That will probably be fine as a temporary holding area but you will want to be very, very careful about moisture collecting in the bottom if there are no drainage holes. Even if the material is evenly moist at the outset, gravity will do its work, and more moisture is continually released from the material as it breaks down. 5 gallon buckets or anything that is tall and narrow rather then wide and shallow are especially tricky for moisture management. You could drill holes in the bottom of the bucket if you're willing to sacrifice a bucket.

I don't know offhand how much worm bin material weighs, but to me it seems pretty heavy. Then again I have a medical condition which makes me weak, only in the physical sense of course :-) Safe to assume it's as heavy or nearly as heavy as wet potting mix. There is a lot of water in it.

Thanks theparsley for keeping me from trouble and the tip to keep the little guys ok. I was worried it might dry out not the other way around, I haven't put any vegetable matter in there besides the peat compost and plus the cow manure compost, but I can see what you mean about the gravity separating out water, the compressed peat I used absorbed a lot so that's why I put the dry coating of it on top, which I have no idea if it will work.

If I am to trust the seller on weight, the bag of worms he sent lost over 11% which I have to assume was moisture evaporated in transit ... he used a paper lunch bag stapled closed which was damp and a double layered home made cardboard box he taped together with two eighth or quarter inch square air holes formed around to protect it,

sent first class to the max weight according to him, initially 12.5-13 oz, but 11.6 ounces arrived and when I just asked him, he said "not to be nitpicky but ... it was probably 12.6 oz." Well I wasn't complaining and just was trying to see how much moisture got lost because I thought they were quite dry and not dead but out of it, and the paper bag was damp and soft like a lot evaporated. And it was 11.6 oz. but he never answered me back after that LOL... He sent "worm habitat" that supposedly contains many worm babies and a relatively small selection of smaller "breeders" with their bands (less than 50). I'm wondering if the babies I couldn't really see as I prepped everything in a hurry since I was afraid things were hot and drying out, if they were ok or are more sensitive to drying out than the adults.

Are the recently born worms able to move up in the mix if it gets to wet on the bottom or can they drown if just a little liquid develops on the bottom fraction of an inch? Do you have a special name for the baby wormies like wormlets or wisps or hatchlings or something? Babies is ok but I'm just wondering if there is something more official sounding!

The weight could scary then, because this post says well moistened soil can be 120 pounds per cubic foot according to the following post.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1660795/help-needed-to-calculate-soil-weight-in-boxes

That would make a 2'x3'x5" tray 2.5 cubic feet = 300 pounds plus the weight of the moist wood, and I want to stack three of these eventually! (never could handle that). Even 2x2 would be 180 pounds!

My biggest tomato pot is 20 gallons (2.5 to 3 cu ft) but it is no where
near as moist. I can lift and it feels like maybe 60 pounds
total (18 pounds per CF), but the mix is a very light one that doesn't absorb much.

Water is 60 pounds or so a cubic foot and I'm thinking this could get to be 40 pounds per cubic foot then (10% pores and 75% water... 60x0.9x0.75=40 lbs) so maybe I should go with that. In the daylight I better weigh ... bring the scale and potting mix out. I think 50 pounds per tray is as much as I could ever want because lifting two trays eventually stacked would be over 100 pounds especially when the wood gets really moist. That would mean the 2x3 foot would weigh 50 pounds only if the mix is under 20 lbs/cf which seems too light at this point to hope for. That might be if you look at the "bulk density of compacted and moist yard waste and vegetation" here (400-500 lbs/cy = 16.7 lbs/cf): http://seafood.oregonstate.edu/.pdf%20Links/Basic-Principles-of-Composting-LSU.pdf , but I still feel a little clueless here :-) Thanks for the guidance and so sorry to hear that you have difficulty with the heavier weights.

This, for comparison, http://www.aqua-calc.com/calculate/volume-to-weight , says peat weighs:

wet peat 70 lbs/cf

moist peat 50 lbs/cf

dry peat 25 lbs/cf

and cattle manure seems to be at about 50 lbs/cf

So I hope it is ok and I'm not being optimistic at the expense of my back.

Thanks again so much for helping me!

Cheers

PC

PS just weighed the temp worm bucket and I have roughly a gallon and it's net weight of contents only is 4.8 lbs. That's 36 pounds/cf, but I don't know if it is way too wet or not. No worms came through the paper bag scraps on the top but I don't know if they could make it through. When it is lighter I'll disturb them by taking a look inside.

I really like the idea of calling baby worms "wisps." But they don't have a specific name as far as I know - maybe "hatchlings" when they are brand new. Worms don't go through developmental stages like insects and other creatures that take on new forms as they grow - a baby worm is pretty much just a tiny version of a grown-up, with the exception of the clitellum, which only forms when the worm is mature.

The problem with moisture accumulating in the bottom isn't that the worms will drown - worms don't drown right away in water, since they don't have lungs. They breathe through their skins. If there is oxygen in the water they can live in it for a little while. But bin material that is too wet excludes oxygen from circulating, thus causing anerobic decomposition to take over from aerobic. This produces bad smells caused by gases that are toxic to worms. It's the same thing you see (smell) happening if a container sits with stagnant water and plant matter in it. You can tell if it's happening by the sniff test.

I store my finished castings in 5gal buckets and the weight is usually between 25-30 lbs when full. There are some holes in the buckets and I dont put tight fitting lids on just a piece of cardboard or similar item to separate any stacked buckets and there might be a few worms that make it into these buckets and the worms are still alive when it comes time to use the finished compost. Dont know if this helps any, just saying.

Thank you theparsley and Steve!

Opinions on which would be better for the worms for what is shaking out to be a 40-65 pound tray, considering I may have to lift 2 or possibly three of them stacked (but the top one likely will be fresh & not filled as they are rotated):

1) 2'x2'x5.5" -or-

2) 2'x3'x3.5"

It helps Steve because it's in the neighborhood of 37.5 - 45 lb/cf which is on the heavier side of my thoughts, Double in fact. I would have preferred the wider wood (taller tray) for a number of reasons including having already bought the wood. A 2'x2'x5" is smaller than the 2'x3' that I hoped for, but the 2'x2'x5" would be around 65 lbs at that weight, and a 2'x2.5'x5" 25% heavier than that. Maybe a more shallow tray is manageable but is it good for the worms? These ANCs are supposed to grow quite large, supposedly up to a foot long when given a chance.

Theparsley, I appreciate your putting this into perspective. Everything you say makes perfect sense to me and I am going to see if I can avoid the anaerobic environment somehow taking into consideration your kind summary of the key factors to watch out. Wisps, for me, it is then!

Thanks

PC

Among others, I have 3 of the same kind and size of pails as worm bins going successfully for over 3 yrs. now. I started with one and splitting every year or so. I did NOT drill any hole in the buckets. Used appr. 3 layers of egg cartons at the bottom to absorb future liquid excess and (although limited) for extra air. Got triple layer of corrugated cardboard from a dept. store and use that to line the sides. I cut the CB in sections of ca. 3 or 4 " width so it's easy (and minimal disturbance to the in) to pull them out once the bottom part is wet, rip them to shreds for bedding, push the remaining dry part deeper down the side. Add additional layer when needed. Many worms will be found between the ripples of cardboard, mostly adults. So I'm thinking, this is also a good way to remove the worms from the most bottom part of the bin so they won't get trapped down there. They didn't seem to starve there because they're real fat. Possibly because it's moist between the sheets. I do need to watch the feeding method so as not to add too much watery feed. I also use rabbit pellets (food, not droppings) in between especially when noticing the bin got too wet. IMO it is also good practice to spritz fresh rain water on the top every now and then. And don't forget the sprinkle of powdered egg shells.

I removed/cut out most of the lid to these pails leaving about an inch of the edge where I glued weed cloth. Hope this will give you some add. ideas.

Hi Otis,

I was wrestling with lining the wood with plastic but
thought that would defeat the purpose at least on the sides. I think
the way you use cardboard might be the way to go for me in the trays
(not to mention the temporary holding bucket, and good use of cardboard
I'm assuming, egg cartons). Do you mean the worms use the cardboard to
shimmy up through the corrugated channels and airspaces to get out of
the bottom instead of being compacted and stuck? I can't relate to
that since it is a bridge that's still far off but hopefully I will do
ok. Do you think a 3.5 inch tray stack would be better than a 5.5 inch
high per tray stack for the same reason, or are the depths much much
more in your case that are the potential challenge?

Check on the
egg shells. I've suddenly become a hoarder of banana peels and the like
in baggies in the freezer along with a pile of eggshells to crush when
the time comes. Thanks again for your comments!

Here is an update of what happened this morning when I checked. The top paper bag had somewhat dried though still moist. The worms seemed more alive and were not on the bottom or top of the soil mix. The big ones I could see were mainly in the center middle I think. When I dug to the bottom and parted the soil the bucket had no water puddling. However, quickly, it began to drain into the soilless probe hole and collect in the bucket bottom only over open plastic. Not that much I think a quarter inch, and putting back the soil sucked it up again into the soil capacity. I hope the moisture/water content is ok. The low temp the bucket got to last night was 78 F. So it seems to be oscillating between 75 and 88. Outside in the shade hits a bit over 90. Here is what I saw:

Cheers

PC

There are pros and cons of using large pieces of corr. CB in a worm bin. One of the cons that I agree with, it gives fungus gnats a favourite breeding ground. My bins are all outside now and whenever I find colonies of fungus gnat in the corr. channels along the top and side edges (dry parts), it gives me great pleasure and satisfaction to crush those clumps. As for the worms they are found in the wet/damp corrugated channels further down.

Whenever I have worm food that contains more liquid than ideal, I "serve" it in a 4 egg portion egg carton using, 3 layers. After a week or so there'll be worms between the egg carton layers in the cups, snuggling together what looks like very comfortable and they are so pink and clean. Quite cute actually, if you can call worms "cute". Whenever I use damp burlap layers as top covers, they'll be found between the layers too. I believe they need those layers of things to help shed/rub off their cocoons, aside from the fact that more surfaces means more MO.

""Do you think a 3.5 inch tray stack would be better than a 5.5 inch high per tray stack."" I would go for 5.5". I used to have a Worm Factory and I believe the trays are about that deep. With time, I find that system is too small/shallow for me. I also like to pile lots of shredded newspaper over the top and the WF will not allow that so all my bins are home made. My largest is a 2ft x 4ft x 3ft deep VB (VermBin)

Otis, thanks for all these valuable pointers on the use of egg cartons and cardboard which will come in handy. It sounds like you'd recommend the 2'x2' deeper 5.5" trays in my case and for you that isn't really enough. Bummer, I'm thinking of the big ANCs getting cramped, but everything will probably work out fine. I understand you start with a lot of lightweight stuff in there and can use the extra space. But in stacking trays, eventually it all settles and fills up ... eventually in a stacked tray system like I want the weight will catch up to me if I understand which I may not completely.

Maybe I'll just go with 2'x2.5'x5.5" trays. My math tells me a full tray at what seems at this point to be around 35 lb/cf is going to weigh 80 pounds plus the weight of the damp wood frame which is going to be at least another 20 pounds. I don't know if I can handle that because I'd have to lift the top two trays right, when the middle one is basically at full weight and the top one maybe half. That's 160 pounds, and I can forget adding a fourth tray which I thought might have been better. The worms may be in their temporary bucket longer as this worm poop has become more challenging than I thought when I stepped into it! But my tomatoes will like it and I really can't fork out $1/pound That's $80 value made per large tray above, although I am thinking the bagged vermicompost commercially sold is sometimes partially dried, not sure about that, but I found some online sources that call a cubic foot 27 pounds. (BTW that would be the minimum weight of a cubic foot then). Another called it 37 pounds so, *sigh* go figure :-|

Cheers

PC

I've never bought vermicompost, but I imagine bagged vermicompost is somewhat more dry than my homemade VC ever gets, or it would be uneconomical to ship.

I'm not following all of these design details, but why are you figuring you'll have to lift more than one tray at a time? I have five trays going on my Worm Factory and I never lift more than one at a time, or need to. When I change out the bottom tray for the top one, I unstack and restack everything one at a time.

"why are you figuring you'll have to lift more than one tray at a time?"

...because my understanding of the process is theoretical only and most likely flawed on several areas someone who actually has an established colony would grin at! The assumption of more than one tray is that once the worms process the bottom-most tray, they begin migrating to the next one above, which can take time, until everyone is hatched and the vast majority of wisps make it up there. So my assumptions, right or wrong, are that at any one point, two trays are in play. and separating them might harm the structure or occupants of the community. In your experience is there no problem separating trays by lifting wone at a time, and do the worms not suffer consequences much? I hope so. I'm thinking, an ANC that is 8" long is going to be threaded through the mesh in two trays. Under this assumption maybe if I had four trays only the two active ones would need be lifted together.

Taking a step back, maybe separating them is actually good for them- I don't know- as it could aerate some and the worms might not be subject to damage and just squirm away into the easiest tray upon separation. But why would anyone want four trays instead of three, if you run them in say, 60 day cycles? Seems to me they would just be letting the vermicompost on the first floor just sit there and age by the time the food source is principally the third floor? Is there some other benefit to more than three floors, why would the commercial product Worm Factory 360 have four trays if only three are needed?

I agree with your sentiment "bagged vermicompost is somewhat more dry than my homemade VC ever gets" and for future reference I'm thinking the actual range is 30 - 50 lbs/cf depending on how much it is dried out by the producer. As much as I worry about the weight, this seems to me the reason for making than buying. I cannot imagine a partially drier product having nearly the helpful biological activity as one sitting around in a poop silo dehydrating for packaging. Again an assumption that needs verification on my part not backed by any experience, only the heartfelt concern to have the perfect tomato fertilizer. What I like is I control the inputs and can estimate the resulting organic & natural NPK ratios, which gives me an amazing feeling to do. Can you feed some feathers to worms or is that considered too 'animal'?

Thanks theparsley, I owe this to you by the way as it was you posting in that other forum that made me take the worm, hook, line and sinker :-)

Cheers

PC

PC: your posts are very interesting. How far into building your 2'x2'x?? bin are you? Just like theparsley & others, I used to stack and unstack my stackable system. I used RM bins to build my system, 4 plus 1 to catch leachate and the rotation worked out to be compost harvest once/month once the routine was established. I tried to find out from your previous posts how you're going to do the bottom, couldn't find it. The bottom of WF is moulded plastic so it is not as sharp as window screen or similar. Would be good if you could get the thicker gauge for the screen. And go slowly when lifting your tray to give worms time to wiggle away (pull their feet up so to say)

If weight is a concern, I guess you can still build less than 5" high and my comment about preferring a deeper bin can still be remedied by other means/tricks. For the working tray, which will be the top tray, you could always use strong cardboard or thin plywood to extend the high/depth to accommodate more bedding/food. Once processed, this will compress and once it reached the 3" or whatever height your bin is, move the unprocessed material and "fake" sides to the new top tray which by now will be the working tray. In time, you will find out, with the amount of worms you have and your feeding routine, how much time you need to get finished VC (VermiCompost). It took my RM system 4 months and that is why I have 4 bins so I harvest once a month. This answers your question why Worm Factory offers 6 trays. It will be different with others' need and want for how often to harvest. And don't forget: we cannot rush nature. We can increase the amount of compost/castings by increasing amount of worms. But then again don't forget: when too dense, worms will self regulate their population increase. So I'd advise to go slow until you know the worms routine. We are the ones keeping the worms in captivity, so IMO we have to adjust to their need. NEVER let the bins dry out. In your case there is no fear of drowning, one less thing to worry.

Only the bottom tray is the "inactive" one. Actually not really inactive because nature is still working. Just inactivity from my part: I do not feed that bin and let the VC age, so to speak. The other 3 bins above it are in different stages with the top one filled with worms and unprocessed material from what is now the bottom bin. The population of these 3 bins are appr. the same, around 1.5-2lbs.

On a side note: I used the lid between each bin because I didn't want the contents too compressed by the weight above each. When drilling the RMs, top and bottom were drilled at the same time so the holes lined up when bins are stacked. (marking which corner of one lid matched to which bottom corner of bin). I used upturned 1 gal. nursery pots in each corner of the leachate bin. The bottom bin sat on these, making it easy to lift.

I think you are picturing the worms as more fragile than they are. They won't get ripped apart when you lift the trays. They are tough little muscular guys. (Guy/girls, I guess.)

When they are in a tray system with mesh or a grate separating the trays, they really like to hang out halfway through the mesh. When you lift a tray, there will usually be a ton of worms dangling down. This doesn't hurt them, but it makes it awkward trying to set the tray down on a flat surface in case some of them might be smooshed.

If you were to stand there holding the tray up in midair long enough, they would eventually reel themselves in because they don't like flapping in the air and light, but I certainly can't hold up a heavy worm tray that long and I don't think most people would want to. I finally started making a pile of not-yet-used shredded bedding paper and setting the initial tray down on that, then stacking the others on top in reverse order. The worms won't purposely climb down into the paper if it is dry, but it will cushion any that are dangling and catch any that might fall off. After putting everything back, that bedding paper can go right into the now-empty now-on-top tray.

The reason for having more trays is simply to get the capacity of the system up to where you need it to be so that the average amount you feed it gets fully processed in the bottom tray by the time you have the top-most tray filled to capacity. The Worm Factory comes with three trays but they are only 16" x 16" and I found that adding one additional tray seems to make the whole thing the right capacity for me. Even though I am a one-person household I generate a lot of veggie scraps and coffee grounds.

Any claims that all the worms will move out of the "finished" tray must be taken as optimistic. They never all do. Parsley's Law (which I just made up) states that there will always be some worms throughout the explorable limits of the system, meaning all the areas they can get into that are dark and moist enough for them to be comfy. Most will be around the food, but some will always be wandering.

Admittedly I've not read every posting and every word in this thread... its pretty wordy but I did make it through the first 4 postings before switching into scanning mode. I'd like to add an opinion though if I might... with such a small quantity of worms I believe you'd be better served just getting in some practical hands-on experience in keeping them alive in a more manageable and appropriately sized container first before stressing out over building them a palatial palace to sprawl out in as it will take them more than a year or two to do. I started with 8 pounds of worms and it took about a year and a half to fill six 30-gallon bins (but only about 20-24 gallons of actual worm bedding)... you do the math and you'll begin to understand there is no rush... better you first learn about raising the little buggers, there's enough of a learning curve to that. Good luck and welcome to the hobby of worm ranching.

I'm processing all the info and deeply appreciate the "wordy" posts I've had as replies, and I'm working on another of my own for otis and theparsley and sorry for that delay as I am very attentive to what they've said and about the past info I will also answer today in addition to this post.

Regarding the proposed wait and see approach I can easily answer. I've got them in a temporary bucket now an am learning a bit and they are doing well. Here are the pics I was going to post for those helping me out of yesterday morning, It has cooled a bit, I opened the bucket and found rather than have more water it had less and I had to add some. I figure it is because they are still not on a vegetable scrap diet and are eating the rich mixture of cow manure compost and premium Canadian peat moss which probably will get the population moving. No worms penetrated the paper bag pieces on top, and they seemed healthy inside, a couple breeding sized worms were right under the bag surface lazing about.

As for the speed of development, my assumptions as a novice "worm farmer" are: these are ANCs which are known to develop quickly and according to the seller I have habitat filled with wisps besides the breeding worms which are about 50, so the wisps will come to maturity continuously over this month and perhaps I will end up with 200 worms in a month as a stab at a guess. The life cycle of ANCs is more promiscuous as they can reach sexual maturity in 35 days from hatching at my temperatures (vs 60 days for RW) and do so in research papers when fed cow manure compose which bulks them up fast, and put out a cocoon every 1.5 days or so. I fully expect to have a teaming colony in 3 months with TLC and temps mostly averaging 80 inside the bucket and worm tray stack as soon as the permit is approved... and it would be nice to have them weaned into the first level of their new home. Worms in open environments are probably like most animals in my assumption: they expand more rapidly when they have more space and a more aerobic, in my case cooler environment. The large mass of the big bin helps as a heat sink like the Earth does naturally, to moderate the highs of over 90 here. Those are my assumptions; again, no experience to back it up, just a desire to maximize the mass since I couldn't afford a pound of mature ANCs or even find someone selling them easily, for that matter! If things don't meet my expectation, I will add 250 mature red wigglers from someone locally who wants $10 and have a mixed bin.

Also because theparsley and Otis are helping me so much with my doubts I want to keep the subject matter flowing and incorporate their suggestions while I have their attention :-)

Cheers

PC

PC: I hope you didn't buy Peat Moss just for your worms.

After reading monomer's comment, I must admit I can't remember part's that didn't tease my interest or urge me to comment. So you've got 50 breeder ANCs. Just for comparison, I seeded my 3 gal. no hole buckets with 50 mature (very visible clitillum) EFs. I used spent wheat grass mat on top the egg carton layers. Got the spent wheat grass mats from a juice place. The staff is glad whenever I p/u their buckets and spent mats & pulp. These mats are perfect homes for worms and to make sure there'll be only 50 worms, no babies or cocoons. I sort of keep an eye/statistic on the pop. increase of my various 3 gal. bins. In about 8 months (started after freezing period since they're outside) the average pop. will be around 0.5 lb. (naked worm weight). However, they will not go beyond 0.7 lbs. unless of course when moved to a larger bin.

Finished VC is kept in 3 gal. buckets (yes, I've lots of 3 gal. buckets) and it's weight is around 17lbs. of crumbly, damp VC.

PC, I think it's safe to add a small handful of veggie scraps in a corner and see how they take to it. Not scattered, just in a pile. If you want to be extra careful, use a section of egg carton as container. If you have some leaf veggie at hand, give them like 2 wet leaves laid on top (underneath the paper). Whenever I did that, they will go between the leaves. I wonder if it is because photosynthesis is still at work. I'm no biologist and left school a long time ago. Any comment on this, PC, anybody?

During this "breeding" period, I sprinkle Worm Chow and Rabbit food between feedings. I cannot say this has a definite positive impact. It's what I am hoping for. However, too much of this will increase pot worms. So, I have enough powdered egg shells handy. I ruined 2 blenders in the past and now I use a manual grain grinder I got from amazon for $35.

Hmm, I'm not a biologist either, despite having bordered on it in many of my roles...but I'm pretty sure photosynthesis stops when there's no light on the leaf.

I can think of two reasons why worms might like to snuggle up between leaves: they like to soak in whatever moisture gathers there, and they might be browsing on microorganisms growing on the leaf surface. Maybe also, like cats, they just like cozy spaces.

Thanks otis for the additional valuable tips, I still have my half written reply to the two posts about two days ago I want to address, but this is lighter.

"Finished VC is kept in 3 gal. buckets (yes, I've lots of 3 gal. buckets) and it's weight is around 17lbs. of crumbly, damp VC."

Perfect, 43 lb/cf in the 30-50 range. I guess I'll up the number to at least 40 lb/cf for planning and finally be happy with that number.

"2 wet leaves laid on top (underneath the paper). Whenever I did that,
they will go between the leaves. I wonder if it is because
photosynthesis is still at work"

Not photosynthesis as it is dark in there and "photo" in photosynthesis requires light. But the leaves are still somewhat living tissue in some sense and may give off a little residual oxygen from their respiration which the worms may absorb, which may be more oxygen rich than the rest of the bin, like the cardboard flutes and theparsley's worms that enjoyed congregating between the trays of the worm bin?

"I sort of keep an eye/statistic on the pop. increase of my various 3 gal. bins."

Here is my working stab at this fitted to your data in my imagination, starting with similar worm mass, given the faster maturation of the ANCs, and that you did not start with any wisps and I have many. That restricts your growth to only the weight the original worms put on in the first month, which is likely not much in the overall scheme. Assumptions of this shot in the dark are that both masses reach the same plateau which is not necessarily true at all but good for a start.

Cheers

PC

Right on, monomer. Even though I started each of my 3 gal. bin as similar as I can each time, it is noticeable after a few weeks that not all developed the same way. I usually start 4 bins at the same time. The kitchen scraps I use are pre-rotted. Used to freeze them but the family complained how difficult it was to find human food in the freezer. Worms didn't complain.

Pre-rotting allows me to remove liquid from the feed and IMO reducing the amount of gases produced in the rotting process to benefit the bin.

As mom always said, "Chew slower and you'll enjoy the experience."

"Don't count your tomatoes before they're picked!" comes to mind as well. Being accused of optimism isn't the worst thing in life though. I think it is a higher risk strategy and yours is experienced advice. I personally don't mind failure or setback and not meeting an optimistic prediction (story of a few things in life).

I am one who derives most of the pleasure with tinkering and tools - the right, nicely crafted tools for the job. The sunk cost if anything will keep me motivated. I'm not sure if a bucket or tote will have the same effect, nor that the environment I could created as I learned would be the best either. The materials for my whole setup were around $25 plus worms and the material is sitting around already purchased and just taking up space in the garage. If I don't use it, they stay in the bucket as I don't want to buy a tote as my heart is set on wood. Faced with the two options of a 4 gallon bucket or getting the wood out of my way in the garage (which is like money burning a hold in a child's pocket in a candy store), I don't see why I should deal with plastic at all.

But you are right. After careful consideration, which was taking into consideration your prior post along these lines, good advice I should stress, I will build only two trays, one of each height, and though I'll work on them one at a time in sequence would you think that would be the best way to get hands on experience in what I'm trying to do?

One issue here which I need to emphasize which you may have skimmed over. Temperatures will soon enough routinely go over 90 F and even the garage gets hot. Do you really think I can be trusted to maintain a small bucket with proper humidity and pH and no escape for the worms if I mess up? If so monomer, you have more confidence in me than I do. Or are do you think the additional work is worth it with an interim smaller setup getting to a functioning worm community on a smaller scale is ok? I don't want two bins here, one is already enough, so the training wheels would eventually be tossed and the worms would have to be moved if I had a lucky first time success.

I am still unclear what argument there is for adding an extra modest bin stage to get my ecosystem going, while the materials I bought sit around, is there? I worry about having the mass to level temperature through these hot days, and it appears that at these temps the ANCs really are favored (call it 84F) The cost of anything more than a bucket will be more time and the same money than a tray in the modular tray set up, unless I'm missing something. If I fail, I just dump everything, wipe the dust off my trousers, get up, clean it all up and do it again. I want to get friendly with my wormies (the "staff" lol). Note to otis: I did not buy peat for this especially, I use peat in gardening and have plenty of the good stuff on hand, and it was only for the intended temporary quarters after the mailbox. There is about 2 quarts of peat in there. I have over 50 gallons of it in the garage taking up space :-)

Cheers

PC

If you already have mid 80F now, I can't imagine how high it will be in summer.

Tricks I used when we got over 90F is to bury frozen pop bottles filled with water (wrapped in newspaper so worms won't get stuck to the bottle and die; also this way bottles will stay clean to go back into the freezer). Hence my need for a bin with larger volume capability. I also have a small fan (about 5" blade) I place to blow over the top of the bin. Put up cardboard "walls" on 3 sides to concentrate the fan to the bin w/o having shredded paper flying all over the place. As long as there's air movement over the top, it worked. Make sure the shredded newspaper is damp to pull moisture up to evaporate. You could use an old t-shirt or any other sheet if you like, or burlap is good.

My garage is the hottest place on my property. Do you have AC in the house?

PC... all I'm saying is don't stress out about providing a "proper" home for them just yet... you can take all summer long for that project, there's going to be no rush trust me. 50 worms will do just fine in a 5 gal bucket and in fact that will make it easier to care for them. If you've read some of my postings on the forum you'll see that I'm not that far ahead of you experience-wise. I began my journey a little more than a year and a half ago, so the lessons of starting a new bin for the first time are still fresh in my memory banks. I remember the excitement and anticipation and all the rest that goes along with at the advent of a new hobby.

I've had my Africans for about a year now. It's true I live in Michigan and have only had one summer with the Africans but from what I've seen they don't mind the heat... it just amps them up. I do know from other things I've done with my worms (read past threads) the Reds and Euros pretty much do well from 45-75F and then they begin to actively avoid the higher temps... definitely 85F is the beginning of major stress for them. The Africans I would guess should be able to take 90F though I've not ever taken mine to that level. If you live in a place where you have access to shady ground then this is going to be an example of where a 5 gallon bucket worm bin might come in handy... simply dig a hole and put the bucket into it and cover the hole with a big bowl of water (something like a $5 kiddy wading pool). There's no cheaper insulator than Mother Earth. Uh, remember to put a screen over the top of the bucket so the worms don't take a stroll.

Reading an earlier posting of yours, I'd like to suggest you think hard before deciding to mix Reds with Africans... once you get them together it will be virtually impossible to separate them later if you change your mind, you'll have to hand pick out whatever you can and then start a whole new bin again from scratch for each. I have my Euros and Reds mixed, because their temperature ranges are similar and they do complement each other as the reds pretty much stay near the surface while the Euros like to venture much deeper into the bin. Since my bins are rather deep (14-18") this suits them... so as I said those two work well combined for a deep bin as their feeding habits complement each other. I've noticed over time though that the Reds do seem to out-populate the Euros, so that is something I may have to deal with sometime down the road, maybe... so far I've been feeding the "extras" to my koi as live natural food... sort of a win-win-lose situation (I think you can figure out who the losers end up being in the deal). I don't see any such advantage to mixing the Africans with either of the others, especially in light of their voracious appetites and differing temperature ranges (the Africans basically crash not too far below 60F... they don't die they just shut-down and sulk for the winter).