaves by early July, but quickly re-leaf, and those Summer-grown leaves tend to stay clean for most of the rest of the season. I've just adjusted so that the blackspot-time becomes my Summer-prune-time, and I strip the leaves as well. Only four or five of my roses will still have blackspot issues after re-leafing in July. This may prompt me to try spraying just those next year. This year, the potassium bicarbonate was great on mildew, but didn't do much on blackspot. I'm also going to have to cut through the trees again and bring in more sun -- too much leaning for light going on in 2017.

But one thing I notice is that most of the Chinas and Teas and Rosa moschata simply don't get blackspot -- or, if they do, it's very minor, and only on lower or interior leaves as they get shaded by new growth above. Yes, they get hit harder by Winter, but the fact that they look better when most of the others are gasping from our hot and humid Summers makes them worthy additions to a mixed rose collection in a zone 7a and above Mid-Atlantic garden.

:-)

~Christopher

Thanks for the feedback, Cynthia. I appreciate it. It was good to know more about the hardiness of these roses. I did consider purchasing Reine des Violettes, but I was not sure if I really wanted to add a more pure purple color into the mix. In only a few photos I've seen does it appear to have some reddish coloring in it. Who knows, though, maybe I'd see it in person and love it one day. And, with Rose du Roi, I hope it has some decent crimson coloring in it, not too heavily purple. I'm thinking it should be nice.

Thanks again, Christopher, for the insight into Souvenir de La Malmaison. I'm glad it does pretty well over here. It's a beautiful rose, probably my favorite color. And I think I would be okay with it even if it needed a little more care than others. Your friend is lucky. The rose grew beautifully in that time frame. Was it quick rooting?

As for spraying, I am by far no expert on fungicides, but when it came to protecting my fruit trees, I didn't want to buy anything weak and pay for water. So, I decided on making Bordeaux, which I can adjust myself. A bit more work and can be annoying with the lime clogging the sprayer (you need to sieve it and not rely on the spray tank's screen alone--I go a little heavier on lime to make up for this), but it's less expensive, and I know what's in it. I don't know how popular it is for roses compared to other fungicides. On Villandry's website, they say they use it.

Madgallica, as for the Planting Fields, I suspect the reasoning for not wanting to spray is economical, labor-wise at least. In the winter, I don't recall any particular winter protection used. And, though, I haven't had a chance to ask anyone why they removed the yew hedging in the rose garden, I suspect it was to reduce maintenance going forward. The estate does have over 400 acres, after all.

Joe

Glad to help, Joe. Sounds like you have your preferences clearly in line and you know what you're looking for.

Christopher, thanks for your reports of SDLM doing fine in your zone 7. Ignore the frantic gnashing of my teeth here in zone 5, and don't feel guilty about being able to grow this fabulous rose when I can't (OK, you can feel a little guilty...). I do have a modest quibble about the 5 degrees between zone 6b and 7a being uniquely significant, since I've found the same surprising cutoff for most HTs between zone 5b and 6a. Just those few degree differences between me and Summers or Kate or Seil seems to make all the difference in so many "regular" HTs surviving or not, or between HTs barely surviving or thriving. I have HTs that are reluctantly knee-high for me that do fabulously well just half a zone warmer. Depending on what roses we're talking about, a few degrees between the threshold zones seems to make a surprising amount of difference. Neither 5b nor 6a would have happy teas or chinas, but quite a few HTs can be happy here if you hunt for them (thanks to Kordes and other hardy breeders).

Cynthia

Joe -- yes, that piece rooted rather quickly. It snapped after a storm, and I made a fresh cut on the bottom, dipped it in rooting hormone, and stuck it in a leftover annual pot with leftover potting mix. I was surprised it rooted within a month -- no other special treatment, other than leaving it in bright shade. Once I knew it was rooted, I started feeding it with some weak fish emulsion. It went into the ground just like that, and really took off. Oh, and I'm about to respond to your message now.

Cynthia -- the dividing line of 0F was more about Chinas and Teas, but it also means the difference between little or no Winter damage and having to cut back a lot in Spring on many with China/Tea blood. Here, the Bourbons have only tip-damage on shoots that didn't harden off by hard frost time. The one exception was that abnormally-cold "polar vortex" Winter of 2013-2014 -- frustratingly, the first Winter after starting this garden. Being that Hybrid Teas became so popular with the masses, there was more of an effort in selecting them for colder-than-zone-7 than there was for roses from 100 or more years ago. Then, just blooming again was still a bit of a novelty. In Buffalo (zone 6a), the Bourbons I planted were almost as severely damaged as the Chinas and Teas here their first few Winters.

:-)

~Christopher

Christopher, that's really interesting to hear that you didn't have to fuss much at all. And not potting up or anything. I knew I should have made a trip to a proper rose garden before making my order...

Joe

Joe -- message sent.

Oh, and I was surprised at how quickly that rose took off in the ground without being potted up first, since that's what I needed to do here. But my soil was compacted clay, and no garden was here before. That 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' went into an established garden, and was tended to by a very doting woman who was amazed to be growing something from the 19th Century. Where the climate suits her, 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' makes for a good ambassador to the old roses for someone who never grew one before.

:-)

~Christopher