Help me choose Bourbons and Hybrid Perpetuals

11 years ago

I'm making up an order to a nursery with a large rose selection and would like feedback on roses belonging to these two classes. To confess the truth at once, I'm not a fan of the Bourbons and the HPs. They seem too prone to fungal diseases, the Hybrid Perpetuals have a reputation for being heavy feeders, and the Bourbons to my eyes lack the charm of the once-blooming old roses and are not much more floriferous, given that my roses don't get much summer water and so don't rebloom that much. Still, I would like to experiment--perhaps I'll modify my opinions--and would like recommendations. Tell me your favorites. Help me fall in love. I already have the following Bourbons: 'Louise Odier', 'Zephirine Drouhin', 'Honorine de Brabant', 'Mme. Pierre Oger', 'Bourbon Queen', 'Blairii No. 2', 'Mme. Francois Pittet', 'Variegata di Bologna', 'Souv. de la Malmaison', and 'Souv. de St. Anne's'. SDLM and its offspring I do like, in large part for their scent; and 'Louise Odier' is a fine old warhorse. Several of the others are young plants not yet arrived at maturity. 'Variegata di Bologna' looks like it may put on a show in a few years.

I have a few Hybrid Perpetuals that arrived in the garden without names, some of them roses traditionally grown for making syrup. Varieties that came with names include 'Reine des Violettes', 'Enfant de France', 'Reynolds Hole', and 'Marchese Boccella'/'Jacques Cartier'. I don't know whether 'Mme. Boll'/'Comte de Chambord' is considered a Hybrid Perpetual, but it's there too. Now that is a very fine rose.

We all know that garden conditions have a big say in how a rose does. My garden has dry hot summers, fresher at night, and cool wet winters with abundant chill hours; the ground is heavy clay, I would say close to neutral or slightly alkaline. Many of my roses get some summer mildew, but it doesn't seem to do them any harm; blackspot comes mostly at the end of the growing season, and rust is almost unknown. Almost all plants in the big garden are in full sun and get a lot of wind as well. These two classes of old roses have impressed me with their toughness if not always with their health and beauty. I've been finding out that they need a good deal of pruning, and the plants have improved as I've cut out old canes.

A last question: do Hybrid Perpetuals tend to be susceptible to chlorosis? Among almost all my roses the HPs seem to have the palest leaves and to be puny where nearby roses are more thriving.

Thanks for your feedback!

Melissa

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spiderlily7

11 years ago

Perhaps our minimal winter chill here in south Louisiana affects the performance of my Bourbons, but they're among my favorites and I continue to collect them. Balling and disease issues have been minimal. I grow my roses in raised beds created by sheet composting on top of acidic clay hardpan and if we've gone a couple of weeks without rain during the blast furnace months, I'll give them some water via overhead sprinklers.

You already have some of my favorites and I also recommend Mme. Isaac Pereire for the incredible fragrance, Mme. Cornelissen for its gorgeous flat, dahlia-like warm cream blooms, and Kathleen Harrop, Coquette des Blanches and, Kronprincezzin Victoria for dependably abundant bloom cycles.

In addition, the Bourbon found in Louisiana and known as "Maggie" (identified by some as Mme. Eugene E. Marlitt) is an outstanding performer in our heat and humidity. Bloomed its head off during weeks of 100-plus temps last summer.

I'm just starting to feel my way into the HPs since I don't spray, but Souv. du Dr. Jamain has given absolutely superb and long-lasting blooms, though sparingly. I have it in a place protected from afternoon sun.

Comments (23)

taoseeker
11 years ago
In a warmer climate I'm sure Boule de Neige would live longer than here.Winter is really hard on this bouron, a small rose comparably. You have quite a lot of bourbons, I have Great Western which is a once bloomer. It is commonly grow here and we take suckers to make new plants.

I grow a few HPs that have become favorites; Charles Lefebvre, upright and healthy, dark red roses; Archiduchesse Elizabeth D'Autriche lots of large flowers about one meter tall plant; and the "correct" version of Souvenir d'Alphonse LavallÃ¯Â¿Â½e (which is not the Erinnerung an Brod version); and Souvenir de Madame de Corval (they say it is wrongly named, but the plant has very nicely shaped fragrant flowers). I also like Gloire de Dijon a lot, not a true bourbon, but it is suppose to be a child of Souvenir de la Malmaison. John Hopper has a great first flush, and a few flowers in autumn, fragrant.

Some HP are a bit stiff and upright which I don't mind too much, compared to Gallicas and Centifolias it can be a bit of a change though. Some of the HPs have the best rose fragrance. If you have a shady spot Souvenir du docteur Jamain can be good.
barbarag_happy
11 years ago
Not my favorites either-- in fact I'd stop with the ones you have! These classes have been surpassed in everything except fragrance. Might be more worthwhile to evaluate your current specimens and if any of them are wimpy, order new and see if you can get a better one.
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Hi vesfl, reports of La France's parentage remain speculation, from "seedling found in seed bed", to "suspected seedling of Mme Falcot" and "possible seedling of Mme. Victor Verdier X Mme Bravy". This opens that old Pandora's Box of how a rose should be classified. Should it be by breeding or how it appears or performs, what someone should realistically expect from it? Where do those lines begin? Using Weigand's Symphony as an example, from breeding (HP X HT), it should be a Hybrid Tea as they were generally accepted as Hybrid Perpetual X Tea or HT, but if you bought it, expecting a Hybrid Tea, you would be disappointed as it doesn't LOOK like nor perform/grow like one. How about Lady Hillingdon? It's generally accepted to be more cold hardy than the average "Tea" and it strongly resembles the "Tea look". 1910 is quite late for a Tea to be bred and released, but if you bought it expecting a Hybrid Tea, you would probably be disappointed because it LOOKS more Tea-like. Charlotte Armstrong and many of her descendants looked more Tea-like. Compare how Lemon Spice and Lady Hillingdon look and grow and you see strong similarities between them, as well as strong differences. Had Lemon Spice appeared half a century earlier, it may have been introduced as a Tea because it doesn't "look" like the post Peace HTs. Peace, for that matter, reintroduced more of the Hybrid Perpetual look into Hybrid Teas. I propose had it been introduced forty years earlier, it could well have been marketed as the long sought after yellow HP. How about Sally Holmes? It is a floribunda crossed with what we call a Hybrid Musk, but the Hybrid Musk (Ballerina) in question is by all appearances a Hybrid Multiflora, as the vast majority of them have been and are. We call Sally a shrub or climber, depending upon how she responds to where and how she is grown, but in strictly breeding lines, she should be a Hybrid Musk or Hybrid Multiflora. The same is true of Iceberg. Robin Hood (hybrid musk/shrub, but also from performance in many places, simply a polyantha) X Virgo (Hybrid Tea). Breeding should have it called a Hybrid Musk, but if you bought one expecting that type of rose, would you be satisfied? La France looked and performed differently from what came before it, therefore it was something "new". Many other HP X Tea or HT crosses had been raised and a number released before it, but nothing else LOOKED differently, looked like La France, therefore La France was the "first". Guillot reportedly considered it a "Hybrid Bourbon". There is always that bleed over when different lines of anything, from plants, through animals (including Humans) are inter bred. The accepted "breeding" traits of an organism may or may not express themselves in a generation under scrutiny and may not for a number of generations. That fouls up our practice of classifying or pigeon-holing what ever it is into groups so we can figure out what to expect from them. Pragmatically, La France "quacks like a duck"... so if you want a Hybrid Tea appearance and performance, you buy it as a Hybrid Tea. If you want something that looks and performs like a Hybrid Perpetual, you buy Symphony.
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professorroush
11 years ago
One of the most reliable repeat-bloomers in my garden is the Bourbon 'Coquette des Blanches'. She's a very neat bush, about 4 feet tall and 3 feet around, and blooms her head off with petite blush white blooms and a great fragrance. Disease resistant as well.

Here is a link that might be useful: Garden Musings blog on Coquette des Blanches
mariannese
11 years ago
Gruss an Teplitz, classed by some as a bourbon, by others as a chinensis, is one of my best roses of all classes. It never gets as tall for me as in warmer climates but it flowers profusely and is often the last rose of summer in my garden. Like Mme Eugene E. Marlitt it was bred by Rudolf Geschwind. Kronprinzessin Viktoria is also very good, better that Souvenir de la Malmaison for me.

Alfred Colomb is one of my best HP's.
ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
11 years ago
HP's don't do well in my hot, dry climate and I also find little to admire about them in terms of adding to the beauty of the garden. I've been quite taken though with pictures of Vick's Caprice. As far as the Bourbons are concerned, I've found the short Bourbons to be very good in my garden, and have SdlM, Kronprinzessin Viktoria, Romaggi Plot Bourbon, Leveson-Gower, Mme. Cornelissen and the beautiful Mme. Dore. All of them bloom their heads off and normally have almost no disease, except for this strange winter and spring with its greatly increased disease problems. I do have one of the larger ones, Deuil de Dr. Raynaud, with a lovely scent, but the blooms quickly fry in the heat, and I don't think it's meant for my climate. It however has had no disease.

Ingrid
sammy zone 7 Tulsa
11 years ago
I think you need Maggie.

sammy
catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
11 years ago
Ulrich Brunner fils. is an incredibly tough and reliable HP in my garden, where Grandmother's Hat, who generally earns raves from all, is being regarded with a jaundiced eye for black-spotting to a fare-thee-well this spring and being almost entirely leafless at the moment -- here, in California, for heaven's sake!

Meanwhile, Ulrich Brunner's foliage is perfect, it was covered with flowers, and was such a show-stopper that two neighbors have asked for cuttings. It reblooms rapidly. It is an own-root cutting from my mother's virused 50-year+ old plant. I keep it pruned as a shrub, about 5' x 5' in size.

I have Mistress Bosanquet, who does seem to have the bourbon's affinity for fungal diseases early in the season, but she gets better later, blooms very well, and the color is enchanting. I also have Souv. de St. Anne's who suffers less from disease than Mistress Bosanquet here.

Debbie
jerijen
11 years ago
I am on the Southern California coast, and I think our conditions are similar -- but that my soil is sandy and thin, and my conditions profoundly-alkaline.

Lots of spring fog.

Few HPs succeed here, and almost no Bourbons (unless you count Ragged Robin as a Bourbon, which I don't.) DO grow Ragged Robin!!! LOTS of it!

Many sneer at Baronne Prevost, but she was wonderful here for 20+ years, tho badly virused.
Now, I have "Linsley Plot Quartered Pink," which may be a good old Baronne Prevost, and shares her virtues.

Boule de Niege DOES do well here.
Coquette des Blanches does not -- apparently longing for some winter chill. It won't bloom.

GROW GRANDMOTHER'S HAT, if you can get it. I think you may soon have a European source.

Most other HPs mildewed terminally here -- and most Bourbons either mildew, or die, or both, in succession.

Jeri
melissa_thefarm
Original Author
11 years ago
Taoseeker, Barbara, Prof, SpiderLily, Marianne, Ingrid, Sammy, Debbie,
Thank you all for your input! I will be studying your answers.
It's possible I may have 'Gruss an Teplitz' and 'Ulrich Brunner Fils'. These are candidate identities for two of my syrup roses; I need to compare foliage and other characteristics with some good clear photos I found on HMF. My possible GaT is a reluctant grower, unfortunately. It has smooth slender red China-looking young growth and rich China-red nodding blooms with white at the petal bases, and--most exciting--an old rose scent. Healthy, but it doesn't want to grow, and I scattered three plants of it about the garden hoping that one would find conditions it liked. Marianne, vigor aside, does this sound like 'Gruss an Teplitz'? I'm still hoping these plants will build up in time: they have new growth this spring.
I've heard that 'Ulrich Brunner Fils' is one of the varieties traditionally used for making syrup in Italy, but haven't done a close comparison between my rose and photos. I noticed one shot on HMF showed a rose with light yellow-green chlorotic-looking foliage, just like my rose has.
I hope to hear more comments, and from the Californians in particular, as parts of the state probably come closest to mine in growing conditions. Thanks again to all of you who have written in!
Melissa
taoseeker
11 years ago
Yes it sounds like Gruss an Teplitz Melissa, and it can behave like that, doesn't want to grow, but with a lot of fragrance and always with flowers, blackspot or not. I often wonder if there are several roses sold under the same name, as is the case with some of the dark hybrid perpetuals. Like the situation with with Comte de Chambord, Mmme Knorr and Mme Boll ten years ago, I kept ordering from several places just to double and triple check. I'm still not sure if there is a different Mmm Knorr or not. Souvenir d'Alphonse Lavallee from Rosenposten in Denmark and Martin Weingart in Germany is really good. I like Hybrid Perpetuals, many of them seem to handle my climate well, rain, a bit of sun, and rain. I think they give my garden a lot of beauty. Maybe I'm not so strict with the shape of my roses, I try to make the best of the ones that are healthy and flower well. I have Alfred Colomb a few places and it grows very shapely mostly by himself, rather a graceful shrub with arching canes and around 1 meter tall. Do you remember Pierre Lauwers' Baron Girod de l'Ain growing up a tree? I'm still impressed by that one. I never got around to order his books on HPs.

I struggle a bit with some of the moss and centifolias, they get rather leggy and bare if I don't prune carefully, maybe Fantin-Latour is my favorite among them. Fantin looks a bit like a bourbon to me though. I don't have many bourbons, but at the cottage I planted Reine Victoria in litterally drained peat bog (!!), but with a lot of amendmets. It is years since the area was drained though. It alwas have some winter damage. but this summer will bit it's sixth summer and still grows well.
Campanula UK Z8
11 years ago
well, I have Coupe d'Hebe which is a rather lovely globular rose. Thinking of the name though, do you grow Hebe's Lip, Melissa? If not, take a look. Although a once bloomer, it has a gorgeous delicacy lacking in many damsk roses (to my mind) and, having much of the species in it's lineage, it is a rather lovely, delicate but very tough rose. It goes by many synonyms on HMF (margined hip, Rubrotincta, Emmeline) - I love, love, love this rose as it represents the epitome of what I am hoping to achieve in my rosy allotment - wild but beautiful, mannerly but significant, delicate but fierce.
HPs - not a one - need too much fussing and take up too much space with ungainly floppy long canes, oversize blooms and faintly artificial looking.
taoseeker
11 years ago
Weird how Hybrid Perpetuals have to answer for complaint you can throw on just about any class of roses; floppy canes? artificial look? Anything more than five petals is on the artificial side, and HPs certainly do not look plastic. I have grown a few upright ones like Dupuis Jamain; Yolande D'Aragon (which seems to jump beteween portland and HP classes; Mrs John Laing (needs a warm spot, but in Italy that is probably any spot); and Caroline de Sansal. Alfred Colomb like I mentioned is very well behaved and no fuzz at all, but with more arching canes.
jerijen
11 years ago
Mrs. John Laing is, I think, a beautiful rose.
But it my part of Southern California it rusts to an apocalyptic level.

'La Reine' lovely as she is, mildews first, rusts later.
I have tried several clones of L.R., and they ALL do that here -- but for "Barbara's Pasture Rose," which is in appearance "La Reine On-Steroids." (An unusually large and vigorous version of L.R.)

"The Portland From Glendora" (which is identified as 'Joasine Hanet,') is a very very tall-growing Portland-ish rose, found in California. It, too, might have migrated to Europe, and it's a winner.

Debbie, "Grandmother's Hat" likes fairly dry air, and in really wet conditions, yes -- she can blackspot.

She did so here, this spring, in our prolonged rainy period, but she's cleaned up her act now, and is doing just fine. I should say, tho, that the GH's which have blackspotted noticeably are the three or four plants I suspect of being virused.

Jeri
catspa_NoCA_Z9_Sunset14
11 years ago
Jeri, the weird late rains this year (rain again yesterday) no doubt contributing to "Grandmother's Hat" woes, plus she is not yet an established plant (just in last year). I see she is pushing out new leaves, so hopefully will look like her cheerful self soon. At the moment, though, she looks like a plucked chicken! Will be interesting to see if she shows signs of virus down the road. -- Debbie
jerijen
11 years ago
Debbie -- Most folks selling her these days are selling good clones. I wouldn't worry.

Jeri
jaxondel
11 years ago
It's odd that the 2 photos of the Bourbon 'Marquis de Balbiano' at HMF are from European gardens, but that the solitary supplier of the rose is in the U.S. Otherwise, I would have suggested that you consider it for your garden. Based on my experience, Mike Lowe was absolutely correct when he said that, as a pillar rose, MdB has few peers. Check around, it must be available from somewhere in your neck of the woods . . .
melissa_thefarm
Original Author
11 years ago
Jeri,
Thanks for the feedback; I was hoping you'd write in. You must have posted your first message right when I began to write mine, and so I missed it.
As to growing conditions, we have more winter chill and perhaps more summer heat than you, fog not too often during the growing season, heavy soil and perhaps not as alkaline as what you describe. It's significant that rust is practically unknown here, and blackspot isn't a major problem (though I don't like it when it shows up). Actually, when I'm not worrying about drought, landslides, (earthquakes,) and the economic policies of the Italian government, I'm inclined to think that we have a perfect environment for growing roses. (I'm beginning to think this country needs a revolution, AND all its politicians struck down by lightning from heaven: it seems the only way to get rid of them.)
'Gloire des Rosomanes' is probably available in Europe, but I don't believe is common in Italy: I don't remember ever seeing it offered for sale in this country, and no one I know has it. You bet I would like to have it. I seem to recall reading that it's confused in commerce with 'Nur Mahal', in Europe I believe.
Taoseeker,
Aha! Several years ago I too ordered 'Comte de Chambord', 'Mme. Boll', and 'Mme. Knorr' (from Schultheis in Germany) and ended up with what looked like three identical roses...a wonderful one, to be sure. Like you I'm wondering if there's a unique 'Mme. Knorr' in commerce. I have a fourth plant arrived from who knows where, that looks like these three, but I need to re-compare them all carefully to see whether there are differences.
Thanks for reminding me of the dark Hybrid Perpetuals, a group I have no personal experience with, but consider worth looking into. I don't think 'Fantin-Latour' has much Centifolia about it either; I think it falls into the category of what Vintage calls Hybrid Bourbons. It's a wonderful rose, fragrant, vigorous, and healthy, and a pleasure just to handle. The Centifolias and Mosses generally do well for me, but I have easy conditions. With leggy plants sometimes I do have to prune harder: 'La Noblesse' is a good example, and I think I'll have to cut back 'Shailer's White Moss' more than I have in the past. This last rose, so beautiful, is showing bits of pink on a lot of its flowers this year.
Suzy, after losing two purchased grafted plants of 'Hebe's Lip' (herbicide and mowing), I got cuttings in a swap and now have three plants of it growing around the property. They're young but growing fine and I'm looking forward to seeing them in their maturity. 'Coupe d'Hebe' is duly noted.
Jaxondel,
Okay, 'Marquis de Balbiano'; I'll keep it in mind.
This is a great discussion.
Melissa
Campanula UK Z8
11 years ago
oh Taoseeker, not meaning to offend. There was a whole array of HPs at my college which looked pretty good but only because there were over 100 horticultural students to fuss over them (we pegged and trained, pruned and snipped, watered and fed, then the florists got in there too). In my garden, they are just too iffy - I have not great soil - many problems with water retention (lack of) and they tend to get horrible BS and rust. Rust, especially, is a nightmare because all of my plants are growing high on structures, all very close together, so for me, the whole style and performance rests on keeping a wild garden under control....and for this, the species and close species are much the best roses. While I have no HPs, I also do not grow damask roses, centifolias, HTs....in fact, I have limited my choices to wild roses and close hybrids (hebe's Lip, Schoener's nutkana, Pomifera duplex, Nevada, and so on), Hybrid musks (but mainly the single flowered types), a couple of noisettes (not the best roses, imo here), albas and a few bourbons (but only in my home garden)
It is much more a case of having the right plant to suit my soil, my climate, my style.....and HPs, or indeed any of the large, many petalled OGRs and Austins are just not appropriate. Even so, I give in to temptation with ridiculous mauves and 'brown' roses, various single HTs (Mrs Oakley Fisher, Dainty Maid et al) - many of which straggle on, somewhat out of sight.
wintercat_gw
11 years ago
Just seconding Jeri's recommendation of Ragged Robin. My climate is very hot & very humid and RR is one of 3 roses I didn't have to spray so far.

The blooms are just lovely and they keep on looking good even when they age and disintegrate, so they don't spoil the overall appearance of the bush.
melissa_thefarm
Original Author
11 years ago
Suzy--
Gallicas???
bart_2010
11 years ago
I hope to eventually find time to read all the comments on this most interesting thread.I myself am rather fond of bourbons and HP's for the beauty of the flowers. To me, Madame Isaac Pereire is just so beautiful that all it's "sins" are forgiven. Now that mine is established better and I improved the soil, it's health is pretty dang good, I'd say. It was so breath-taking this year,with those sumptuous flowers of that incredible colour, and that perfume...Some years it's not very impressive at all, and for me doesn't re-bloom much at all (my conditions are similar to those of Melissa, with summers so dry that I don't get much re-bloom on anything usually),but my Heavens, when it IS good , like this year, I just kept on staring at it, marvelling over Creation. Zephirine Drouhin was also gorgeous this year, and has shown no signs at all of poor health.Gloire de Ducher is an HP with flowers that to me are so incredibly unique and beautiful. Mine has(had fairly bad mildew and blackspot,but I discovered that the soil around the roots was bone dry,so there's a good excuse. Plus, it's putting out lots of vigorous new growth this year, and I didn't spray at all from March until the end of May (at which point I did do a copper-sulphur spray, since many roses were getting mildew due to the weather conditions). So I'm not judging Gloire de Ducher harshly. On the other hand, sadly I have a lot of trouble with Reine des Violettes. As a plant it grows quite well, but though it covers itself in buds, they do not open well at all! I am trying to fertilize them more (I got a second one , just to see if the first one was dud plant or something) but the outlook isn't too promising. What a shame if I have to sp this rose,for the flowers can be so breath-taking!I'm going to try a little longer...How does RdV do for you, Melissa? regards, bart
olga_6b
11 years ago
I used to grow a lot of different HPs and bourbons. Still have some. My all time favorite is bourbon Deuil de Dr Reynaud.
Olga

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