following

I don't get defensive usually unless adressed with rudeness and some sort of initial contempt but that happenned just couple times and in stores mostly..like, you know, you walk in, and they make assumptions based on zero knowledge about you or your house, or maybe they just have a bad day, and nothing to do with me personally

then I was brought up in high respect to pros..they're not created equal, in any occupation out there..but my family's first questions would always be "What's your opinion?" "What would you recommend?" etc.

And then I listen very well.

Generally I think that most people are wired by nature to do the best job possible, just because they're humans, you know..then it can go to hell while they grow up..but the main instinct is there usually, and I tend to emphasize and build on it.

I start with the assumption the instinct is there and didn't go to hell. Leading to knowledge much bigger than mine, in field X. Respect and trust.

I can't say it never ever backfired, my basic trust, no matter who a pro is(whether he's in construction, or a doctor, or a teacher, or a policeman, or a hair stylist..the consequences are different, I know)))

But if you don't start with that trust, you're endangering the whole big thing right there and right away.

The basic assumption that any Joe Schmoe’s $1.98 budget bathroom job can achieve the “same results” as a professionally photographed and designed 140K bath is the basic culprit. When people don’t have the discernment of the details that go into achieving the inspiration pic, and don’t think that hiring a designer is needed because they are “just” copying the inspiration picture, the job has no place to go but South.

99% of the time, every single “help disaster” post reveals that no proper design work was done on the front end to document expectations. And no actual skilled labor was hired either. You can’t pay $1500 for two bathrooms and a laundry room and have any expectations of even a No Tell Motel quality tile job.

Consider this...professional photography is expensive. Designers don’t pay to photograph cheap rooms. You should probably assume your inspiration photo came with a high price tag. To think you’ll achieve the same result without professional design guidance or quality materials might be unrealistic. In particular, professional designers know how important scale and proportion are to the overall look and feel of a room, and these types of intangible design elements can be difficult to get just right without experience.

A lot more goes into professional design than just selection of finishes. It often also includes research, thoughtful space planning with accurate measurements and schematic drawings, analysis of function of each item selected, detailed review of budget per item as it relates to overall investment, clear and knowledgeable communication with contractors and vendors, management of deliveries and inspection of materials.

Some homeowners can do this well. If you are not one of them, then you should definitely make sure you have realistic expectations of the final result. I like to tell my potential clients that I don’t know what they do for a living, but I probably can’t do it! It’s our job to make sure our projects are designed and managed well...and even then it’s no guarantee. So align your expectations with your experience, budget and timeline. Always.

I think its only human to see a little more of what one is hoping for, in photos, and in remodeling efforts. And sometimes it focuses on the wrong thing or ignores some other bits of reality that should be in the mix....people remodel and build because they are hopeful and want to have nicer living spaces. So sometimes they tend to focus on the bits that "speak" to them, and its hard to fully hear the constraints.

And obviously people don't know, what they don't know (both homeowners and the professionals trying to work with them)...it can go every which way. Communication is really hard. I've had experiences with pros who clearly didn't understand what we were asking for -- maybe its my fault in not expressing my wants / styles / needs clearly.

I'm sure that 99% of people posting on Houzz feels they have put forth a very clear question --- and in response, I think 99% of responders need additional information. The folks posting "how are my house plans" -- nearly all of them are the same train wreck waiting to happen. This, exactly: "I keep seeing posts where the home owners have expected end results and yet are surprised by them."

I agree communication is key which I guess what I was trying to say lol. Yes, some pros (they are usually the best ones) will ask you, knowing you don't even know always what to ask, while in order to get the best answer, one should know to ask questions. They know they're experts, and they'll educate you, and will help you to come up with these questions.

others might presume you don't ask because you know.

They shouldn't presume; you(a homeowner) shouldn't presume either))

But it might take some time to figure it out. As with everything new you start.

I was our own designer lol, but I read tons of books through years, without knowing I'll get myself in a very big remodel some day, just because it started being very intersting to me. And when I knew that's what's happenning I started reading more and more and more. (I didn't know about these forums though until we were close to our finish line..which is a pity I think)

And even talking to myself was hard as hell)) A person I know! LOL

I do not want to put all the responsibility on home owners because there is sometimes both bad workmanship and also good pro's can make mistakes with a new material.

But in my case a big issue was my lack of communication with the tiler. My designer and architect spec'ed the tile design that I loved and my tiler said it would be a slight up grade on labor and material allowance but no problem... I picked out my tiles not knowing the spec recommendations for grout and pattern . I should have read those specs and learned about lippage systems myself. I used the supplier my tiler works with and he ordered through his account and he was responsible for receiving the tile so he too should have let me know about the issues he was having working with the product instead of carrying through hoping no one would notice the lippage. I would have paid more for the time saved to do it nice.

It was actually my GC who brought the issue to my attention and insisted it be made right by the tiler, who did it with out arguing infront of me atleast, I did pay for a lippage system the second time but that was minimal. so although a mistakes happened, I think good pros are willing to work with owners often to right the issues but I did feel partially to blame for this problem.

Roarah, maybe I'm not understanding, but why wouldn't your GC have ensured a correct install of the chosen tiles the first time around? How on earth were you supposed to know about that particular tile and lippage?

Good question hb, maybe that was why my GC made sure it was corrected. Maybe he knew it was his responsibility for he selected my subs. He was not here 100 percent of the time and saw the floors after grouting was dry, i.e. Day 3 of floor install. It was a small room and GC and tiler would be in each other's way. I ended up with a great finish project in the end.

I still should have known to read the specs. I read every specification pdf before buying my washing machine, refridgerator, dishwasher etc but did not on the tile which was a similar price... Why do we not read the specs on tile, cement board etc when we do for appliances?

I feel like a homeowner should be able to hire experienced professionals and count on those pros to do quality work and effectively communicate expectations. But how do you know you have a good pro without doing your own due diligence? OK, don't hire the lowest bidder...but do you have to hire the highest bidder? Does it have to be a full-service architect, contractor, designer team? How do you know the expensive guy is doing a good job?

I think a lot of folks on here with issues believe they are paying a lot and hiring a good pro, but really price is low comparatively. And contractor is below average skill, or has the work skill but not communication skill.

For my remodel, I worked with a few designers on an hourly basis and a GC who communicated well and was in the middle of the pack price-wise. Love the final result, but there are flaws that I think could have been avoided by better plans and better GC. If I did it again, I would have probably given more consideration to the pricey design-build firm that I wrote off as too-expensive.

My GC was pricey , he was the highest of my quotes but I felt his price break down and contract protected us more than the less expensive ones. Some of the issue was that although my GC was great and all but one sub he hired was exceptional we had a not so great tiler who came with great credentials but was off on my job at least.

Maybe he was better on other jobs and was having a personal crisis during mine or other's standards are not great or because my house is not terribly high end he thought I was a sucker who did not know quality or specs so he would cut corners to make more profit. My GC no longer works with him but had in the past. He had other guys who were unavailable for my job so used this tiler. However, in the end the same guy who made bad mistakes was able to right them with not much fiscal loss to me, I did buy the lippage system and we lost time.

I guess I think if I had been better self informed I could have avoided all issues and saved money and time for all parties involved. I second guess my own doctors and down loaded every ncbi study on treating CRC when my DH was diagnosed why did I trust a tiler more than a doctor. I am doing more research for my next project and will reuse the GC for I do trust him and he finished on budget a slightly behind on time due to weather and tile issues.

I see two different issues here. One is people looking at an expensive room on Houzz and thinking they can make their room look like that for pennies. That is unrealistic. If you go with the cheapest labor, you will usually get what you pay for. And if you go with tile from a big box store, it will likely not look like the Ann Sacks that you saw in the picture.

The other issue is whether you can/should trust a professional to do their job correctly, or whether you are foolish not to do the research every time you spend big money on a job. Roarah, I don't know why you are blaming yourself for not having researched the tile specifications. You are not a professional tiler. Your GC hired a professional tiler, and he should have known about the potential problems and explained them to you before he laid a single tile.

When we renovated our kitchen and two bathrooms seven years ago I knew nothing about tiling, or really any other aspect of renovation. I relied on our GC (who also did the tile work) to help me on the layout, and to tell me what could/couldn't be done. I paid quite a bit of money for the reno (I live in NYC suburbs, so labor costs are high anyway) and I maybe (naively) expected that he know his stuff and he would do a good job for me. Luckily he was a very good GC and a very good tiler. I was quite happy with our job, although of course you always come up with things you would do differently if you were doing them again. I understand that my luck could have gone the other way with a different contractor.

I recently reno'd our downstairs level and needed 600 feet of LFT laid to replace existing carpet. When I had the job quoted, I was hoping to find someone cheaper than the original contractor, and I got two other quotes in addition to his from contractors who were highly recommended by friends and neighbors. Original contractor told me about the issues involved with LFT, and warned me that his quote would be high because of all the prep/leveling work involved. Contractor #2 wanted to lay the tile right over the existing carpet (!!??). Contractor #3 told me that he could do whatever layout I wanted with whatever sized grout line and it would come out just *fine* and he could do it very quickly. Ironically, all three quotes were in the same high ballpark price-wise. Anyone with common sense would reject Contractor #2's tile-over-carpet solution, but would it have been crazy to go with Contractor #3 if you didn't know the about the issues with LFT? Once I heard the difference in approach between the original contractor and Contractor #3, I read up on LFT issues because I wanted to see who was right, and ended up rehiring the tried and true contractor. But conceivably, I could have gotten several bids from highly recommended contractors and not have been told about these issues at all.

But if you are a regular homeowner who has no interest in reading design forums or tile manuals, shouldn't you be able to hire a tiler without reading up on tile specifications? Assuming you are not looking for a ridiculous bargain basement price for the labor, or not overlooking other glaringly obvious warning signs, I think you should be able to trust that your professional tile layer knows how to lay tile, and if you get screwed, blaming yourself is misplaced blame, IMO.

The professional that you should be able to trust with design details is not a contractor. A designer designs. A contractor implements the design.

A good designer works with a skilled contractor to make ideas and reality mesh. It takes both design and implementation working together.

I'm curious as to who's responsibility it is in Rorah's scenario. She had a designer, an architect a GC and a professional Tiler. Who should have mentioned the lippage? Who should have calculated the amount of tile?

As a designer, I always calculate the amount of tile needed and then ask the contractor to confirm the number. I also determine the layout based on my experience and product specs. We draft detailed tile elevations to avoid any miscommunication with the installer.

1. My GC and architect worked together a lot and I paid a fee to keep my architect on during construction because my house is almost 100 years old and sometimes things do not go as planned. But I did not think to do this with my designer.
2. She was on sight a handful of times. Took measurements, went to tiler's recommend tile supplier with me to select choices, drew tile scheme's with grout and pattern specs, that my tiler said he could handle, helped with a few tweaks to the orginal floor plan and helped to unify the room but never discussed things with anyone but my husband and I. I used a kitchen and bath supply store's designer so I guess that might have been the issue and as I already had an architect's oversight I did not think to use her more. Again I might not have known how important that aspect is for I failed to do enough due diligence.
3. On my kitchen I have hired a proper designer not affiliated with a store's line. I am happy with how my bath ultimately came out. And it was not terribly expensive, 103" addition with plumbing from scratch and new sewer to existing line yards away for under 70k, plus architect fees is moderate cost in my area so I got what I paid for in the end but did learn lessens along the way as how to avoid some stress and issues next time around hopefully.

"Are too high expectations leading to unsatisfactory results and unrealistic responsibilty for the pros?"

Yes. We see this regularly here with homeowners complaining about stone with movement not matching at seams. They're stone fabricators, not magicians.

A big, annual "Home Show" was in my town last weekend. It was a slow news weekend, so the local 11PM news had about a 3-5 minutes segment on it, interviewing both vendors and those attending (future customers). I was appalled at the lying of the vendors and how incredibly gullible the customers were. "Oh, you'll probably DOUBLE the money you invest in this wonderful new bathroom with the fiberglass tub/shower combination!" The man grumbles, but his wife says, "But you promised me we'd finally do the bathroom, and it's going to MAKE money for us!".

Yes, most of the general public are totally unrealistic. We see that right here on GW. Title of post: "Please help me with a quick, cheap fix for my dated kitchen!" Well, no kitchen can be "fixed" all that quickly - even DIY takes time. Then throw in "cheap"? Well, the result will look "quick and cheap", not like that $150,000 kitchen you saw on Zillow.

When I went into the kitchen/bath store about remodeling my kitchen, my expectations were very low. I had a low budget, relative speaking. Kitchen re-does in my neighborhood typically are in the $50-60,000 range and that's without moving walls, gas or water lines, and no really expensive appliances such as SubZero etc. My budget was half that.

While I was waiting for the only salesman there on a Sat afternoon about 30 minutes from early closing, I noticed three frames on the wall. On each one, was a line-item list of what one could get for a specific price. Think, "low, medium, and deluxe". Now, this I liked! It was very clear that if ones budget was low, it would not include a SubZero and Wolf range etc! I knew immediately, I could work with this man. And I was right - we worked VERY well together. But I was realistic and he was open and honest. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen all that much these days.

I also called a relator whom I have known since we moved here in 1984, who sells more real estate in my neighborhood than anyone, and asked her opinion about remodeling. She was quite frank - said do it for myself as today's buyer in this neighborhood will rip out a 3 yr old beautifully done kitchen, because it's "not their taste". I knew this was true on the Gold Coast of CT where DS lives, but I didn't realize it had come to my rather conservative old town, but it has. Lots of young people with VERY high expectations and lots of money. That's who is buying houses in m neighborhood today. Often, they unfortunately have no taste.

At age 74, I've pretty much come to the conclusion we now life in a DIY world. We cannot assume our doctor will take the time to do a bit of detective work to discover why we are having an odd reaction to a drug or treatment, we need to be VERY careful dealing with a body shop (all original parts ONLY), we need to know the basics of just about everything, pros or no pros. It's also rather exhausting to have to be doing this at my age and in my poor health, but I do - it's do or die!

Anglophilia, good point about the resale push to remodel. I have always looked at house purchases and changes as money spent not invested. Historically, in the US, homes only averaged a 3 percent return of money after 30 years. The eighties and early 2000s were an anomaly not a normalcy but people still think houses will make them money. They will make your retirement easier if you down size but your initial money spent put into stocks would have yielded far greater returns than a house as a general rule. Houses should be looked at like savings accounts with little yield.

Hmm if someone posts that they're on a budget, they're acknowledging some limitations and asking for help with trade-offs. Yeah there's always someone with crazy expectations, but if they're not doing a gut remodel, people seem to understand that it's not going to be a pro/Houzz-worthy result. There ARE cheap aesthetic improvements (without remodeling): paint the soffit, remove curtains, de-clutter, add a rug.

I think the most painful reality check is for posters who feel like they've spent a lot. Then the result isn't as expected, and they're hearing they handed their hard-earned $1500 or $30,000 to the $1.98 contractor.

I totally agree on the "make money on remodel" idea--ridiculous. I had a GC I was interviewing trying to make that argument, no dude no. I'm in a hot real estate market, my house was going to appreciate and sell fast even with the old falling apart kitchen and bath. You're not gonna do it cheap enough for the market to pay for it.