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Please help me save my dracaena (song of India)

Hannah Nichols
6 years ago

I live in NYC, and purchased my Song of India about 2 months ago from a garden center where it was growing indoors. It has consistently been losing leaves, which I was told was normal for the plant, and normal when a plant is transitioning to its new home. I repotted the plant 3 weeks ago. I started giving it liquid plant food (measured according the the bottle) with its waterings (once every 12 days) in the hopes of giving it some extra strength. I am concerned because I decided to count how many leaves it was losing, and it has lost nearly 100 in the past week as you can see from the picture below. I am nervous that the plant will continue to lose leaves at a fast rate until there are no leaves left. Initially I thought that because there was a healthy amount of new bright green growth (pictured) that the plant was doing fine and just getting used to its new environment, but now I'm not so sure. Could it be getting too much light? Not enough? As an inexperienced plant owner, I don't know what to do. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Hannah





Comments (24)

  • litterbuggy (z7b, Utah)
    6 years ago

    I always suspect watering issues, so I'll ask some basic questions to get us started:

    Does the pot have a drain hole? It absolutely has to in order for the plant to survive.

    Many people put a layer of gravel in the bottom of spot, but that actually impedes drainage, so take them out of you did.

    Did you put the plant in a bigger pot and add new soil around the old root ball (potting up), or did you remove all the old soil from the root system and replace it with new soil (repotting)? Did you at least loosen up the roots and try to get the new soil into them?

    What did the old rootball look like? Hard soil, almost no soil, thick roots encircling the pot, lots of fine white roots, no fine white roots...?

    What kind of soil is it in? If you potted up, is the new soil very different from the old?


    Hannah Nichols thanked litterbuggy (z7b, Utah)
  • Andrea ME z5b
    6 years ago

    You need to give us a little more info about its growing conditions; how much light does it get? how often are you watering? The browning tip does look like rot, is it soft and mushy or dry? It is totally normal for a plant to suffer a bit of shock after being moved to a new environment and lose some foliage but that's a lot of leaves and the rotting tip is not a good sign....

    Hannah Nichols thanked Andrea ME z5b
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  • tropicbreezent
    6 years ago

    I agree it looks primarily a water problem. You need to fix that fairly quickly. But additionally, if you've got it in a shady area without sufficient light you'll lose leaves from as well. I have quite a bit of Dracaena 'Song of India' in the garden where it gets full sun for long periods of the day. They do like the brightest light. But if you do move it out into the sun keep in mind you need to do it slowly over a period of time so you aclimate the plant and not end up getting it sun burned.

    Hannah Nichols thanked tropicbreezent
  • Hannah Nichols
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Thank you everyone so much for your responses!


    Litterbuggy:

    The pot has one drain hole that is about the size of a quarter in the very center of the pot. The last time I watered the plant I used 1 and 1/2 gallons of water (is that too much?) the last time I watered it 10 days ago, thinking I should water until I see water draining out of the bottom, but the water never came out of the bottom, which makes me think that the one drain hole isn’t enough. I am going to include a photo of the pot. The pot is 22.5 inches in diameter, so it's very large. I'm thinking of drilling more drainage holes into the bottom of it and propping it up on some bricks to ensure that water won't get trapped underneath it, because it appears to me that the pot is so heavy that regardless of the drain hole, the water doesn’t have any space to drain out from. I hope that makes sense.


    When I repotted the plant, what I did was what you described as potting up. I did not try to remove old soil from the plant. When I touched the roots they were pretty firmly locked in place and I wasn't sure how much I should disturb them. I have a moisture meter, and when I stick it into the soil the plant appears to be dry in its root system, and the new soil surrounding it stays moist. Not sure if that's normal.


    As far as the rootball goes, I'm not sure about whether there were lots of fine white root hairs. The plant was definitely rootbound, as in it was time for it to be repotted because the root system was made up of very thick roots that had grown into the shape of the previous pot that it came in. They had started to grow in a circle, following the shape of the pot. There was not a ton of soil to knock loose from the roots. It was mostly roots. The soil did appear to have some salty looking mineral build up in it. The new soil that I potted the plant in was a mixture of 1/3 cactus soil and 2/3 regular indoor plant potting soil (at the advice of the employee where I bought the plant) The new soil didn’t appear to be very different from the old.


    Andrea:

    The plant lives right next to a window which faces southwest. It is exposed to indirect light all day, and the sun is beaming directly onto about a quarter of the plant for about two hours a day before sunset when my room gets the most direct light.

    I am watering once every 12 days, using a moisture meter to make sure that the plant is dry before watering. The first two times I watered I used tap water that had been sitting out overnight. The next two times I watered I used distilled water mixed with plant food (pictured) that is 10-10-10 (1 tsp per gallon of water as per directions).

    The brown tip that you mentioned is mushy and soft. There are two like this on the plant(pictured), however there are several other (I counted 13) that are a healthy bright green with no signs of the brown rot (one even on the same branch as the brown ones), so thankfully those two unhealthy looking ones are the exception.


    Tropicbreezent:

    Should I move the plant to be directly in the window rather than next to it? I have included more pictures to show the amount of light it gets. It is partly cloudy outside today.



  • Hannah Nichols
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Hey Dave,

    What sort of fertilizer would you recommend? Should I move it directly in front of the window? If I do should I do so gradually? Should I get it a grow light? Should I just let it get used to the less than ideal amount of light that it's getting now? The original pot was 18" in diameter, I believe. Is a full repot something I should attempt on my own? it's tough because the tree is so huge! What sort of fast draining mix do you recommend?

  • Dave
    6 years ago

    A lot of us here use Foliage pro 9-3-6. It just about the best one you could use.

    Even miracle gro 12-4-8 or 24-8-16 have much better NPK ratios than a 10-10-10.

    Id put the plant right in front of the window, yes.

    i would put the tree back in the 18" pot for now until you're ready for a repot. The repot should be done sooner than later.

    We can work you through it if you'd like.

    It involves removing all old soil from around the roots. Untangling the roots and pruning any problematic ones. You must keep the rootmass wet constantly during the repot when it's out of soil.

    A good fast draining mix would be the 5:1:1 mix. It's a homemade mix which you'd make yourself.

    5 parts pine bark fines. 1 part perlite, 1 part peat and some dolomite lime.

    Hannah Nichols thanked Dave
  • Hannah Nichols
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Wow, thanks so much Dave. Unfortunately I cut the plant out of the temporary plastic pot that it was in and threw it away. I guess the first thing to do is work on making that 5:1:1 mix. Can you recommend a good repotting tutorial?

  • Tiffany, purpleinopp Z8b Opp, AL
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Dave, I offered a very similar reply regarding this plant (repotting vs. potting-up) on another forum site.

    Hannah, I'll continue here instead of trying to follow 2 conversations. The advice from Will on the other site is in conflict with what has been learned by bonsai masters being able to keep their potted trees alive for hundreds of years. If roots need more room, simply potting-up can cause roots to rot, and at some point, one has to declare that the pot is as big as it can get. That looks like a huge pot, in beautiful proportion to the amazing tree, and a woody entity will use all of the space in any size pot, if given a chance and a soil that allows the roots to grow vigorously and healthily.

    But he does make 2 good points, that the tops of the plant may be too tall to get enough light, and that fertilizer is not medicine. I don't fertilize Dracaena plants at all.

    If it was my plant, and I did not have a taller window available, I would do some trimming &/or get a grow light. Each stem will continue to get taller. Each removed piece can be rooted to make more plants.

    Letting tap water sit is advice that comes from a time when most municipalities used a form of chlorination that can evaporate. Now a non-evaporative form is used by most, and other things like fluoride and lime can't evaporate. Whenever possible, using distilled will prevent those things from getting into and building up in the soil. Very important when one has a plant sensitive to these things, and the pot is much too big to cart to the sink every time it is thirsty.

    Applying water in more of a sprinkle, than a stream, will allow you to apply some evenly to the surface, so it can soak evenly into all of the soil, with as little overflow as possible. With a big pot like this, putting bricks between pot and saucer can be helpful, allowing more room for overflow, and preventing roots from sitting in the overflow, which could cause them to rot. A turkey baster might be a good tool to dedicate to this plant, to remove excess water from the drip tray after watering.

    Making sure the drain hole(s) is not blocked is important.

    As long as the excess water can escape, and the soil is airy enough that roots do not rot while moist, you only need to concern yourself with ensuring that it does not dry out, and not need to try to intuit, use moisture meter, dowel, or any other device to gauge the moisture level of the soil, just add more often enough that it does not get dry. This will allow your plant to have consistent conditions, vs. spending its' life fluctuating between soil that is too moist & airless and soil that is too dry.

    Hannah Nichols thanked Tiffany, purpleinopp Z8b Opp, AL
  • Hannah Nichols
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Thank you Tiffany.

    Well, it looks like my course of action here should be

    1:Prune the tallest branches on the plant

    2:Move plant directly in front of the window

    3:Make a mixture of 5:1:1 soil

    4:Prop planter up on some bricks, add more drainage holes to be safe, and ensure they aren't blocked

    5:Fully repot the plant with new soil

    6:Continue to water using only distilled water and cease fertilizer use at least for the time being

    7:If leaves are still dropping, add a grow light


    What does everyone think about that as a course of action?


    Thanks again for all of your help.


  • Tiffany, purpleinopp Z8b Opp, AL
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    That sounds like the road I would start going down if this amazing tree was mine. I have many diff Drac. trees and the older ones would be that tall if I did not periodically trim them so they stay short enough to get enough light on the foliage.


    Hannah Nichols thanked Tiffany, purpleinopp Z8b Opp, AL
  • Hannah Nichols
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Tiffany and Dave,

    Would either of you be able to provide me with a link to a good repotting tutorial?


    Thank you

  • Dave
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Maybe Tiffany knows of a link, I don't though. I'm sorry.

    Here is what I do:

    remove the plant from the pot. Start massaging the root mass to loosen it up. If it's being stubborn, spraying it with s hose can help. You can be rough with it, but just don't rip off massive chucks of roots.

    start pulling and untangling all of the outer circling roots. You can prune off and long ones that never seem to end.

    Keep spraying the roots every minute or so to ensure they stay wet the whole time.

    Your soil should be already mixed and ready to go at this time.

    Fill the bottom of the pot and place the plant in as straight and center as possible. Then you can start filling the sides. Shake and bang the pot down as you add soil to help it settle and fill in between the roots. Some even use chopsticks to get soil into the root mass. Make sure there are no are pockets in there.

    water thoroughly at this time.

    the particle size in the mix you make is very important. If you're unsure if you have the right type of pine bark, feel free to ask in this thread.

    Hannah Nichols thanked Dave
  • Tiffany, purpleinopp Z8b Opp, AL
    6 years ago

    I do it a little differently, starting by laying the unpotted plant on its' side and using a shovel to chop off the "pancake" of roots that forms at the bottom, the bottom 4-8" of the root ball, depending on its' height and appearance once unpotted.

    That should allow the old soil to fall away easily. Then trim away any remaining giant roots, and any that would have to bend to go back into the pot.

    I do everything possible to not let soil get compacted into the pot while refilling, so there are many tiny air spaces retained throughout the soil when I am finished, and water with a gentle sprinkle for the first month or 2, so the soil particles can lock into place and not become compacted by the force of a strong gush of water. The level of the soil should be at the same place on the plant as it was before. With a bigger plant like yours, it helps if one person holds the plant in place while another fills around it with the new soil.

    This usually takes about 5-10 minutes. I don't bother trying to moisten the roots during this procedure.

    Taller plants may be unstable, and a few rocks around the base of the trunk(s) can help keep them upright while the roots establish in the new soil. Not much of a concern for an indoor plant where there is no wind blowing.

    Hannah Nichols thanked Tiffany, purpleinopp Z8b Opp, AL
  • Dave
    6 years ago

    Tiffany, what type of soil do you usually work with? With the 5:1:1, I've found compaction seems almost impossible with the bark.

    I also find that mix needs a thorough watering immediately as it's on the dry side.

    I guess my method was very soil specific and I've never been one to cut through the roots first. I like to try to untangle and see what I'm working with before I remove anything.

    Both ways will work just fine. Not trying to confuse the op, just asking questions out of curiosity.

    Hannah Nichols thanked Dave
  • Tiffany, purpleinopp Z8b Opp, AL
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    What is in a pot does not matter, as long as it's not toxic to the plant in some way, just its' texture & ability to retain moisture & oxygen @ the same time. If it has no inherent fertility, very effective fertilizers exist to serve those needs.

    I don't doubt you at all. I don't have access to ingredients for that so I can't offer any feedback about it.

    If buying a bag, I look for cactus/palm soil, but go more by weight over what it says, and look for a broke bag to inspect and make sure there's no peat in it, and hopefully not much perlite. If it's not lightweight for its' size, it's not helping me reduce the weight of larger pots, and probably not going to help with keeping more oxygen in the soil.

    Digression alert, probably on this whole post...

    I don't want to be confusing either, and do not offer any of this as a recommendation because it has evolved over quite some time of trial'n'error, and other, personal factors like personal acute dislike of perlite & seeing those little white things in my pots, a lot of reading about roots & microbiology, dislike of spending much $ to have something in a pot in which a plant can grow, realizing that if there is no peat, I can probably keep a plant alive, ...and especially to someone in the middle of a city without a yard.

    I'll use anything but peat/potting soil, and often add some roughage from compost pile. Dracaenas grow fine in ground dirt from the "good dirt" part of a tended plot, especially if I'm going to repot them often anyway. Fine for smaller plants but way too heavy for a plant of decent size.

    Since all old "dirt" gets put into flower beds, I don't put anything in pots that I wouldn't put in/on the ground. This is why I quit buying flats of annuals to use in the ground and started putting my house plants instead, because I kept finding styrofoam instead of perlite in the soil of them. I refuse to bury other people's non-biodegradable trash in my yard.

    Hannah Nichols thanked Tiffany, purpleinopp Z8b Opp, AL
  • Hannah Nichols
    Original Author
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Just pruned the tallest braches this morning. Going to start with this and wait to see if I have to get more aggressive. Thank you, Tiffany and Dave for your tutorials :)

  • Dave
    6 years ago

    Thanks Tiffany! Even though we do things a little different, it doesn't make one wrong or one right.

    Each method obviously works for us so maybe the OP can take a bit from each of our posts.

    Hannah Nichols thanked Dave
  • sydney626
    6 years ago

    Hannah Nichols - Don't throw those cuttings away!!!!! And if you did, can you still retrieve them? Believe it or not, this plant is incredibly resilient and a breeze to propagate. With those cuttings you can ensure that you will still have a D. Reflexa should something go awry with the big one.

    Hannah Nichols thanked sydney626
  • Hannah Nichols thanked sydney626
  • Hannah Nichols
    Original Author
    6 years ago

    Hey Sydney! Thanks so much for those links. How would I go about propagating the trimmings? I've heard conflicting info from people. One person says you can propagate an entire branch, and the internet makes it seem like when you propagate you can only us a small trimming with 2 or 3 leaves.

  • Tiffany, purpleinopp Z8b Opp, AL
    6 years ago

    Any size piece should work. My biggest one so far was about 3 feet. Just stick them in a pot big/deep enough so they can stay upright. Smaller pieces are said to work also. All of the pieces I've propagated have been at least a foot long.

    Hannah Nichols thanked Tiffany, purpleinopp Z8b Opp, AL
  • tropicbreezent
    6 years ago

    Longer tends to be better. The stems store a lot of food reserves for the plant, the more food reserves the easier it is for a cutting to make a new start.

    Hannah Nichols thanked tropicbreezent