True, but one thing I'm curious about -- I've read of others growing purplish OGRs on alkaline soil, and they don't bloom as "purple". I wonder if it may have to do with "purple" tones arising from breakdown of red pigments in acidic flower petals. Do you find that to be the case where you are?

:-)

~Christopher

Thanks everyone!

This would apply to Madame IP also? RdV and MIP both arrived with blackspots but now look clean and healthy. Just didn't really take off though so thanks so much for the advice.

Would ashes from the fireplace be good to add also? I have a lot of land that is streaky so the soil is quite different in each area. I mistakenly assumed that the sandy areas would be more acidic. But then I also read that RdV needed a lot of food so put her in what I thought were the more fertile looking darker areas.

Wood ashes are strongly alkaline.

:-)

~Christopher

Oops, thank you!!!

Christopher, my soil pH is 7.2, so it isn't horrendously alkaline. However, over the years I have found out that a lot of the supposed effects of alkaline soil are more from the arid climate that stereotypically has alkaline soil on this continent. Purple roses are purple here, and I have more than one or two of them.

Ah, ok.....good to know!

:-)

~Christopher

I have an own root RdV here from ARE and I think it is doing well. I planted it using a bag of potting soil for acid loving plants mixed with my usual earthworm castings and native "soil" here and it seems fine as a bush so far. I think it is about 4 ft tall and under two years old. I love it! My soil may be neutral per my amateur testing.

You go back to edit the post, get the curser just to the right of the image, and delete as if you were deleting text. When you find the pic you want, have the cursor where you want the image, click "Photo" or "Houzz Photo" below, and select the file.

:-)

~Christopher

I found one, and Thank you, Christopher. Not a flush, but a bush shot.

Palantine is an excellent nursery. In fact, I am giving a presentation on them at my Rose Society next month. We all picked our favorite rose source and will talk about them.

Christopher, I took my pic with my iphone. It's very hard to get a good color on it. When I use my DSLR, i have better luck. But most of my pictures I take when I'm just walking around, so they are on the phone.

Here is my Frau Karl Drushki. I bought this at HD for $8. It's own root. I thought it died a few times. When they dug up my yard, this was the cut off of where they dug and took down my fence. I had other plants to the left of it, but now It's grass. I might dig up the grass and add more roses. As you see, the canes are long and will bloom horizontally. It's a pure white, the petals are a bit thin and tissue like, so it's not good for arrangements (I have TRIED). The buds are pink, so they look nice. I might put Altissimo next to it, I love red/white combos. BTW, the netting on top is not for the roses, although it can help keep them in line. It's to keep my cats from jumping over the fence!

Thanks Sheila, very inspiring!

Great picture Buford and lol about the cat netting!

Thank you again for everyone's comments and Christopher thank you so much for posting the "Way Back" version of Vintage Gardens and the information about habits. That's been very helpful. Fascinated by how different the habits are. I love how the Frau Karl Druschki in Buford's photo above grows sideways!

Marlorena, I've been examining some more photos online, and am beginning to think that the photo of the rose I'm so entranced with may in fact be a (mis-labeled) photo of a Gloire de Ducher, rather than the Reine des Violettes. I can now see how rose colors can be difficult to determine due to the variability of cameras, cell phone pictures, computer monitors, unreliable websites, etc. At first I thought that maybe the RdV blooms were a fairly dark, mauve color when they're just beginning to open. But now I do wonder if I'm in love with a photo of Gloire de Ducher. So thank you for suggesting it--and I've been admiring your beautiful photos of it on other threads. I've located where to purchase one in the USA, so it's now high on my list of choices. It is definitely unusual, but I do love dark flowers, and it is calling to me. I'm thinking maybe I should also get the DA Munstead Wood in addition to the Gloire de Ducher. The Munstead seems as if it may be a little easier to grow, and that way, I can learn about caring for both a Hybrid Perpetual and a David Austin English and observe how they both do.

In my choice of rose, I'm trying to work with the color of my current inherited roses. I personally feel their color is a bit too intense, but I would feel so guilty if I shovel pruned them, due to their incredible vigor. They're endlessly-blooming, very healthy shrubs with blooms of a fiercely bright color that could best be described as "cherry red." A pinkish red, with blue undertones. Please pardon the links to these non-antiques, but they most closely resemble a rose called Firefighter: Firefighter or maybe Fiji: Fiji

They are not subtle my any means. Their color kind of overpowers everything else in my garden. My garden is not huge, so they dictate the color of every perennial I plant. I like to repeat colors in varying places in the garden, but this cherry color has been nearly impossible to find in blooms on plants I actually like. So instead I thought I would add another rose that picks up on the color of the barely-open blooms of "Cherry" as I'll call it, since I don't know for certain what it's real name is. When just opening, "Cherry's" blooms are a similar shade to the fully open Gloire de Ducher, until "Cherry's" blooms fully open and become incredibly...cherry colored. My hope is that a darker rose will balance out the sheer intensity of "Cherry." And so that's what began my investigation into Antiques, which has been extremely interesting so far.

Mad Gallica, I'm not in coastal New England--I'm in NY State like you, but way down in the coastal Zone 7b area. Last week it was close to 70F here, and this week it's in the 40s and 50s. But last year, we had the Polar Vortex, with temps in the teens and 20s. Do you think it's better to purchase a rose grown in my same hardiness Zone, 7b, like maybe one grown in the Carolinas? Or would it be better to get one raised in a colder hardiness Zone, like in upstate NY? In other words, with Antiques, should I be more conscious of winter issues, rather than summer issues? I was thinking something raised in a similar kind of hot, humid climate we have here in the summer would be more resistant to blackspot and mildew, but maybe that idea is way off base? In July and August, we mostly have temps here in the 80s and 90s. Some days, it gets into the upper 90s. Hot, sticky, humid. Definitely a climate of extremes.

Thanks again everyone!

Hidden, I think it is the genetics of the rose that determines it's behaviors and disease resistance. You can purchase it from other locations and it will behave like it would in your climate, where ever you got it. Rootstock or own root can make a difference of course and all sorts of cultural practices.

Hidden, welcome to the forum!

In addition to HPs, you might enjoy a once blooming Gallica like Paul Barden's Rook. It grows about 3 feet or so with pruning and is very disease resistant. It doesn't spread (by stolons) very rapidly and is deep burgundy-purple. Available own root at Rogue Valley Roses.

The classic Tuscany Superb is also deep burgundy-purple and spreads reasonably in my garden. Cardinal de Richelieu is purple-purple in my garden and spreads a bit more aggressively. TS and CdR should be available grafted at Palatine and will not spread if planted with the graft above soil. Order in early fall as soon as Palatine opens its mail ordering or the roses sell out! BUT if you decide to go own-root with your Gallicas, you can slice off the running stolons and root more roses for yourself or share with friends! Most Gallicas tend to be healthy.

I'm over on the other wet, blackspotty coast, but Reine des Violettes is one of the healthier HPs for me. She is purply pinky mauve (how's that for color analysis?) in my soil/climate.

Veilchenblau and Violette are two wonderful purple ramblers. Veilchenblau is thornless! Both are once blooming and will knock your socks off in spring!! Both are healthy for me.

I'd say all the above roses are pretty bulletproof for me. Prune ramblers after bloom. Prune Gallicas after bloom and prune just a bit more to shape in late winter/very early spring. They all bloom on old wood.

Carol

Here is my RdV. Own root from Greenmantle Nursery in California. I planted her in the root zone of a huge ash tree. I may have thrown in a little potting soil (E. B. Stone organic Rose Grow) mixed in with the native soil, but that would have been it. My soil is sandy loam and alkaline. My city water is quite alkaline. I don't do anything to combat that--it's either sink or swim. I was giving diluted fish emulsion twice a year, but due to a car accident, lugging the watering can around the yard was not an option, so in 2016 I used Osmacote Plus sparingly twice. I didn't notice any difference in the color of RdV's leaves or flowers. Leaves have always been a nice medium to dark green. Flowers are mauvey purple.

I love all these photos of RdV! Carol

I used to have RdV. It expired either from cold or too much competition from trees next door. The blooms are exquisitely beautiful. The photo above gives an idea of their color, but it is is softer and more complex, fading to a luminous lilac, "Parma violet" G.S Thomas called it. He captured it in his watercolor of it.

I think if it is mostly china it should not be bothered by heat. The only drawback is that the flowers are quite short lived, especially for cutting.

G. S. Thomas advised that it needs good cultivation. He also praised the grayness of the leaves and their peppery scent, but I guess rose fans already know that

I like the idea of going with different shades of red, especially the dark ones. Purple companion plants like clematis Etoile Violette would probably help too.

Will RdV stay green all year in milder climates?

Mine stay green till February-ish then get bs/rust. If I'm not feeling lazy I pick them off and then they refoliate themselves as part of the spring growth. If not, they hang around looking tatty and then fall off when the new growth comes. YMMV, of course, mine are in a sheltered area. Most of my roses do this bar the truly hardy once bloomers who drop their foliage in the autumn.

Maybe this picture gives an idea:
http://klematis.org/my_homepage_files/IMG_810.jpg

My RdV kept the leaves, which look pretty good.

Oh that's good news that they will stay green!

I have several but they are too young for me to know much about yet. I'm hoping that they will not behave as climbers, though I do have an area where they can get as tall as they want. As long as I don't have to assist!

Monarda and Tessiess, thanks for the great pictures!

Thank you Tessiess for another lovely RdV photo. It helps to see a many different shots of it to try and get an idea of the bloom color and also the leaf color. That is good to know the leaves have a grayness to them--the leaves look beautiful in your photo. I appreciate your info (and portlanmysteryrose and Sheila's info!) about the heat tolerance, disease resistance and genetics component too.

Right now I'm trying to decide between Reine des Violette and a Bourbon, the Madame Ernest Calvat. I kind of like the way the canes of the Madame E.C. seem to grow horizontally. I think "Madame" might save valuable real estate in my tiny garden and I can underplant her with a ground cover. Still, I can't seem to forget the beautiful color of the RdV. Decisions, decisions.

To accompany whichever rose I choose, I was also thinking of adding a Marie Pavié -- I've read that the Polyanthas perform well in humidity? I like the look of the leaves and the reddish-colored stems, and it seems like she won't get too gigantic.

Hope everyone on the East Coast is doing okay in this Nor'easter storm & thanks again!

I'm not disparaging the Gallicas, but that oft-repeated line of them being the "oldest of all garden roses" ignores the fact that depictions of China and/or Tea roses date back at least a thousand years earlier. Westerners erroneously date them to the time when they were brought to Europe from China, ignoring the fact that the Chinese had already been growing them for centuries.

:-)

~Christopher

Rosa gallica is one of those plants, like wine grapes and olives, that were spread around the Mediterranean so early that nobody knows their point of origin. That puts it as a cultivated plant before around 200 BC.

There are records of rose gardens in China dating back to dynasties from 5,000 years ago.

:-)

~Christopher

There weren't dynasties 5,000 years ago. . . . at least not in China.

I love that there's a place in the world where people are into the detailed specifics of roses and history! I'm such an OGR nerd. :-)

Hidden, I think Marie Pavie is an excellent choice!

Carol

Whoops, that was a typo. It should have been 4,000 years ago. 'Old Blush' was already mentioned in Chinese BCE times, and not as a "new introduction". In terms of individual cultivars, it's probably the oldest still available.

It's hard to find the references to how old the original China imports are because most date them from the time of introduction to the West. If you search through pre-Western Chinese references to rose gardening, you'll find descriptions from the Shang and Xia Dynasties. I don't have them at the tips of my fingers at the moment, but I could probably find them again.

:-)

~Christopher

I would be interested in those references since I only know about things like oracle bones dating back that far. The oldest extant Chinese books are about 500 years newer than the Library of Ashurbanipal, but that is a function of material as much as anything. Who would have guessed that if you really want to preserve something, you write it on mud.

The histories were passed orally and written down sometime in the last centuries BCE.

The point I'm trying to make is that most of the "old rose books" are UK/European in origin, and they write from a UK/European historical perspective. They start with European OGRs back to the Greeks and Romans, and proceed forward through the new introductions from China. They called them "new" because they were "new to them" -- barely mentioning that Chinese art going back for centuries depicted the same cultivars.

Yes, people were growing Gallica roses in Europe in BCE times, but I don't think any individual Gallica cultivar available today dates back to that time. The rose we call 'Old Blush', however, has been in cultivation for about that long. I don't mean China roses in general, but that particular cultivar.

:-)

~Christopher

I would *really* like a reference to the idea that 'Old Blush' is an ancient cultivar. It sounds too much like somebody is jumping to conclusions. To prove that it is the identical cultivar one would need botanical samples, like preserved tomb offerings, or a remarkable cultivar, like Rosa Mundi, that can be identified by a verbal description.

Persians great cultivators of roses from way back, don't forget. Not to leave out the Egyptians.

I remember one listed among references for 'Old Blush' on HelpMeFind:

"An early record of the rose in China dates from the Han Dynasty, when the Emperor Hanwudy (c. 140 BC) judged the Monthly Rose (Chang Wei) to be more beautiful than the smile of his most esteemed concubine. This rose, frequently reproduced on porcelain and silk, appears very similar to our 'Old Blush China' of today."

Otherwise, that it appeared in very old Chinese artwork was mentioned in Thomas Christopher's book In Search of Lost Roses. And there was this article on rose.org, which alluded to a long history of roses being grown.

I don't remember all the sources I've read offhand, and I haven't really saved many online references that offered little more than snippets or rehashing of other sources, so finding again what I happened upon via my many web surfing adventures won't be easy. As I try searching now, I'm not finding those original paths. I'll have to come back to this thread another time.

:-)

~Christopher

I attended Great Rosarians of the World at the Huntington, in 2013, at which Dr. Walter Lewis of the Missouri Botanical Garden and researcher on roses commented that the oldest rose, worldwide, that he knew of that had been tested was Rosa minutifolia. It is ancient. I can't recall exactly what he said but think hundreds of thousands of years old at least (he may have said over a million--don't have my notes handy). This rose is very, very primitive looking, and at first glance to some they may not recognize it as a rose. Looks prehistoric with its weird bristly/thorny canes and tiny crinkly foliage. Single flowers.

Found this Tessiess and thought it was neat about Rosa Minutifolia http://ucjeps.berkeley.edu/ina/roses/minutifolia.html

Another vote for Marie Pavie! Her scent tends to waft in the garden and she is never without bloom here in mid-Atlantic coastal 8a. Marie Daly has the same virtues and is a bit pinker.

How tall does Marie Daly get for you babarag? Thanks!

Thank you barbarag, that is good to know about the Marie Pavie. She is a definite on my list, even though I wasn't sure about how fragrant she was --- so it's nice to know she has a wafting scent and that she blooms well for you in an Atlantic coastal 8 Zone, which is similar to my climate. The Marie Daly is beautiful too, wow. So hard to choose just one...

I second the sweet, wafting scent! Delicious and one of my more fragrant roses. Carol

Portlandmystery, I'm loving hearing about all of this wafting! Does she get tall for you? Or anybody?

Not tall for me. Healthy, bushy, and about 3' x 3' max. Flowers are delicately formed and blush to white depending on weather. Foliage and flowers are in scale with plant size and each other. Healthy. She looks fantastic with purple! When she is in full bloom and conditions are right, I can catch her scent from several feet away. Giver her a little time to settle in and put on growth if she's own root. Carol

Thanks so much for the info. I'll bet she does look great with purple!

Both Maries grow to a nice rounded 3X 3 here in coastal SE Virginia 8A. In our intense afternoon sun both are blush to white; we only see much pink in early spring and late fall. We find Marie Pavie to be almost as healthy blackspot-wise. Morning sun is key.

Other polyanthas can get much larger; even Perle d'Or and Cecile Brunner. These can be kept to a smaller size but with these twiggy growers it's no small project.

I was debating Perle also because I have a shaded area and big would actually be an asset in this spot. How does her scent compare for you? Does she wash out in the sun?

My spot is trickier with only afternoon sun, and it can be brutal!

Perle's scent is very light. Her apricot blooms fade more quickly in sun, but they are charming either way. Perle is quite thorny and grows into a substantial bush. In its shadier location, my Perle can easily top 6 feet even when pruned regularly. Her buds are like tiny high centered Hybrid Tea buds. She is very healthy. Like Marie, Perle blooms late spring through fall. Something else to note about Marie Pavie: she's thornless. Carol

Oh, that's super helpful that you say that Perle does have thorns. Thought that she was thornless and this will be right by a path. Thanks so much for the info!