Erin,

I would wait a week and then do a normal spray. Better to be safe than sorry.

The disease damaged foliage does not restore to normal, so for a good while after a consistent spray program is under way, the roses will not look much better than before the spray program was initiated.

The NEW foliage will be beautiful and clean, so your bushes will be in the pink again. Be patient, you will turn around your roses' health.

After about 4 weekly spray sessions you can probably stretch sessions out to up to two weeks. Play it by ear. Watch your foliage carefully, and respond accordingly.

Every year is different regarding disease pressure. Different varieties of roses often have quite different disease tolerance levels. Pressure is light some years, and horribly severe other years. Also, a year can start out clean with no disease, then suddenly, WOW!

There have been times when it has been a light year and in late October, just before dormancy, black spot becomes epidemic!

The best approach I have found is to spray for disease on a preventative basis.

Moses

Kate, good question, temps were probably in the low 60s this morning when it was applied.

Thanks Moses, very encouraging to know this is normal. One question for you, what if the new growth is all curled up like you might see with Downy Mildew, does that mean that the last spray didn't take as well? I'll do as you say, wait a week and then spray again.

Erin,

In our humid climate powdery mildew is usually a spring or fall phenomenon, but by no means always so.

The ideal weather conditions for mildew to thrive are dry, no rain periods with hot days and cool nights....such as one encounters in spring and fall, more so in fall.

Usually not a major disease issue for us as black spot surely is, powdery mildew can be harder to cure/control when it rears its ugly head up.

One of our forum members, Zack Lau, recommends plain Immunox (the no fertilzer in it kind), as a more effective powdery mildew killer than the Bayer fungicide.

Your last spray was probably effective, but remember, damaged leaves are not restored to smooth, flat, and rich green leaves. When you spray you kill the present fungus on infected leaves which prevents spreading to healthy leaves. Healthy sprayed leaves are given resistance to fungus even getting started on them. That is why a preventative spray program is the best approach. It prevents fungus start-up in the first place.

Both downy and powdery mildew cause leaf curl. Sometimes strange weather conditions causes leaf curl, not a fungus infection. Still, in most cases it's a fungus issue that is curling leaves.

Moses

I like the Bayer, I don't follow any schedule, just spray when jap beetles come back, eek! Bugs are bad this year here in Michigan, they're on everything!!

You must be talking about the Bayer with insecticide, no, I don't use those, I just can't deal with the idea of accidentally killing birds & bees and butterflies especially. To each their own!

It looks like this thread has answered the specific questions in the original post. The last post brought up one aspect of safety if an insecticide is added. But what about the long term safety of the original product?

See:

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1701112/bayer-advanced-disease-control-is-it-safe-to-use

Latest paper that I could find:

http://www.pharmahealthsciences.net/pdfs/volume4-issue62016/11.vol4-issue6-2016-MS-15353.pdf

Henry dear, every time when someone mentioning about Bayers insecticide, you jump out from the sky. Lol It works every time. I am glad you are talking to us, hope you're in good health until 120...... but I have to tell you, I have to spray Bayers for rose midge tomorrow, it's way overdue, we have had too many raining and windy days in the past 2 weeks, can't keep up with the every 10 days spray schedule. If you know any better ways to control midge, please let me know. If tomorrow is still windy, I might just wear my motorcycle helmet to get the work done. :-)

summersrhythm_ This thread is not about Bayers insecticide.

There are 337 threads about rose midge in this forum.

http://www.gardenweb.com/gardenweb/query/%22rose-midge%22

Ops, I spoke too soon about the most recent paper. This paper was available about the same time (21 December 2016):

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0269749116308612

(Tebuconazole is the main active fungicide ingredient in the Bayer Advanced Disease Control .)

SR,

I have for a long time with excellent results. A large public rose garden over here mixes mit icides, fungicides, and insecticides together with great results...has for years.

I mixed the Bayer Complete for midge, Bayer rose and Flower Fungicide, and Tetrasan 5 wdg for mites in this morning's spray with no negatives.

Just watch the temps...beware of spraying when it's 80 or more.

Moses

Thanks Moses for the info!

Well since you all mentioned it, one of my other big problems is mites. Moses, do you know where I can buy a reasonable amount of TetraSan? I looked online and it was $139 everywhere I could find it for sale! Also any recommendations on the best fungicide for cercospora?

Henry, I love reading your peer reviewed research articles, please do keep posting, they are so informative and very interesting. I like to be as informed as possible on all decisions concerning what I spray in my little ecosystem.

I thought I replied to your first set of links but I guess it got lost in the interwebs. I have to tell you that I've probably read that first link, the thread on Tebucanazole, a hundred times! Even though by all accounts I should've been spraying Bayer Advanced since last fall when every one of my "resistant" roses came down with PM, I just couldn't do it based on everything I've read, a lot of which you've linked to. So fast forward to now and I've about had it with my roses. What is the point of putting so much time and effort into plants that never look good? I know it's probably 50% user error, but I just realized that I only have so much time left in this growing season and I have to get rid of this disease/s if I want to see any flowers. I've only been able to spray the stuff twice, and by I, I mean my husband! He wears old clothes, completely covered, where's a mask and takes a shower immediately upon coming in.

But, I want you to know, I'm still hesitant to spray any chemicals. I'm kind of in this mess because I wanted to try a "no spray" garden last year!

I have posted a number of times over the years that it appears to take about 5 years for a no spray approach to be effective. I had about 1000 roses in my no spray garden. There are two points to consider.

1) Nature reaches an equilibrium. I assume that most readers are familiar with the term "friendlies".

and

2) Plants have an immune system (another term that may be easier to understand is "age related resistance"):

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0065229602380327

The above paper has been cited by 60 newer papers:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?newwindow=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.&biw=1035&bih=507&dpr=1.75&um=1&ie=UTF-8&lr&cites=3740560025018029204

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This one (less technical) article that has to do with mildew problems.

https://cals.arizona.edu/yavapai/anr/hort/byg/archive/plantimmunesystems.html

This is a 2007 full paper:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-8137.2007.02130.x/full

It has been cited 124 times.

My rose philosophy is maintain healthy soil most of all. There are beneficiaI insects there such as predator mites. With healthy soil and healthy plants , chemicals aren't needed. I also believe it takes about 5 years to allow the soil to get back to healthy life in the soil for healthy plants. The good fungus and good insects are part of plant growth. It's good to not let pets or children go near the chemicals. Also the chemicals have environment hazards also and should not be used within 24 hours of rain. This chemical is banned in Canada, Europe , and New York State. It is important to have lots of good healthy aerobic life in the soil to out fight the diseases and bad bugs. Eric T. Fleisher says we should focus on process not product. (Making good compost). The best mulch for roses is ground cover plants or finished yard waste compost. Always plant in open, uncrowded areas where the rose will get lots of airflow and the first morning sun.NEVER prune in the Fall.Prune off all dead, damaged and diseased canes in the Spring, just as new growth appears.Clean up and discard the old mulch underneath your roses every Spring, and replace that disease-spore ridden material with an inch of high-quality compost.NEVER use bark, wood or rubber mulch.Prune throughout the summer to keep the plants open and uncrowded.http://www.gardensalive.com/product/disease-resistant-roses

I would like to thank Dr Henry Kuska pointing out that there are friendlies.

Dan, thanks for your input. I have wondered about using landscape fabric or plastic under roses. Is this something one could do just during the first flush to break the cycle or would I have to keep it there permanently? I don't know if I have midge, but many buds look terrible this year. Would raw wood chips work or must it be completely inorganic?

My roses have terrible BS, but I haven't yet resorted to spraying. Is sulpher spray recommended? Mose of my roses are supposedly BS resistant, but we have heavy pressure here in the Ohio River Valley. Thank you.

If a new rosarian believes that her roses have BS, rust, mildew, anthracnose, mites and midge simultaneously, what she needs is a home visit from a consulting rosarian. Perhaps Dan can help arrange that or point the OP in that direction.

The following was stated: ".I have the Whole ARS behind be and a lot of EXPERTS besides me that I can get ahold of"

In the link below it is reported that 7 out of 38 Yankee District Consulting Rosarians who replied to the 2011 year end questionnaire did not spray at all.

http://arsyankee.org/Annual%20CR%20Report%202-28-2011.pdf

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If you have not purchased a copy of the Consulting Rosarian Manual (last edition 2012) and you are interested in spraying, I recommend that you purchase it.

There are many interesting sections concerning disease control. Too many to put here. I will just put this small part:

"The approach to using pesticides is changing - rose lovers interested in protecting our precious resources and being good environmental stewards are shifting from routine, preemptive use of potent pesticides, to a selective, integrated pest management approach using pesticides when needed as an aid to growing their favorite flower."

From Page VIII-1

Wow, thank you everyone! A lot of information to process.

Henry, that's fascinating, I had no idea plants have immune systems, but of course they do!

About powdery mildew, I know it's more of a spring and fall problem here but we just went through a weird cold spell in late June and I've definitely got it.

But, it is really hard to tell the difference between all of these diseases and pests, let alone remember their names! For instance, I just realized today that most of my roses have rose slug damage? I had never heard of them. But my roses all have those spots that are almost translucent while some leaves are almost skeletonized for lack of a better term. I even found a few of these little worms on the bottom of some cuttings I took, along with the red mites as well.

So Dan, Cecily, it sounds like a visit from a Consulting Rosarian is exactly what I need, that would be amazing! I'm going to go to the ARS website right now, thanks for the link!

Dan, you have interesting ideas. I missed the insult. Hopefully it was removed.

Summersrhythm,

1,000+ roses!.....must take about 5 hours to spray! Hopefully your sprayer is energized somehow.

You have 20 roses for every one of mine, currently! I used to have well over 1000 roses to spray a number of years back. Used a gas powered tank sprayer hitched to a gulf cart. It took me from 9:00AM to late afternoon every two weeks from May to October to do the spraying. It was not enjoyable, but the results were well worth it.

Today it is work enough for me to tend to just 50 roses. Time brings changes! I don't love my little rose bed (8' X 18'), any less though, actually even more.

Moses

I've had to resort to spraying each week this summer. We have rain almost every day and my normal spraying schedule wasn't cutting it. I think I am finally seeing some relief. If the spray had time to dry on the leaves before it rained, you should be ok. But try to spray next weeks.

Landscape fabric will not help. If you have a lot of blackspot, removing any leaves that have fallen on the ground and adding fresh mulch under the roses may help a bit. But once you have the spores all over the roses, nothing will stop it until the weather conditions change and you get new leaves or you spray.

A lot of valuable info here, I did not know you should alternate sprays ? I have just started using the Bayer just disease control , that is systemic . What should I alternate with pleases ? Just give me a name , preferably available locally . Thanks ! :)

Lilyfinch,

Alternating fungicides is necessary because of the fungus developing resistance. The trick is to alternate with a fungicide that is not chemically related, or it will work just about the same, just about like the fungicide you're switching from.

You have the Bayer product, with 2.9% Tebuconazole....good. You may be able to go two years before a switch is indicated. You will know when it is time to switch, believe me.

I would go to Immunox ($15.00) next. Its chemical is Myclobutan, a different class from the Bayer fungicide.

Mancozeb ($20.00) is another choice. The Zinc and Manganese, both elements, work quite differently against fungus.

Eagle ($45.00), is a newer fungicide. It moves up through a rose into new tissue as the rose grows! This is a great feature.

If you can't get these locally, vendors on Amazon sell them.

Many other fungicides are priced sky high, Whew! The above are priced within reason.

Some rose folks alternate every couple sprays. I like to wait until the spray I am using starts to work less effectively. Differing spray philosophies result in different approaches.

Alternating quickly, soon makes the fungus strains all resistant to them all, then what do you do? I like to wait until the fungus strains grow resistant, then switch and stay with that switch to the critical point. By then the previous fungicide is usually effective again, the first resistant strain has died out. But, everyone to their own notion.

Moses

Moses, It's all manual labor. 2 of my Home Depot sprayers broken, I bought 2 cheap sprayers (1 Gal, "Gardenline" brand) from Aldi for $5 each this spring, I love them, much better than the HD ones, it has very fine mist. It's a good workout every time though, have to refill it often. :-) Many of my roses are still new/small, about 1-3 years old, cutting down some spray time there. I am on vacation right now, try to catch up with garden work. It's a good thing I got the spray done yesterday, it's raining now. Combining 2 sprays in 1 is such a big help, thanks to you!! I should have more time riding this summer. Just learned how to ride a (manual )motorcycle-Honda Grom 2 weeks ago! I am a scooter rider since 2009, but Grom is really fun, it's the smallest motorcycle, 125cc, about 200lbs, top speed-58mph, 100mpg. :-)

Going to Lowes for more chicken wires, rabbits, ton of rabbits are back. Aspectek ultrasonic guard worked for a while.......

Eagle sounds good, have to check it out.

Buford, the landscape fabric question was for preventing rose midge as mentioned earlier in the thread, not BS. Sorry for the confusion. Henry, I don't believe Dan's words were meant for you. There were a couple of comments from another poster that disappeared as fast as they were written. It's good that one can edit things said in haste. Hopefully, no lasting harm done and everyone feels free to post their facts and opinions and we can make our own choices without insulting others.

Summersrhythm,

So, four wheels are too many for you! I have always maintained, "Why use four wheels when two will get you there better."

Why not just lash your Aldi's sprayer to you Grom, fill 'er up, and you're off for a 200 mile round trip. Take the back roads and nobody will bother you.

I don't know how you manage hand-pump spraying 1000+ roses! I couldn't imagine doing that from what I remember, going back those many years ago.

BTW, do your Aldi sprayers really make a mist spray like an Atomist Sprayer does, or is it an extremely fine spray?

Moses

Moses , I thank you once again for your excellent advice ! I bookmarked it so I can refer to it next year when the time comes. Truthfully I am just thinking of digging out the offenders . There are so many roses out there that don't require work to keep healthy ! My two worst are lavender lassie which I find charming but won't die without and jasmina which I am having a heck of a time keeping looking good . I have a pot ghetto with 9 roses waiting a good spot .

Thanks so much for always giving careful and well written advice , I consider you and many others like a helpful neighbor chatting over a fence shooting the breeze ! So grateful for everyone on this forum :)

Lilyfinch....as I am with you, and all the other Roses Forum members/respondents, even and especially those with whom I disagree. The disagreements cause me to review my positions to see if I am wrong....and sure enough, I'm often wrong, so begins the often painful process of reforming my stands. It's harder to do as I get older.

Moses

Lol, you're funny Moses! I only ride bikes after work, too chicken to ride to work on the highways. My bikes are my iron horses, eat less and easy to maintain. I have never had Atomist sprayer, you have expensive taste in sprayers. :-) Mine were all from Home Depot or Lowes. I have 6-7 sprayers for different things (roundup, weed killer, sulfur and soap/baking soda and soap, Liquid fence, Midge control, BS &PM control), even have 1 for spraying shampoo on my dogs ( 2 huge Komondors). They were all under $10-12 each. The $5 Aldi's sprayer I can adjust it to very fine mist that I have never seen before, but that's compared to the ones from HD and Lowes though. It wont hurt to give it a try.

Good stuff moses. I have switched from the Bayer to Honorguard and I also use a contact fungicide. I will keep the others in mind, but as you say, if you use them all, then the blackspot can get resistance to all of them. The key is also to spray as soon as the roses leaf out and then regularly. It's been hard this year because it seems to rain all the time and there are a few weeks that I was supposed to spray that I could not because it was so wet.

Of course you need to practice good safety procedures when using any of these sprays. Always read the label.

Buford, where do you buy Honorguard?

Fellow Non-organic Fungicide/Insectcide Sprayers,

When the Organic Only Agents come for us remember not to flee for sanctuary to New York State, particularly New York City. We will find no place of safe refuge there.

Flee to Pennsylvania, the land flowing with tebuconazole and ivermectin, where your sanctuary is secure. You will be welcomed with open arms, but bring money, sanctification is expensive here.

Moses

Summersrhythm,

The Atomist sprayer gives a great mist spray, but it is a design disaster. The tank falls off, its attachment clamps are archaic, and the entire sprayer is cumbersome.....but the mist...wonderful. Its price is way too high, three times as much as its parts would indicate.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to find any other reasonably priced mist sprayer so far. I will definitely get the Aldi's sprayer at my next opportunity. The Solo 'handle,' sprayer is what I now use, and it is good to fair. Holds up good.

••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

Buford,

Spraying is a challenge here too, weatherwise. I started early and was able to maintain a good schedule until about a month ago, but only the minis have any BS, and not too much.

You know, rose midge fly is epidemic here. It has been so every year for about 25 years now....except this year. I can't believe my eyes! I am spraying for midge as usual this year, and always expect collateral damage in spite of my best spraying efforts, as was the case every year in the past.

This year I have found only two midged growing tips out of about three hundred tips! I usually get about 7% midged tips even with keeping up a good spray schedule. So far this year it's two out of three hundred growing tips. That's .66% (isn't it?...check my math, please), far less than 7%. I have no idea why.

Moses

I take another approach to spraying. My brass spray wand split when water inside froze, so I not only repaired it, but lengthened it by a couple feet. A low pressure somewhat course spray is effective when the nozzle is close to the target--I only need 2-1/2 gallons to spray my 200+ roses. I feel this minimizes spray drift.

Zack,

That's a great idea. Get the spray where it's needed, I say, by any means possible, and with as little waste as possible, too. Good go!

Moses

Just made it to Lowes, got Immunox and Daconil. They don't have Mancozeb. I can just use these 2 for the rest of the season right?

I went to Walmart, HD first, and found Immunox, Daconil at Lowes for $11.98 & $13.97.

.......I think I have to return Daconil, and find Manzate. A lot of people were saying don't use Daconil on the forum. Going back to Lowes. :-)

Summersrhythm,

I would use Immunox for the rest of the growing season, to the end.

Stop spraying when the roses stop growing. Start spraying when they start growing in the spring.

Daconil is good for black spot and cercospora. Cercospora looks like BS, and affects roses like BS. A roses can have both black spot and cercospora at the same time. Daconil is not listed for powdery or downy mildew, so it will be ineffective against these two fungi.

In the fall (and spring), the mildews can show up, not usually in the summertime. In case the mildews show up this fall, Immunox will take care of them. Keep the Daconil for black spot and/or cercospora for next summer.

Start off 2018 with Immunox in case of the mildews then, and when mildew season is over in early July, switch to Daconil. Back to Immunox in September until the season's end.

In 2019 you can switch to the Bayer fungicide instead of Immunox that year, keeping Daconil for the summer, or use Mancozeb instead of Daconil when mildew season is over.

Sounds like a lot work, but you certainly have demonstrated you're not afraid of work! Really, it's not. You're cycling 4 fungicides. This schedule can go on for several years, and keep your roses disease free with good success.

It goes without saying to study the label directions intently until they are well understood, then follow them to the letter.

Moses

Thanks Moses. I can't use Bayers here, that's why I bought Immunox and Daconil today. I have some cercospora problem here plus pretty bad BS and PM, because the weather has been so wet this summer, and I didn't spray for BS and PM until it was too late. The temp here is around 80F, people were saying Daconil burnt leaves when temp around 80F......I will use Immunox for the rest of this year, I might try Honor Guard ( Honor Guard PPZ?) and Mancozeb in 2018, 2019, thanks for the idea. I think Honor Guard treats cercospora, BS and PM, correct me if I am wrong. I hope the BS and PM will be totally gone after a few treatments.

The active ingredient in Immunox is Myclobutanil

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378427416332337?via%3Dihub

The conclusion section from the full paper:

"Conclusion

Using an in vitro model of steatosis in human hepatic cells, this study shows and confirms that myclobutanil exerts a toxic effect on the liver already at values close to the NOEL, indicating a risk for agricultural workers exposed directly to the fungicide as well as for the general population exposed through the food chain. The fungicide enhances LDH and cytochrome c and reduces anti-apoptotic proteins such as the BclxL/Bak dimer and Mcl-1/Bak. Thus, myclobutanil can worsen nonalcoholic fatty liver disease in people exposed to the fungicide."

My goodness, Henry, Henry, Henry dear! Is this your bedtime? I can't sleep right now because I had a root canal 2nd treatment today, it hurts! What's your reason won't/can't sleep? :-) I won't get your blood pressure going at this hour, or any other hour, I know you're 89 this year. So what would you like to do with BS and PM?

Apparently some are now considering using propiconazole based fungicides.

In previous discussions I have used the term "Beta Tester" for those who decide to use a spray product that (I feel and try to document) is considered a questionable product as indicated by reviewed scientific studies of possible concern.

The reason for using this term is that some/many feel that the U.S. Government allows chemical products to be put on the market before sufficient safety testing is completed. Because of this behavior the term "Precautionary Principle" was developed.

"precautionary principle World English Dictionary
the precept that an action should not be taken if the consequences are uncertain and potentially dangerous"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/precautionary+principle"

---------------------------------------------------

The following link gives more detail:
http://www.sehn.org/Volume_3-1.html

In particular the following part should help clarify:

"What about "scientific uncertainty"? Why should we take action before science tells us what is harmful or what is causing harm?
Sometimes if we wait for proof it is too late. Scientific standards for demonstrating cause and effect are very high. For example, smoking was strongly suspected of causing lung cancer long before the link was demonstrated conclusively - that is, to the satisfaction of scientific standards of cause and effect. By then, many smokers had died of lung cancer. But many other people had already quit smoking because of the growing evidence that smoking was linked to lung cancer. These people were wisely exercising precaution despite some scientific uncertainty.

Often a problem - such as a cluster of cancer cases or global warming - is too large, its causes too diverse, or the effects too long term to be sorted out with scientific experiments that would prove cause and effect. It's hard to take these problems into the laboratory. Instead, we have to rely on observations, case studies or predictions based on current knowledge.

According to the precautionary principle, when substantial scientific evidence of any kind gives us good reason to believe that an activity, technology or substance may be harmful, we should act to prevent harm. If we always wait for scientific certainty, people may suffer and die, and damage to the natural world may be irreversible."

--------------------------------------------------------

The question here is whether propiconazole at this time meets the criteria of concern utilizing the Precautionary Principle?

Fortunately, a June 9, 2017 manuscript titled: "Peer review of the pesticide risk assessment of the active substance propiconazole" has appeared.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.2903/j.efsa.2017.4887/epdf

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After you download the article I recommend a "find" search of the phrase "data gap". (do not use the quotes)

Henry, I appreciate your continued input. However, every single rose in my garden has some BS, despite my best effort to buy resistant varieties. What do you suggest? I admit I didn't have the time this year to take the same care as last and the roses are showing it, but.....some still showed it last year badly. If I dug up all the bad roses I would only have New Dawn left. What do/did you do to prevent and treat BS in your own garden and what were your results? Some on the Organic Forum tout ACT (Aerated Compost Tea), but I've yet to try it it. I'd welcome an organic solution, but don't see many put forward. I think more people in BS havens would be receptive to these findings if there were an effective alternative.

vaporvac, the posts no longer have the complete date. Look from the beginning for my post that starts: "I have posted a number of times over the years that it appears to take about 5 years for a no spray approach to be effective. I had about 1000 roses in my no spray garden. There are two points to consider........"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another approach that is helpful in understanding Nature is to look at the science of biocontrol. (The biocontrol items would come under my classification as "friendlies".)

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17429140701701071?scroll=top&needAccess=true

I would never remove old mulch. "Has the world gone mad?" I think layering new mulch on top sounds lovely and so much easier.

As you remove the fungus spore infested mulch where do you put it? Possibly several square yards of it in Summersrhythm 1,000+ rose garden?

While removing the mulch, the spores are agitated, and drop off onto the soil and also become airborne, contaminating other areas....more mulch to remove. Now soil is also contaminated.

What next, Organic-droids, remove all the mulch, everywhere spores could have been blown, along with the contaminated soil beneath the mulch? Where does it go?

Oh I know, send it to my friendly neighborbood federally approved toxic waste dump, right?

Are you scientists, so self proclaimed, living on earth?

Go back to sleep, it's late.

Moses