Bishop's Castle appears to be safe from the big chop so far, as long as sales are good I guess.

My Pretty Jessicas (I have three) are about 1.5 feet after 8 months in my climate. PJ seems to constantly be putting out fragrant buds and blooms which at this point, don't last too long but the plants are still developing and settling in.

I'm glad you gave PJ more time, I think you'll like her a lot!

Ann

Is this why we are having a hard time finding Lady Emma Hamilton? We found a Lady of Shallot from Antique Rose Emporium, and Al is planning to order a Munstead Woods 2qt from David Austin tomorrow. However Lady Emma has been elusive. Or is it just that time of year? Do the newbies just need to (try to) be patient; watch and wait? ;-)

I feel like I've almost purchased Glamis Castle a half dozen times. There are photos of it that just grab me.

Thanks!

Shannon :-)

Hi Sun2shinie - I think your difficulty getting LEH is just the time of year. Many vendors have sold out or stopped shipping until either fall or next spring.

From my experience, I've learned to order something I'm interested in sooner rather than later. I've waited too long and found roses to be sold out and even completely unavailable. I know there are a fair number criticisms of Glamis Castle but so far it's been great in my climate.

Ann

Ann - yes, she's "growing" on me. :)

Carol

Dave, I don't know who told you that Pretty Jessica was disease prone, but just to make sure no one is misled, I want to assert that Pretty Jessica is one of my most disease-free roses.

Mine is 6-7 years old and about 3.5-4 ft tall. My only complaint about it is its balling tendency in damp weather.

It is planted right next to the back steps where it greets me every morning on my way out the door.

YMMV.

Kate

I just wanted to say how pretty some of these older roses are and how heartbroken I am that they're nowhere to be found! Any suggestions for how to acquire some of the discontinued roses?

Linda of LongAgoRoses sells discontinued Austins:

http://www.longagoroses.com/

Aaron - you might contact Palatine to find out about the cuttings they received to grow many discontinued Austins.

straw - Thanks for your link. Unfortunately this company doesn't ship to California or many states on the West Coast.

Ann

https://hummingbirdroses.com/rose-varieties/austin-english-roses/

http://www.combinedroselist.com/freedom-gardens.html

These are not all of the available Austin's at Freedom Garden just the ones that are available today. You can call or email to see if there are further roses in the pipeline. Both of these vendors ship to California.

@Ann9BNCalif I did contact them--thanks for the suggestion!! They said they'll be in touch when they're releasing them :) and @Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley thank you! I actually just got a Sharifa Asma from Peter Schneider at Freedom Gardens. He's really such a nice guy!!

The Squire is tough, now in its 8th year in my zone 5a as own root. The color is dark red in cooler weather, but brighter red with high phosphorus fertilizer in spring.

The Squire bloom lasts very long on the bush, and up to 5 days in the vase. Scent is spicy if the pH is alkaline. Bush is extremely prickly like Radio times, and both are heat and drought tolerant. The Squire bloomed in 1st week of November, but got shaded by the tall Spruce tree. Just got 2 Spruce trees chopped down, so it should bloom better next year.

Below pic. showing Blue Mist at bottom left of pic, next to red The Squire. The two 20+ year old spruce trees were chopped down yesterday 11/16/22, so I expect better blooming for both with more sun next year. Below pic. was taken this November.

Straw. your Squire is lush and gorgeous. I had forgotten about this rose and many others as Austin drops them, and sadly, they fade away. I'd like to chop a few trees down, but instead, I have to be content with spending a fortune every few years, to thin out and limb up certain trees which cause my roses a lot of trouble.

Boy, was I full of hot air, when I wrote five years ago as nanadoll, about getting rid of The Prince. I still grow The Prince, and he has improved every one of those five years, though he's still a thrips magnet, and his blooms have problems with our dry heat. But, The Prince has become a continuous bloomer, and has a beautiful growth habit. He's now over 4X4 feet. I've grown him about 16 years. He came from Pickering Nursery in Canada, no longer in business. I grow two Munstead Wood roses which are really superior to The Prince in their blooms, and much better all around roses, but I guess The Prince has sort of won my reluctant heart. Diane

The Prince's color and bloom structure can be quite changeable. These photos were of blooms in May-October.

Diane, funny how you were feeling disenchanted with The Prince but never ended up acting on it for one reason or another, and it improved every year in return. It reminds me of someone on here, I am completely blanking on the name right now for some reason and kicking myself for it, because they contribute both kindness and stunning garden photography, who posted once about a rose that didn't do well for her for what, a decade? More? And she kept it for whatever reason, and then one day it knocked her socks off. Damn, I wish I could remember who... OhOh! Maybe noseometer? Maybe.

Anyway, that was probably part of the reason I never ended up removing Le Petit Prince this year. And I probably won't next year either. I guess I'm finding it harder to go e up (give up*) on it or any of the roses really than I thought it would be. I've seen the sentiment of "life's too short to keep a rose that you don't love" bounce around here often, and in some ways I do agree. But... I guess not enough to actually live by that sentiment! Ha. I must have more of a soft spot for the underdogs in my garden than I originally thought.

Magpie, we are softies, I guess. Sometimes, there is just enough affection felt by me to keep those marginal roses in my garden, until one day I realize there is a lot to like about a certain rose. I had the same relationship with Tamora, a steadily improving rose, as The Prince. But boy, when I get really ticked at a rose, out it goes. It's been a while, but there are a few that are on borrowed time in my garden. As I grow ancient, though, I do more ranting and raving, and less action. I felt such relief about removing the thug PAoK that I knew I'd done the right thing. I have no regrets about that one. Magpie, you have so much time to kick out turkeys, shift things around, and try much that is new. I think I'm long past that stage, and I kind of miss it. Diane

The only Austin rose, old or new, that I can recall disliking intensely is Glamis Castle. The blooms smelled nasty and it was an ugly and viciously thorny beast that it gave me great pleasure to boot out of the garden. To my shame and regret I've discarded many roses in the past but this is the only one where I felt such relief and, dare I say it, glee in discarding it.

Ingrid, I felt that glee, too, when PAoK left the building. I know there are many of us that really like that rose, and that's wonderful. I'm happy that PAoK behaves for them. Diane

Yes, Diane, it seems to be an abiding truth that a rose that is glorious in one garden can be a real stinker in another. No matter, when one leaves the building another better and more interesting one will always be there to take its place. How else would we find things to talk about on these forums?

Those are stunning pictures of The Prince. I have three own-root plants of it in the ground. All are moderate growers but great bloomers. Well, one might be grafted but the best plant of it I have is own root.

I think it's remarkable that a plant can either revive or come into its own after many years. Makes me think it is good to be a little slow about getting rid of a plant. One time I got rid of a fairly new Royal Sunset from Vintage because I didn't like the color of the first bloom! That was a long time ago. After seeing whole plant pics of it I bought it again . But some plants are satisfying to toss. Some I do have regrets about tossing.

I have a Hannah Gordon that went into extreme decline but after some trees were removed it has made a strong come back. More sun has helped a number of mine.

For me Pretty Jessica is a weak grower but great bloomer. I am happy enough with some roses that want to stay small. I have a seedling from last year that is beautiful and as fragrant as any rose I've ever smelled....it is heavenly, but it's not a strong grower. It's still worthwhile to me. Might not be strong enough in a cold climate.

I sometimes wonder how it is that a person can find a rose deficient and declare that that rose is therefore deficient everywhere for anyone. To me it's a stretch to claim your experience is universal.

Erasmus, I definitely agree with your comment but the last paragraph in particular... I see it on here often enough andand find it unfortunate.

Radio Times is heavenly! Evelyn is a keeper! Abe Darby is on it’s way out. I have Abe-but gets BS-I will pot him-he’s an exquisite rose! Munstead Wood is on her way out of the US-I’d buy her asap!!!! Munstead Wood is my fav wine colored rose!!! Graham Thomas is gone..... He was my fav in CA!!!

Munstead Wood

What the best Shakespeare rose? WS2000?

KittyNYz6 Thank you for those gorgeous pics. of Munstead Wood. Both Munstead Wood and Carding Mill are the 1st to bloom in spring (May in my zone 5a), and the last to bloom until Thanksgiving.

Below bouquet was taken this Sat 11/19/22 with Munstead Wood and Carding Mill as the stars. It will be 13 F tonight, so I cut them in buds earlier. Yellow is Gold Medal, and Double Delight is upper right bud:

Munstead Wood in October and June. It has bloomed with this deep color and abundance from May into November when our early hard frosts put an end to its blooming. "It" is actually two Munsteads and a Twilight Zone that bloom as one huge shrub. Diane

Munstead Wood is SUCH a fine rose. Mine is not nearly as branchy as yours, Diane, but mine is under a crabapple tree. Still, it's great and the color is incredible. My biggest burgundy rose is Cardinal Hume. Much smaller blooms and not as full but a gorgeous color and a very willing bloomer and grower.

Magpie, I think most people seem to know that roses can do fine one place, poorly another...heck, I have some roses that are good in one spot in my yard and bad in another. Can be worth it to try again with some that at first dont seem any good.

Another great burgundy I have and I know Diane has is Ascot. Mine's grafted from Palatine and what a fine plant it is.

I tossed The Squire a long time ago and regret it.

I had Fair Bianca for a long time and it was always a weak plant but it did bloom fairly often. I tossed it. I like Winchester Cathedral better. Mine's own root...has more oomph than Fair Bianca.

Fair Bianca...guess it was pretty.

Winchester Cathedral

Ooh Erasmus, would you mind going into more detail about Cardinal Hume?

@strawchicago z5 Thank you! Munstead W. is a beauty! She is almost the first to bloom in my garden, but several others beat her in blooms first at end of May, Memorial Day weekend, & June 1. . When is your first bloom? Yours is a beautiful bouquet! (My new ordered roses bloom earlier as I plant them-they don't count as 1st bloom.)

Erasmus, Gorgeous burgandys & love Winchester Cathedral-a great rose!

Diane, , Your Munstead W. is the most gorgeous ever! I would frame that first photo of MW!!!

.

I was looking at my first blooms in May end/June 1-7th, 2022 & I found these Munstead Wood.....

Loved the big bud May 30.

Wowsa, love that wine color! Yummy decadent! Goes fan in a bouquet w/ creamy laced florals!

Above is Evelyn picked on Nov 15, 2022 after several frosts at 24 F. Very winter hardy and CONTINUOUS BLOOMING as 12th-year own-root in my zone 5a. It's my best seller among a dozen out-of-patent Austin varieties which I root to donate to charities.

Note above healthy & glossy leaves in mid-Nov. I never see blackspots on Evelyn, but I see blackspots on my Abraham Darby in poor drainage clay. For my high rain & heavy clay zone 5a: Evelyn blooms more & healthier than Abe.

Below large pink was Evelyn in a Halloween Bouquet, survived several below 30 F temp. Dark red is W.S. 2000, and white is Bolero. I prefer the violet & rose scent of W.S. 2000 over the blackberry & fruity scent of Munstead Wood. W.S. 2000 is consistently fragrant, versus Munstead Wood can lose its scents during heavy rain:

For bush beauty, both Evelyn and W.S. 2000 have bush beauty, but NOT Munstead Wood. The only time Munstead Wood has bush beauty was in spring time. Below is Evelyn, leaves are always shiny & glossy. Bush is compact at 2.5' x 2.5' max as 12th-year own root.

Below is W.S. 2000 as 12th-year own-root, bush is short & small at 1.5' x 2' max:

Below was Munstead Wood when it was 2nd year own-root (nicer bush back then). Now as 8th-year own-root it's much bigger & more messy:

@KittyNYz6 What are your several others beat Munstead Wood in blooms first June 6 & 7th?

Here in my zone 5a, Comte de Chambord and Marie Pavie (both are hardy to zone 4) bloom BEFORE Munstead Wood.

Dr.Huey-rootstock is hardy to zone 6, and my zone is 5a, so my hybrid-teas (grafted on Dr.Huey) are 1 month behind in blooming compared to OWN ROOT roses. Own roots can bloom in May, but GRAFTED hybrid teas don't bloom until late June or early July.

That's another reason I prefer own-root roses: they bloom earlier in spring, and bloom late through many 24 F frosts in mid-November.

Pat Austin, Mary Magdalene, Radio Times bloom until mid-Nov. despite many 24 F frosts, same with OWN-ROOT Veteran's Honor. Below is a Nov. 15 pic. showing own-roots blooming in my zone 5a, surviving several 24 F frosts in Oct & Nov.

Purples are Wise Portia entering winter with 24+ buds as 1st-year band-size (from LongAgoRoses), pink clusters are Mary Magadalene, white is Bolero, reds are Munstead Wood, and orange is Carding Mill. Pat still has blooms but I don't pick for the vase since it shatters.

Carding Mill lasts twice longer in the vase than Pat Austin, scent is marvelous myrrh in cold temp. in November. Tonight 11/19/22 will be 13 F, so I picked all buds for the vase:

@strawchicago z5. Gorgeous photos of roses & a wealth of info..... I’m am still reading...... for starters..... Thank you for photos & showing Evelyn’s glossy leaved beautiful bush! Yes, Abe is beautiful but BS prone.

My first blooners probably in more sun on June 1st, Kimberly, Mary Rose, Mayflower-own roots.

Then June 3rd a bunch all bloomed: Munstead W. (grafted), Grand Dame & Summers Romance , Outta the Blue, Knock-Outs-all own-roots! June 6th roses in full bloom all over.....Next few days over 50 roses bloomed & 65 more through the month! (My 2yr old Munstead W. has less sun.) Mainly, my front yard gets 6-8 hrs sun..... They all bloom first & are own root, except side yard roses like Kimberlina, floribunda bloomed first! Mary Rose, front yard, is 3 yrs old and had blooms all over, before Munstead & back yard roses bloomed. Mary Rose had most first blooms of any of 120 roses!

I am excited Comte De Chambord blooms 1st.....in your garden. I ordered her for coming to my garden in spring 2023!

Yes, my own-root in my winters usually are most healthy, grow more vigorously, may bloom longer! My DA grafted I am TLC-ing & hoping to see them do better, but they only a few days behind my own-roots in first blooms. Anne Bolyne, DA grafted, is only grafted still blooming. Princess Alexandra of Kent, Desdemona, & Harlow Carr, grafted, bloomed fall until I pruned their blooms, Most grafted stopped blooming in Nov. I realize own-root is more hardy for our freezing weather! I am sold on own-roots! Yours do sooooooo well in your extreme weather!

Wise Portia is beautiful! Do you prune height of roses? Most of my roses were 5-6’ ft so I pruned the blooms off & canes down to 2-3 ft so won't break in freezing winter winds. So lost most of my blooms to vases a week ago! I am surprised to see you reaping blooms in 20F.

I am just starting 29-32F at night all the time now...... 35-40F in days, so now not many pretty blooms left, I pruned the height of rose bushes down...... removed their blooms.. I have bush roses I don't prune.... on front hill.... they are all blooming!

Do you do any burlap or covering your roses?

I burlaped new small roses planted in August as they are weak, I have roses at top of hill that winter freezing hits hard...... this year I burlaped them, today. Mound them w/ pine bark or something?

KittyNYz6 Pine bark is acidic at pH 4. Back in 1997 in my former house of acidic clay, I mulched my dozens of hybrid teas (grafted on Dr.Huey) with pine bark, plus leaves for winter-protection. We got tons of snow that year, and all died, except for Queen Elizabeth.

Back in 1997, the neighbor nearby used ALKALINE hard-wood chips, and NOT acidic pine bark, and all her grafted hybrid teas survived winter. Her roses were on raised bed with faster drainage to prevent acidic snow & rain to corrode roots. The 3rd neighbor with the best & most healthy roses used alkaline horse manure to mulch her roses.

Snow is acidic at pH 4.5 here just like our midwest rainwater. Rain & snow is also acidic in the East coast. My current house is alkaline clay, which offset the acidity of rain & snow.

There are chunks of rock-hard clay (like cement blocks) that vinegar could not soften, so I piled up snow through one winter. In the spring, that become FLUFFY SOIL from the acidic snow corroding the hard minerals.

Snow and acidic rain can corrode roots the same way. Today husband got 10 bags of leaves from a friend to winter-protect my roses. Weather forecast state that this year 2022-23 will be more snow than normal. I'm going to ask husband to burn chunks of wood to make biochar (pH 8.6), top dress my roses with biochar, BEFORE putting leaves down.

Another choice is to get horse manure at pH over 8. Nearby stable uses shell lime to deodorize their stall, and I saw a big pile of white lime in front. It's easier to burn woods outside in the winter than to get frozen horse manure at below freezing.

Nearby rose park prune all their roses down to 1.5 feet to prevent the strong wind here from splitting the canes. Pruning tall canes make sense in my high wind climate, since the high wind here can break the canes, splitting it to the crown, thus hurting the bush. My fertile dense clay and high rain in spring can grow back the canes fast. I prune the canes after killing frost, tonight at 11/19/22 at 13 F which will desiccate & wither all the leaves.

In contrast, pruning canes before winter in sandy soil or dry climate: it would be hard for roses to grow back the canes with less nutrients in soil and less water to regenerate canes.

Magpie, my Cardinal Hume is a wide growing plant up to about 6' tall and I'm not sure how wide...maybe 10'. It's own root. Blackspot prone, but I think you're in a dry area , aren't you? Should get less bs in CO. Mine often starts new buds just as the first flush is over. I looked it up on hmf and was surprised to see it's not that old...was bred in 1982. I thought it might be more like 1940. It is not very thorny. Canes are not beefy. Could be compared to how a tea grows. I don't see much winter damage in zone 7a.

It's wider now than in 2013 when this photo which was taken :

@strawchicago z5

Yes, I can see how pine bark would not be good in addition to your acidic rain. I have some hard wood chips bark, too. i am going to test my soil & rain for acidity…… its mainly the Espoma soil on top several layers & around roses. NY Botanical Gardens-Rockefeller Rose G uses pine bark on their roses so don’t cause mildew to roses. Maybe I will stick to hard wood-oak bark. Thank you!

Princess Anne FALLS short of Wise Portia. Princess Anne has zero scent, plus a long pause in between, plus super thorny, now at 7 feet tall in November as 5th-year own-root, versus CONTINUOUS BLOOMING, smaller bush of Wise Portia at 2' x 1.5' plus fantastic scent.

The only advantage Princess Ann has: it's more vigorous for nurseries to root and sell to buyers, but the buyers are stuck with a super tall bush that demand tons of water to bloom.

I regret buying Princess Ann with zero scent, but I gladly bought Wise Portia again after it died in a spring flood (giving me 8 years of continuous blooming as a compact bush that doesn't need much water to bloom).

Wise Portia has bush beauty even as 8th-year own-root, but Princess Ann gets too tall at 7 feet tall & long pause in between flushes with zero scent. Wise Portia is MUCH HEALTHIER than Princess Ann in poor drainage clay.

One cluster of Wise Portia can perfume the entire room with its old rose & clove scent. Below burgundy purple is Wise Portia, upper pink is Liv Tyler, and white is Bolero:

Wise Portia has 20+ blooms on the bush (plus 6 blooms cut indoor), even at freezing 13 F on 11/19/22, see below pic. Bought as band-size in May 2022 from LongAgoRoses.

Below is Princess Anne in my garden, zero scent, with mainly a spring flush, and a few scattered blooms in fall. Most of the time it's just super tall & thorny sticks at 7 feet tall as own-root. I would be better off with a silk flower artificial rose bush. A 7 feet tall bush demands ungodly amount of water to bloom, such as spring rain, and fall rain in my high rain zone 5a:

If you are still hunting for discontinued David Austin roses, check out K&M Roses.

Ken I thought K and M said they no longer carried David Austins.

sharon2079 K & M has their 2023 Austins listed, see below, I translate trademark names to regular name: Website Rose 22-23 - Google Docs

List of Austins sold by K & M grafted on Fortuniana

AUSblush Heritage

AUSboard Getrude Jekyll

AUSbuff English Garden

AUScat Winchester Cathedral (white Mary rose)
AUScot Abraham darby

AUSdrawn the generous gardener

AUSencart Benjamin Britten

AUShunter Jubilee celebration

AUSjo Jude the obscure

AUSland scepter'd isle

AUSlot sophy's rose

AUSmary Mary rose

AUSmas Graham thomas

AUSmit St. Cecilia

AUSmol molineux

AUSmove Tess

AUSmum Pat austin

AUSpoly Charlotte

AUSsaucer Evelyn

AUSwalker the pilgrim

If anyone likes semi doubles, a great older Austin is Lilian Austin. I got her on a whim many yrs ago. I lost her during the move and was so glad to see High Country Roses still sells her so I could immediately replace her.

She is a carefree fluffy frilly semi double to somewhat double. She has a yellow center surrounded by warm bubblegum pink blossoms. I call her a party girl. She just looks lit from within and makes you smile when you see her blooms. Bees and butterflies love her too! Leaves stay pretty healthy in humid Florida. My garden is no spray, so that tells you something lol.

She is highly underrated and my photos of her do no justice lol.

She sometimes has a waterlily type form

Sultry I love semi doubles! Plus I love to support HCR, how is Lillian’s fragrance?

Lilian's scent is floral with a touch of myrrh in my alkaline clay, very pleasant, but I killed it since it poked me badly with its needle-thorns while I deadheaded the blooms. It doesn't bloom well in partial shade and prefers full-sun.

I agree, full sun is good here. I have a lot of humidity, so I try to grow almost everything in as much sun as possible.

Her fragrance is a light fruity floral to my nose. She can be thorny and perhaps not the best cut rose but I really love her and am content to enjoy her blooms right on the bush. She blooms alot!

Ken & Strawchicago,

Thanks for the heads up on K&M discontinued Austins. Straw, thank you for the list names.

Straw, Is Generous Gardener & Jubilee Celebration now discontinued, also? I see them listed on DA & K&M website, but I guess it will be discontinued soon?

Wise Portia is gorgeous and I’m excited to hear she blooms abundantly! She has a deep almost wine & purple color at times! Little different shape than Princess Anne. I am so amazed to hear your Princess Anne is 7 feet-Wow! If you pruned P Anne shorter would!’t she bloom more? Wise Portia is very small rose & is she available at any nursery for purchase? Is Wise Portia disease resistant?

Many of my roses take all season, but by fall finally reach 5-6ft. ( In CA, when si lived there, I oruned off 1 ft weekly, as they were growing rapidly into giants.) I don’t really want rose shrubs/hybrid teas/floribundas over 5-6ft. I suppose I can prune them to keep their height down-that’s ok, right? Pruning height should encourage more blooms?

I love Princess Anne.... She has bloomed some for me, very hardy, NO black spot, which I prize! Love her beautiful blooms! Gorgeous shape/color of blooms & petal count! I need to move her next spring, She’s grafted & on front hill-too cold a location-stunted her growth at 2 ft, winter freezes--not good location-moving her to back yard T-bed level ground next spring-DAs are growing better in back yard. Love to see her grow taller.

Some day I would like to maybe replace all my grafted DAs with own-roots. Love to see them reach their full potential in my NY freezing climate!

Princess Anne

I guess I don’t worry about watering.... it rains so much here in NY Fingerlakes region. Lol! I just have to be careful freezes don’t damage my DA.

Straw, I reread your post above on winterizing your roses ....interesting to use biochar & leaves for warming roses for winter & improve soil. I hear biochar is wonderful!!! . This year I have some leaves fallen in rose beds.... the leaves are healthy (not diseased like last year’s leaves) so I am leaving a few healthy leaves in beds. My leaves & bark will mulch roses.

Rochester, NY is bigger city has some acid rain, an hour away from me. I have more country surroundings around me., I live in a small city ... cleaner air, maybe not as acidic rain. Best to test rain on my property for acidity next spring or snow now which is soon to be here. My climate warmer & nicer than R. city by far! Yay!

Tomorrow I will finish burlapping my 30 smallest roses bushes of 120 roses. The rest are just mounded. My climbers pruned some, most leaves removed, & tied to trellises. Climbers on my south side of home are warm-fine. Climbers on my fence may be warm enough-protected.

Straw, Do you have many climbers? How do you winter protect them?

There sure are a lot of extremely beautiful roses posted here!!! Thank you everyone for posting your pictures. :) Really good discussions. :)

KittyNYz6 Love your gorgeous Princess Anne !! I have James Galway as the tallest climber. Also climbing Crimson Glory (mildew mess, need to move it), plus Kiss me Kate climber. I don't winter-protect Austin roses.

I pile up leaves on other roses. Best blooming is from winter-protection with leaves. Wood chips are low in nutrients, but biochar has more nutrients. It takes 3 HEAVY BIG bags of branches just to get a light 3-gallon bucket of biochar, so it's super-concentrated nutrients.

What annoys me about wood chips: NOT much calcium. The slow burning of wood produces biochar, which is much higher in calcium & potassium.

I can tell wood chips as NOT having enough calcium since my clay gets hardened below wood chips. In contrast, when I mulched with horse manure (on sawdust mixed with shell lime), the clay below stays fluffy rather turning into concrete like with wood chips.

Heavy rain leaches calcium out of clay, making clay hard like concrete. Calcium is what separates soil and makes it light & fluffy, and rain leaches out calcium, leaving behind magnesium (sticky and makes clay hard like concrete).

My rock-hard clay was tested super high in magnesium, and soil test recommended using gypsum since my soil pH was 7.7. After a decade of rain, my soil pH above is more acidic, but still akaline at bottom (with dolomitic rocks).

Since the top of my soil is more acidic (from high rain), I put down biochar or pelletized lime BEFORE I pile up winter-protection (leaves or wood chips).

Straw,

Biochar sounds wonderful! I may look into purchasing it for ... would be nice! I like the manure. I can see leaves decomposing faster than my shreaded bark. Some year's I have healthy leaves. I cannot rely on leaves every year..... last year it soooo much all leaves from trees had black spot.......concerned about in leaves, too. I bring in good Espoma soil.... really is nice as well as manure. Love them both. I’ll look into biochar. Thank you! Love your ideas!

How manybinchesx biochar do you put on rose soil in fall? Any other if year, too?

K&M only sells Austin roses that are no longer under patent. Jim, at K&M is 80+ years old. Does anyone really think he is worried about Austin's threat about not giving him any of the new roses?? Jim knows some of the best Austin roses were from their earlier days. Plus, some more of their nice roses will soon be unprotected. Ask yourself this question. If you own a rose nursery and Austin suddenly pulled the plug on you and you have $1,000.00's of roses in stock you can no longer sell and have to destroy, would you ever deal with that company again. Selling Austin roses that are no longer protected by patent, he doesn't have to deal with Austin INC. and does NOT have to pay them royalties. Austin cut their own throat by pulling the rug out from under rose nurseries a couple of years ago. You will soon find more and more rose nurseries selling the older Austin roses.

Ken - you are so right!

KittyNYz6 I put one cup of biochar per rose before a rainy month. Calcium (in biochar or pelletized lime) is best applied in late fall before winter-protection, or early spring. I apply biochar in late fall. Instead of paying $5 per bag to dispose of rose canes, I burn the canes for potassium & calcium in a fire-pit, see below:

Straw, Brilliant burning rose canes to make biochar! Great recycling! I realized that my soil is soooo good, having almost complrtely repkced beds with Espoma & Miracle Gro organic soils……. I don’t need to add anything else. However, I am continually digging up more clay in areas not rejuvenated yet, so I’ll need to work on those areas.

I just started a small bed on side of home about 3ft by 3ft this late fall….. I put every green scrap from spent flowers & leaves on it and threw my dead mums & used potting soil on it, too for winter mulch. I need to nake it a little acudic, too. After winter I will dig it up and mix it with Espoma organic soil. Than I am going to transplant hostas, add a rhododendrum, to it & pot a Japanese Iris in it’s center. It’s added space for my Japanese garden. I’l going to sprinkle some Japanese flowers along that side of home.

I think we may wish to continue our garden ideas on a new thread? ” My 2022-2023 Japanese Garden compliments my Rose Gardens! ”