Jeri, Thanks for the feedback; I was hoping you'd write in. You must have posted your first message right when I began to write mine, and so I missed it. As to growing conditions, we have more winter chill and perhaps more summer heat than you, fog not too often during the growing season, heavy soil and perhaps not as alkaline as what you describe. It's significant that rust is practically unknown here, and blackspot isn't a major problem (though I don't like it when it shows up). Actually, when I'm not worrying about drought, landslides, (earthquakes,) and the economic policies of the Italian government, I'm inclined to think that we have a perfect environment for growing roses. (I'm beginning to think this country needs a revolution, AND all its politicians struck down by lightning from heaven: it seems the only way to get rid of them.) 'Gloire des Rosomanes' is probably available in Europe, but I don't believe is common in Italy: I don't remember ever seeing it offered for sale in this country, and no one I know has it. You bet I would like to have it. I seem to recall reading that it's confused in commerce with 'Nur Mahal', in Europe I believe. Taoseeker, Aha! Several years ago I too ordered 'Comte de Chambord', 'Mme. Boll', and 'Mme. Knorr' (from Schultheis in Germany) and ended up with what looked like three identical roses...a wonderful one, to be sure. Like you I'm wondering if there's a unique 'Mme. Knorr' in commerce. I have a fourth plant arrived from who knows where, that looks like these three, but I need to re-compare them all carefully to see whether there are differences. Thanks for reminding me of the dark Hybrid Perpetuals, a group I have no personal experience with, but consider worth looking into. I don't think 'Fantin-Latour' has much Centifolia about it either; I think it falls into the category of what Vintage calls Hybrid Bourbons. It's a wonderful rose, fragrant, vigorous, and healthy, and a pleasure just to handle. The Centifolias and Mosses generally do well for me, but I have easy conditions. With leggy plants sometimes I do have to prune harder: 'La Noblesse' is a good example, and I think I'll have to cut back 'Shailer's White Moss' more than I have in the past. This last rose, so beautiful, is showing bits of pink on a lot of its flowers this year. Suzy, after losing two purchased grafted plants of 'Hebe's Lip' (herbicide and mowing), I got cuttings in a swap and now have three plants of it growing around the property. They're young but growing fine and I'm looking forward to seeing them in their maturity. 'Coupe d'Hebe' is duly noted. Jaxondel, Okay, 'Marquis de Balbiano'; I'll keep it in mind. This is a great discussion. Melissa

I thin out canes that are crossing first or canes which are damaged and finally the thinner canes. I try to have the total down to ten to twelve and thin out the center canes if possible. Currently Monsieur Boncenne has 18 canes at the end of the growth season. These include a few new canes which may be used to replace older canes next spring after accounting for winter storm damage. An interesting thing I have observed with hp's is to not deadhead like you would with ht's. At most I snap off spent blooms and do not cut back the cane to any point like I would for a ht. I have found that the bloom continues for a longer period this way. I have pictures on my Facebook page of Monsieur Boncenne blooming into September after starting in early June. It never stopped the entire time. Lance

Perle's scent is very light. Her apricot blooms fade more quickly in sun, but they are charming either way. Perle is quite thorny and grows into a substantial bush. In its shadier location, my Perle can easily top 6 feet even when pruned regularly. Her buds are like tiny high centered Hybrid Tea buds. She is very healthy. Like Marie, Perle blooms late spring through fall. Something else to note about Marie Pavie: she's thornless. Carol

Jin, Of my DAs that have bloomed: I can smell Abraham Darby (moderately strong fruity), Heritage (moderately sweet), James Galway (lightly sweet), Gertrude Jeckyll (moderate old rose, definitely not strong) and Tess (faint old rose). Except for Abraham, none of the scents are as strong as what the catalog suggests. Here I am screwed. Abraham was my first DA, I got him 20 years ago, and I thought they would all be as highly fragranced as him! Nope! My other roses that smell are Alice Hamilton (light fruit), Maggie (damask), Louis Phillipe (cherry candy), Granny Grimmets (damask), Barbara's Pasture Rose (damask), Baretta St. Bourbon (musk but is supposed to have damask scent), Solfaterre (fruity tea), Lafter (fruit), Blush Noisette (musk), Cecile Brunner (mild apple), Marie Pavie (light fruity musk. wafts), Clothilde Soupert Cl., Devoniensis, Mel's Heritage (apple), La Reine (damask, my favorite smell!), and Mme. Antione Rebe. Belinda's Dream as a faint smell sometimes, but not always. A bunch the ones that are supposed to have scent don't. Maybe in the Fall? I am not sure. It probably has something to do with growing conditions and the weather, maybe even the maturity of the plant. It's difficult for me to describe the tea scent, but when it is there, it is lovely. Not swooningly lovely, but lovely nonetheless. Not all of my teas have it, and even some days the same bush will have it one day and not the next.