Replaced an old exterior junction box then three circuits lost power

6 years ago

Hey guys,

Thanks for taking a look at this. I just bought a house and I'm over my head a bit. I went to replace an exterior light fixture, but the old 40s junction box didn't fit the new mounting plate. So a friend of mine who wired his own basement years ago came by and changed it for me while I was at work. I came home to multiple circuits in the house not powering lights, including the exterior light circuit.

We checked the breakers and they had not tripped, and still had power running out of them on toward the circuits that have cold outlets and switches. The breaker is new, but all the wiring in the boxes I've opened up in the cold parts of the house is from the 40s (and has no power). The new wiring was likely put in when the basement was developed as well as kitchen and bathroom update.

So my buddy is guessing there's some sort of sub panel or pony panel that collects some of the old wiring and changes it over to the new wiring somewhere in the basement, but I have a tenant and would like to exhaust other probable possibilities before going to disturb her. I think it may have had something to do with the junction box replacement work he did. Any ideas?

Thanks again,

Featured Answer

DavidR

6 years ago

After reading your post again, I'm concerned that you say multiple circuits are disabled. If you're sure that these are actual separate circuits with their own breakers, one way I can see that happening is if those circuits are "pirating" the neutral from the disabled circuit. I've seen that done in old knob and tube wiring that had been "remuddled" by a careless amateur, though not on such a large scale. It's a serious hazard for many reasons.

Don't mess around with this. Get an experienced electrician on it pronto.

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Comments (16)

DavidR
6 years ago
As the song says, correlation is not causation, but that j-box is probably where I would start troubleshooting.

If you have little or no experience in wiring, it may be best and safest at this point to call in a licensed electrician.

That said, a possible cause of your problem could be that the j-box your friend replaced feeds other boxes "downstream" of it.

Turn the power off, then remove the luminaire (fixture) and look inside the box. You should see the wires from the luminaire connected to at least 2 other wires, probably with wire nuts.

"Only 2 other wires" is a likely scenario in the old wiring of an old house, because the techniques used with knob and tube wiring for adding outlets were different from modern ones.

However, if you see 4 or more wires in addition to the luminaire wires, the box is probably feeding another one. Remove the wire nuts, one at a time, and make sure the wires are solidly connected together in each case. Remember, power off when you do this!
PS -- just so you know, unless your friend is a pro, he most likely broke the law. In most areas, homeowners who aren't licensed electricians are allowed to work on their own wiring, with permits, but not on other people's.

Good luck!
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crcb_itunes
Original Author
6 years ago
Thanks for the reply, David.

Yes, there are
currently two (and maybe a third) circuit which are currently not
affecting the state of power in the house (threw breakers and looked for
lights and outlets to go down. Two powered down nothing which is not
already dead, and one affected only one outlet). Of all the boxes which
I had opened up, they all had only 2 wires going in to the wall except
one. I am not sure about the exterior box.

Of
interest, the two circuits affect opposite ends of the house, but run
through adjacent breakers on the box, and the possible third's breaker is adjacent as well.
Bruce in Northern Virginia
6 years ago
Since you have a renter, you also need to consider your liability. When you rent out space, most cities require all electrical work to be done by a licensed electrician. You are only allowed to have DIY electrical work (with the exception of simple receptacle and switch changes, etc.) if you are the only one living in the dwelling.

Many older home were wired in strange ways (compared to current methods) so they could save on wiring costs. For example, my house has some circuits that run like a diagonal through the house, so that poor wiring of a basement receptacle might knock out power to a light on the 2nd floor. It makes troubleshooting a challenge.

Bruce
PRO
GN Builders L.L.C
6 years ago
Calling a licensed electrician would be a smart move before someone will get fried:
crcb_itunes
Original Author
6 years ago
Thanks for your advice, guys!
DavidR
6 years ago
Mea culpa. I missed the part about this being a rental. That limits your choices. You need a licensed pro. On the plus side, you'll be able to deduct his or her fee as a business expense on your taxes.
sdello
6 years ago
It's not unusal to wire opposite ends of the house on the same circuit as the expectation is that both ends will likely not be in use at the same time to limit current demand on the circuit. For example, my kitchen and bedroom outlets are on the same circuit.
crcb_itunes
Original Author
6 years ago
Oh wow, so we found a small bank of GFI electrical plugs tucked up behind the lip of the fusebox housing that had reset. I guess they are used to protect some of the house. Wish they weren't hidden, could have had power all week!
klem1
6 years ago
I'm realy surprised someone wasn't able to tell you that was the problem.
PRO
GN Builders L.L.C
6 years ago
When it comes to outdoor electric, GFI reset button that is the first thing anyone would look for... I'm sure everyone assumed since he had an "Expert" who wired his own basement looked for that and it wasn't there.

In any case, if this is a rental, he should have a licensed electrician out there and check everything out including the location of that reset outlet and move it to a more open area so if a tenant needs to reset that again has an easy access and away from a fuse box.

Electric is not something you wanna play around with if you have no clue what you doing, especially when you going to rent the place out. Period.
Denita
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
There are three systems, maybe more, on a house that really are not suited for DIY: electrical, plumbing and HVAC. Just don't do it. Get a lic and insured professional electrician out there pronto - even if you have power now as the others have mentioned. It is better to get ahead of any changes you will need to do rather than finding out after the fact of losing your power. Especially if you have a tenant. You are on notice now that the wiring is not up to speed. Find out what needs to be done to get your home into compliance and implement in stages if you need to do it that way.
DavidR
6 years ago
Denita, I admit that I've seen a lot of shoddy DIY electrical and plumbing work, but a person who's willing to study and read sufficiently can usually do at least as good a job as any mid-line pro.

For example, I have 50 years of nonprofessional experience in electrical work. I wouldn't hesitate to wire anything in my own house. I've never installed a main panel, but if the need arose, I'd learn what I needed to know and dig in.

I'm not as good or as experienced with plumbing, but I do reasonably well. Again, the key is to study up on your chore before you dig into it. Waste venting especially is an area you don't want to attack from ignorance.

HVAC? I've repaired my own furnaces and survived. :)

OTOH, air conditioning work requires specialized tools. For as often as I need it, I'd rather hire a pro.

It bears emphasizing that here I'm talking about working on my own home. I also own rental properties. I hire licensed tradespeople to work on them for me, as the law requires. I suspect my attorney would agree that's a good idea.
klem1
6 years ago
"Denita, I admit that I've seen a lot of shoddy DIY electrical and plumbing work, but a person who's willing to study and read sufficiently can usually do at least as good a job as any mid-line pro."

I agree. If that's not true we should fold our tents and let this forum fall silent.
Denita
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
^You are the exception DavidR. I was coming from the point of view of the average DIY'er when it comes to electrical, plumbing and HVAC. I happen to be in S Fl where a/c is more common than heat. Also in an area where even if you are replacing the a/c system with a like system, a permit has to be pulled and signed off by the inspector. I see too many DIY's that don't do the extensive research you do. I'm a Realtor so I see it at the point of sale and you wouldn't believe how many people patch in inappropriate electrical work or rig up plumbing! I agree, if you are working on your own home that you occupy, and have extensive knowledge it makes a difference.

However, I must mention in our area we have an inspection report (called a 4-point report) that is required by the insurance companies (here) if a home is more than 25 years (IIRC) old. The requirements were 30 years, but the insurance companies have tightened the guidelines and have an extensive form with photos that is required. The 4 points are: roof, hvac, plumbing and electrical. The inspector has to check the permits for each home showing the last update - or the update doesn't count as far as the insurance company is concerned. Naturally here, if your roof is a shingle roof and it is older than 20 years - you aren't getting insurance except for special extremely expensive coverage. I sell homes of all ages. It is not uncommon for the insurance co to require electrical panel box changes, electrical wire changes, HWH changes, roof replacements and more. Or the buyer can't get insurance at all. It is brutal. That is one very common reason I highly suggest licensed professionals that will pull a permit to do the work for which they are hired.

It probably is different in your area but many of my answers stem from practical experience as an owner, a landlord and/or Realtor selling other properties and the impact of these changes as they relate to getting somewhat reasonable HO insurance policies.

You may or may not have a similar requirement in your area. We also have wind mitigation reports - but I know that is unusual for the US as it is hurricane windstorm related. I only go by my direct experience. :)
crcb_itunes
Original Author
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Thanks for the follow up, everyone. I do find it interesting how there's more comment on this since I fixed it than before! Wish for your input earlier next time! So I don't have to fumble about and figure it out on my own.

Replaced an old exterior junction box then three circuits lost power

DavidR

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Replaced an old exterior junction box then three circuits lost power

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