Annie, your other post with more details got mixed into someone's else thread.

My question is what will you do if your friend makes a decision that you don't like? And what if a mistake is made on the job? The reality is if you turn over control to someone who is not paid and not a professional, you risk ruining a friendship. And that this person will walk off the job

The same thing I said in your other post about good contractors being booked is the same for good people in the trades. We went with a small design/build firm and we're really happy with them and the process. But we waited a year for scheduling - in 2012 when the market was still down.

Even with the firm, we had to be very active in the process to get the outcome we were looking for. There are no shortcuts that don't come with risk.

beachem's kitchen is looking beautiful, but the blood, sweat and tears she put into it are the reason for her success. She also shared stories of things that didn't work out so well.

If you don't want to wait and can't be available/involved, there's a good chance you will share an unhappy story like the many we read here.

Friends and business don't mix. Don't do it.

I agree with everyone. Don't use your friend. You will have disagreement about details and there will be mistakes no matter how hard everyone tries.

When the mistakes occur, the friendship will be hard hit because who's going to take the blame and cost for fixing them.

I am a fabricator.

In my experience a good general contractor is going to charge 15 - 20%. Some of them actually do a simple "cost plus" where you see the bids from subcontractors and the GC adds his cut.

20% for the GC seems like a lot but here's what you are getting if you get a good one. Note "if you get a good one."

1. The GC provides a job supervisor that manages the day to day of your project. He gets you involved as necessary. Projects that are poorly run look like "a kicked over ant hill" to quote one of my installers. Well managed ones go smoothly, on budget, and on time.

2. You get the benefit of the GC's knowledge of who the good subs are and the benefit of the GC's long term relationship with the subs.

3. In the event there is an issue with workmanship, material, or schedule you get the benefit of the GC's greater influence on the subs as he is a repeat customer and, possibly, a large customer for a sub. I have "moved mountains" on occasion to get something done for a big GC customer that I would not have done for a retail customer.

Lots of people manage their own remodels and do quite well so this is not a recommendation to use a general contractor. However, a good GC earns his money and the bigger the project the more likely it's worth it.

30-40% is what I expect to save when I remodel my kitchen while overseeing and designing the space myself vs using a one stop shop to handle everything.

But before others start barking, lets be clear that the one stop shops are much more convenient. And the money I'm saving requires more work on my part. I'm fine with that.

You're only as good as the "people" you hire out.

I have a local cabinet maker and reasonable contractor so I'll save lots of $$ there when compared to going to the big cabinet makers and paying a premium price on labor.

It's not what you know, it's who you know...

I second Oldryder about a good GC. My second GC charged me his 15% cut and a full daily rate for his time as a supervisor but was rarely on site. He didn't realize that I was home recuperating from surgery and can see all the time he was not there. I clashed with him whenever I slashed those bills. His argument is that he was available by phone to his crew.

Mind you he came highly recommended with glowing references from happy neighbors. I fired him after a fiasco which cost me an unnecessary $1000 with the plumber and when I found out his guy who was doing my wiring isn't a licensed electrician. Some mistakes from that portion will never be fixed since by the time I found out, concrete foundation is dried and the entire house has been dry walled.

When you are doing your own, you have to detail every single thing down to the exact placement of stuff. You cannot assume the subs will do it to your ideas. The good subs will always ask you detailed questions.

I drew out a detailed list every day and the installer still missed things because I wasn't there a few times. This is due to things he doesn't normally install such as toe kick drawers.

I kept reminding him about the drawers and despite that he still missed one. This means that I have to tear up one of the base cabinet or figure a workaround to put it in.

Some of my subs agreed to come after work hours or weekends. This is one way to handle the issue. It will take longer.

On the projects that I did myself, for my house, I found it actually ended up costing more. LOL! There's always the "I'm saving money by GCing myself (or DIY) , so I can fit that in" Whatever "that" is.

I did a major remodel with DH as acting GC, and a friend helping us navigate all the subs. I'll quote myself to illustrate what can go wrong: "DH, if that isn't up to specs by the end of the day tomorrow, he's fired, and then YOU'RE fired!" (Not my most patient moment but trust me it was deserved.)

We're still married, happily, and hiring a neutral 3rd-party GC for our kitchen :). It will be worth every penny.

FeatherBee:

You cannot get the thing you need the most, leverage over subs. Unless you plan to remodel 6 kitchens in the next year, you are only one job to your subs, unlike a GC who provides them with tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of work a year. These are the subs you want too. When he calls, they're telling you buh-bye, I don't care how ironclad your contract. Read all the complaints here about subs not showing regularly? That's why.

Oh, and miss one little thing, like a filler in a corner cabinet, and no drawer/door pulls for you, unless you feel like replacing the brand new countertops.

@Joseph

Maybe I'm missing something here but my contractor does 90% of the work himself (install, flooring, electric, cabinets, tile, etc). The only things he didn't do was my glass shower door and vanity in my bathroom remodel. My friend (cabinet maker) built the vanity and I used a guy my contractor recommended for the glass. I didn't need "leverage" ....

For my kitchen remodel someday I plan to do something similar - use the same cabinet maker/friend and contractor. It's not a huge job.

"Oh, and miss one little thing, like a filler in a corner cabinet, and no drawer/door pulls for you, unless you feel like replacing the brand new countertops."

I'll take my chances. I plan to reuse my existing granite but if it breaks midway thru or cabinets come out different then I'll get new counters.

"Unless you plan to remodel 6 kitchens in the next year, you are only one job to your subs, unlike a GC who provides them with tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of work a year. These are the subs you want too. When he calls, they're telling you buh-bye, I don't care how ironclad your contract. Read all the complaints here about subs not showing regularly? That's why."

I completely disagree. Good GC's know the value of a good subcontractor. They are not going to give a good subcontractor the boot simply because he is delayed to their job by a previous commitment. What about the subcontractor who works for two, three, four, or more GC's regularly? Do you think he doesn't have to juggle them somewhat?

A "one job" Homeowner can create all kinds of future work for a sub in referrals, future projects, etc. Only an idiot would see a paying client as "one job" and treat them poorly. Subcontractors who would walk off a current job because a GC said "jump" are not "the subs you want too."

Good insight Kitchen Place :)

"With our store we have a certain percentage markup for materials (cabinets, tops, tile, etc) and labor. Labor has a much lower markup than products."

For my remodel, I'll be going direct to the cabinet maker and cutting out the middle man. And yes, I'll have to deal with all the ... "planning, coordinating, scheduling, troubleshooting, delivering, checking in, checking specs, making phone calls, .etc."

So I totally see value in Kitchen Place's role.

When it comes to remodels some people like myself, has the time and ability to take on the extra work (which for me resulted in saving $$). Even If I could afford to pay someone to design my dream kitchen and take care of everything, I would still take on most of the work myself because I enjoy it (it's like a hobby to me).

So back to the OP, the more you want to save, the more you'll need to be involved. And even then there is no guarantee you'll actually be saving money. You'd have to price out both options to know for sure.

Kitchen Place is right when she warns about finger pointers. I wasn't 100% happy with my counter install but since I hired the guy, I only had myself to blame. The counter wasn't terrible. Whoever measured didn't know the little lines on the ruler. I try to live by "don't sweat the small things" so I let the 1/8" gap slide. It does catch my eye still to this day though lol.

jellytoast:

I've been a GC and a sub. There are a handful of guys who can call me and I will politely postpone work for which I've already contracted. We've been together for decades. If they are in trouble I will be there for them. If that knocks a onesie's schedule off a bit, fine by me, I'll take the hit for them.

Juggling a few jobs isn't unheard of. There is a big difference between "politely postponing" a job schedule "by a bit" to bail an associate out of a jam and saying "buy-bye" and walking off the job to start a new project. You made it sound like subcontractors can't be trusted to complete jobs because they will drop everything and run should a GC call them.

I sell real estate and know a lot of people and certainly have preferred contractors. I had someone for everything. Except, the whole thing took forever. Like forever. We gutted in February and are only now about finished. You have to have a great 'ditchen' set-up (the dining room/kitchen) with everything you need, a lot of patience and you need to be able to be there a lot. Like all the time. I don't know how much I saved and I had a good friend who is a GC who rescued me for a few things, but overall I would have hired him instead of doing this myself. But, the flip side is that the time it took allowed us to make good decisions about all the million things we didn't think about before. So if you are OK with it taking a lot longer, then DO IT!

Subbing for homeowners recently, I rebuilt two concrete sliding door sills. I wanted my new sills to be lower to provide wheelchair access. This meant I had to coordinate my idea with the pool contractor which I did.

If you get a sub who doesn't think about the trades coming after him, or aren't proficient enough in construction to see into the future as am I, you are courting disaster. My check would have cleared about a month before the pool man arrived to deliver the news that the sills have to be done over or he needs more money to regrade the concrete before the pavers go in.

There's a bit more to GCing than collecting a posse of subs and hollerin' orders from your truck window for 30%.

To answer your question, I saved easily about $10,000. by doing the kitchen design myself, by being my own GC, by using a skilled handyman for much of the work, and by doing very careful shopping and planning.

I don't think anyone is arguing the value of a GC, but it is possible to save money (or not) if you have the time, patience, and some construction knowledge. I don't think I'd be willing to turn the job over to a "handy friend" in order to save money.

Some construction knowledge is a BIG component of being successful. You're not going to be able to do this if you don't know the ins and outs of a left handed monkey wrench, and don't own a half dozen tape measures. You also need a heck of a lot of patience as the project wears on and on.

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Love that diagram, Sophie!

I went halfway. I used a small "home services" firm that did the tear out, plumbing, electrical, wall repair, window, and other installations. I planned (with GW help), sourced and bought the cabinets, granite (with installation), hardware, sink, faucet, and light fixtures; decided on (at the last minute) to refinish the floor so found floor people; and did the painting myself.

This approach saved me nearly $10k over the quotes from both full service companies that would include plans and contractors who would execute my plan but source and perform all. Note that my remodel was not extensive, was in a smaller space, no change in footprint, just repositioning some appliances which did require moving the gas line and adding a window, lights, outlets and switches.

There were delays due to me, about the floor decision and getting that scheduled, and changes in the planned counter material which the home service company was able to work around (thankfully). My only complaint in the end was with the counter granite installer -- who came highly recommended, but didn't do the quality of work that I'd seen here on GW, but who did fix what could be fixed. Still, saving $10K was worth the mild disappointment IMO.

I spent 20 years as a GC. Joseph is right. If the GC is good, he or she will look far enough ahead to make sure each subcontractor makes the next subcontractors job easy and efficient. Without a great deal of knowledge, hiring and scheduling contractors can be a disaster. The trick is finding a GC that thinks ahead and has the respect of all of his subs. That person is worth paying for and should save you time and money in the long run! The best subcontractors rarely will work with an "unknown" entity. They are busy with work from their "regulars". So, subcontracting yourself, you are already likely going to find second string sub contractors that are willing to take on the project. That all being said, this is a generalization and there are Always exceptions.

Saying that the best subcontractors will not work for "unknown" entities (Homeowners) is BS. I think it is a generalization in the wrong direction with LOTS of exceptions. How many general contractors doing residential remodels does a subcontractor have to work for in order to keep him and his crew(s) busy, all week, every week, all year long? Unless he's doing tract work, he's gonna need a lot of GCs. Every subcontractor I know (and I know many) works for both individual Homeowners and GCs.

I would think that in order to save very much money as your own general contractor that you would need to do a lot of the labor yourself, and only hire out some if to subs. When we moved into this house we needed a toilet on the main floor before Thanksgiving...my MIL had just has her knee replaced and we could not have Thanksgiving at our house without it. We had a GC (our previous across the street neighbor) come to give us an estimate, but then he realized that he did not have time to do it, so he sent us the bid from the plumbing contractor who agreed to do it for us directly for that price...but that price was better than we would have gotten if we had called the plumbing company directly. The plumbers knew exactly what they needed for the job and came out with the right parts, so it was a "one trip" job. This was because the GC sent them accurate measurements. My husband did the wall prep that the GC would have otherwise done. I am pretty sure that if we had just called the plumbers directly, the project would have cost more. (We have continued to use the plumbers and the GC gut renovated another bathroom in the old house for us to sell).