Even if the floor space between cabinets is 10' wide, it's still going to create a barrier between the sink and the fridge. And it will only give you an island of 24" wide if you have 48" aisles.

48" aisle? My KD said code is "36?

mock up a 36 inch aisle with cardboard boxes so you get a real feel for the height and then you'll know how 36" aisle feels to you. . I'm a careless-whirling dervish (unfortunately) in the kitchen and 36" would feel tight.

Code is necessary in electrical and plumbing but in aisles widths, comfort and function is important and 36" is too narrow. Many people in a one cook kitchen are fine with 42"

If the range wall is 10' then proportionally from the drawing A is about 6'.

OP either needs to get out a measuring tape if this is current space or ask more questions of the designer.

36" may be "Code", but it's definitely NOT the minimum recommended. Remember, Codes are not designed for functionally working in the Kitchen - they're for the mechanicals.

The minimum recommended aisle widths are:

• 42" for a one-person work aisle

and

• 48" for a two-person work aisle

Keep in mind that aisle width is measured to/from the items that stick out into the aisle the farthest - counter edges, appliance handles, walls, etc. They are not measured cabinet-to-cabinet. Cabinet sizes are just the boxes - not the doors or counter overhangs (average of 1.5").

MaWizz...I have a "U" with 10' b/w the legs and there is nowhere near enough room for an island. I had originally wanted one like everyone else (it is the current fashion, after all), but the folks here on Kitchens finally convinced me that an island would not fit if I wanted a functional Kitchen. I am so grateful to those people who explained it to me! I shudder to think what my Kitchen would have been like if I had gone ahead with an island!!

My Kitchen's Layout:

KDs are often cabinet salespeople who really don't understand all that much about true Kitchen design - their goal is to sell cabinets, lots of cabinets! Even true KDs will often design a poor Kitchen b/c they're afraid they'll lose a customer if they're honest and upfront with them. Here on the Kitchens Forum, we are volunteers and do not have to worry about making a profit, so we can be honest with you. Our goal is to help you get the best design/most functional Kitchen possible - not make money.

In the end, it's up to you - it's your Kitchen and you can do whatever you want with it. We just hope you will listen with an open mind so you can make informed decisions.

My dad remodeled our kitchen when I was a kid. I am 99.9% sure that he didnt use a kitchen designer or anything like that. He just went to a hardware store that sold Kraftmaid Cabinets and picked out cabinets that fit. We were a family of 4 and you had to walk thru the kitchen to get to the eating area and to the family room. I know on the inside aisle of the kitchen its 36" and it is TIGHT. the outside aisle might be slightly more like 38" maybe. You cannot have 2 people working in the kitchen at once. walking thru it is even kind of claustrophobic. Do not go with 36". We have a 16" wide kitchen and I have a 48" wide island and cabinets on both walls and I think that left us with 91.5" of space to divide between 2 aisles. I think we made the inside aisle slightly smaller since we have the fridge on the other side of the island and we wanted that aisle wider. It all worked out well but that with 91.5" of space for aisles! You wont even have 36" for aisle space since one you subtract the 48" for cabinets on each wall you have 72" leftover. Then subtract another 3" for countertop overhang and you are at 69". Now you need to divide the 69" into 2 aisles and an island. Not possible!

4thumbs thanks for the feedback. That sink is an error on the drawing it should be 1 sink with no divide. Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate your insight. of things to think about.

my KD suggested outlets high too in fact said I could do them all high if I want a clean looking backsplash without all the outlet cutouts. I'm not sure I want to see cords going up the wall either.

4thumbs: "white appliances which are easier to clean" - well, all the handles turned irrovocably yellow after a couple years. However, I do agree re SS, that is HARD to clean, as evidenced by my SS coffee maker. (I am giving a whirl with black appliances, as so far as I can.. we'll see!)

One sink no divider does appear to be the best, if you do a double sink make one side a lot smaller than the other (which is what I ended up doing, since no one really mentioned the double sink problem to me a couple years ago when I ran my kitchen through the site... but I think they're right!) At any rate, I picked a faucet with a detachable spigot (or whatever that part is called) so there won't be any issue in my sink. I have tall pots, but no wide roasters -- yeah, when I do a turkey, I buy the disposable turkey roaster... that stuff BAKES on!

My outlets are above the backsplash so no cutouts - I kept the backsplash on the low side. The only cords that will be seen are for the items permanently out on the counter (microwave, toaster oven, and George Foreman) and these are tall enough to block seeing the cords. Everything else only will come out as needed, and put away after.

Perhaps the best thing to do is observe your current working methods and then design your kitchen according to the way you work. For instance I find that most of my food prep is done between the stove and sink. I like my spice cabinet near the stove. Then I'm always in and out of the fridge, so I like that nearby as well. It's little things like that.

So the best kitchen designer is probably the one who is actually doing the cooking. So just incorporate the things that are most important to you.

Practigal to answer your questions:

What kind of foundation are you on?

slab, with no electric to island kitchen guy says easy to do if I want to.

I think that you already have an island in your existing kitchen do you use it?

yes it's considered a moveable island I'm told ...not fixed no electric. Use it all the time. Main prep and central landing spot for everything.

To me this is still a huge amount of cabinets, are all of your cabinets really in use?

no!

I don't think you are making enough of a change to justify the costs involved.

It needs to be done regardless as the cabinets are falling apart. We were thinking at the very least if we can update the cabinets countertops and backsplash that would be awesome . But I guess at this point I really want to see if we could do something better.

I know you all have a lot of experience with this sort of thing and I'm open to change if it is an improvement.

I would love to do that kitchen layout in the picture you posted but I don't have the width to do it and if I Leave it as is and take out the island I feel like there's just a big empty space in the middle.

Mamagoose

Is the length of the range wall (B) 10', or is that the floor space in front of the cabinets on that wall?

B = 10'

A and C = 13'

Buehl I printed that link thanks so much!

CP I'm with you on the gas cooktop! I thought the linewas

"real cooks use gas" lol

kidding aside I like the control with gas

Laminate for the counter tops can be fine. You will indeed save money. Make sure you have a wrap-around laminate, if you do so. I have laminate now, but have quartz (becuz my brother loves it) in my current build. I went Corian in the bathrooms.

As shown, the island definitely won't work. I don't even think of it as a barrier island, but more like the iceberg that sunk the Titanic. Especially if you have anyone in there with you, opening the fridge or the DW.

Regards wine cooler: depends on your wine usage. My brother gave me his, and I can either put it in the pantry or out in the dining room next to the Pier One style wine rack for wines that don't need any cooling. Probably will do the latter. (My dining room is informal, and is indeed my ONLY interior eating space.)

cp

You have a wonderful U shaped kitchen with just the right amount of space in the middle so forget the island and keep the U as you have it.

Ditch the angled corner cabinets and do reach in cabinets. And make sure all your lowers are drawers. Perfect kitchen layout.

I'm so nervous that it will just be a big empty weird looking space in the middle if I take the island out. The movable island that is currently in the space is 28"x40". To me kinda of fills that weird void. With that said I don't like the looks of small islands in general, but love it's function in this kitchen.

I really appreciate you saying that. I've been getting very frustrated and down about doing this update because I feel like I don't have a lot of options :( yesterday found myself looking at homes for sale!

MaWizz, would you consider a stylish cart on wheels?

buehl thanks so much for sharing your layout. very nice. i too would not recommend and island in that layout...it would have been way too tight. Looks awesome. the difference i see between yours and mine is that the open space or main sink to cooktop in your kitchen is 72" mine from sink to refrigerator would be 100" which is like 2.5' more! and cabinet to cabinet even more! i feel like if mine were a little closer like yours it would look better and i would definitely not have the island.

oh gosh i apologize i had the dimensions turned around! something wasn't making sense i just remeasured so if you look at the drawing above where mama goose has the yellow lines

C = 13' (range wall)

A and B = 10'

geez i apologize for the confusion!

artemis the small island there now is fine... we all seem to be able to work without complaints. Parties it get's tight but I can't base my final decision on just occasional parties. I just need to put all the food in the dining room on the buffet so people dont want to stand around the island. lol

not big on wheeled carts.

Is the length of the range wall (B) 10', or is that the floor space in front of the cabinets on that wall?

B = 10'

A and C = 13'

I was hoping it was the other way around, because moving the fridge to the top wall and placing shallow cabinets on the bottom wall would leave space for an island. I agree will all above you have said you don't have space for an island. You can pull the cabinets out to be even with the fridge box on the bottom wall, and pull them out a few inches on the top wall, which will close some of the distance, and give you more space on the counters.

GW discussions--deeper counters

ETA - just saw your post about the dimensions--I'll see what I can come up with. Just to make sure--is the range wall (B) 13'?

mama goose

ETA - just saw your post about the dimensions--I'll see what I can come up with.

sorry about the confusion.

I hope you and others can come up with something. I'm really open to anything. I was intending to keep the same footprint as we are not changing the floor now, but found some extra tiles in the attic from when the house was built so may be able to fill in any areas if i do a new layout. currently have tile under appliances and island just not lower base cabinets if that helps. thank you in advance!

i really appreciate all your help!

Please give me a 2D with all dimensions drawn out. I have an idea for you.

If the range wall (B) is indeed 13' (and it seems so on the original
plan), you could have shallow pantries on the bottom wall, but the fridge
would have no other spot but the sink wall, extended a few inches into
the dining space. The fridge might be too visible from the hallway and
great room--how do you feel about that issue?

The island could
be 36" wide, although 30" would give you more floor space. I have an island which is 36 x 60, and I can work comfortably on one of the short
sides, facing out of the room. There isn't enough room for seating but
the island will provide extra counter space and storage. If you omit the
MW drawer, it can also be a work table style mobile island without
electric.

The only place the floor would need to be patched would be in front of the shallow pantries. Click to enlarge:

mama goose yes those are the correct dimensions

thank you so much for taking the time to do that! I think that is what cp and buehl have been asking me to do. I have no idea how you did that so quick! I too thought of putting the fridge there but your absolutely right it would be visible and to me obtrusive. My girlfriend just did that in her new house and kitchen...not attractive. You are looking at that drawing correctly. it is visible from the great room which is also open and visible to the foyer. So cool about the shallow pantries idea! Never would have thought of that. Yeah I too had thought about a couple chairs there on end of island. We put them there and tried it, but one of my kids said why would someone sit here when they could just sit at the table 2 steps away. Good point. It kinda just crowds the space between eat in table and island area. We all love the big table and use several times a day so dont really want to give that up unless there is some earth shattering thing we havent thought of. I've been trying to brainstorm since last august. I have a headache!

I have a kitchen where someone envisioned an island with chairs on one side. The end result is that I lost half of my undercounter cupboard space and no one ever sat there ever. I really could have used the extra space in those cupboards.

I use a Paint program on a grid downloaded from the 'net. The following changes took just a few minutes:

I moved the sink and DW over, to give you prep space in front of the window, which is not a traditional layout, but sinks are not always placed under windows these days. Clean-up takes only 10% of time spent in the kitchen, compared to 70%, or more, spent prepping. In this plan, a helper an be unloading the DW, or setting the table, while you are prepping and cooking, if dishes are kept in drawers on the island, and in the upper above the DW.

100 Square Foot Kitchen Remodel · More Info

ETA, I'm just giving you layouts with islands, to consider all the options--the original layout without the island is very functional. I'd put the trash in the prep zone, and use as many drawer bases as possible.

Mama I was thinking of turning the "island" and pushing it against the wall where you now have the narrow pantry so it becomes a peninsula. on the wall I would still do an in the studs pantry cab

Here's that option, cpartist. The only thing I don't like is that the fridge is less accessible to anyone coming from the living areas.

Agree. My thought would have been to put the fridge where you had it in the first rendition, next to DW

4thumbs

I have a kitchen where someone envisioned an island with chairs on one side. The end result is that I lost half of my undercounter cupboard space and no one ever sat there ever. I really could have used the extra space in those cupboards.

oh gosh! yeah I don't want that.

I put the fridge on the same wall as the range, although that puts it farther from the dining area. There is a pull-out pantry between the fridge and wall, and to the left, shallow, stud bay storage. That leaves space for seating at the island.

Mama goose yes I've tried to envision fridge in on back wall too...I'd be fine with that I never thought about the impact of it being further away from the dining area. Love the stud bay wall storage idea! Very clever!

I moved the sink and DW over, to give you prep space in front of the window, which is not a traditional layout, but sinks are not always placed under windows these days.

thats a tough one to imagine mama. We have lake front property and I love to be at the sink with that view as opposed to standing in front of a wall. I do see sinks in front of walls now days too. Not a big fan.

ETA, I'm just giving you layouts with islands, to consider all the options--the original layout without the island is very functional. I'd put the trash in the prep zone, and use as many drawer bases as possible.

I understand and so much appreciate all your ideas. I'm keeping an open mind. And yes trash is in prep area and lowers are all drawers per the plan with the KD.

Mama I was thinking of turning the "island" and pushing it against the wall where you now have the narrow pantry so it becomes a peninsula. on the wall I would still do an in the studs pantry cab

cp, yup had thought about a peninsula off that wall too my only fear with that is that it will cut off a very busy traffic flow from hallway into kitchen. people would have to walk past it and around it now to get into the kitchen?

Agree. My thought would have been to put the fridge where you had it in the first rendition, next to DW

Cp I hear you that little section of wall is big enough to put the fridge but in that place you could see from great room and foyer when you walk in to the house.

I'm back--while I have the file open, here's the peninsula on the other wall, extended enough to house the sink and DW, which will give you the choice of prepping facing the room, or moving along for the window view. (L)

If you don't want the seating protruding that far into the dining area, you could move the peninsula in 6-12", omit the corner susan, then turn the base cabinet in the corner to open under the peninsula. (R) I also made the peninsula 6" shorter, for a 48" walkway in the plan. (Edited to change corner option.)

The stud bay pantry is extended 6" into the room, similar to cindyandmocha's in this thread.

Click to enlarge. (Ignore the yellow flow lines--I didn't redraw them.)

Mama, I like that one.

Cp I hear you that little section of wall is big enough to put the fridge but in that place you could see from great room and foyer when you walk in to the house.

You put a panel on the side of the fridge so it looks like a piece of furniture there.

Mama I like that too and that was also a thought but those chairs would be backing up right to my dining area. I think if I had at least 3 or 4 feet I'd be good!

Cp I love the panels and will definitely do where needed but I really don't want people to walking in and see my refrigerator.

More and more I think my KD went basically to the same design is because there are not a lot of good options. My DH thinks if we stay with the basic layout we have it's known that it works well. He also thinks that by updating cabinets, hardware, countertops, lighting, adding a backsplash, install pro hood, move MW, add wine cooler, change sink and faucet. It alone would be a huge improvement. Can't say I disagree with that!

I agree. Just observe your working pattern. I truly believe the person who is doing the cooking is the best person to design a kitchen.

Also remember one important thing. Humans are very adaptable. It's how we've survived so long. However one thing that adaptability managed to do is make us believe that we have something that works well, when in reality we can do better.

For example, your island is a barrier. How much better would it be if you didn't have to walk around that small island every single time to get from your fridge to your sink? Right now you don't think it's a problem because you've adapted.

Those who have MW's over the cooktop think it's ok because they've adapted. I have one in both rental's right now. I have to reach up every time to grab hot bowls out of the MW (and I'm vertically challenged). I have adapted though so really don't think about it. However, I know that in reality for me a drawer MW works better because I'm not reaching up.

In my rental kitchen here in FL my corner butterfly sink is literally right next to the stove. There is no space between them. And to the left of the sink, is not enough space to prep. The only space to prep is to the right of the stove on the peninsula. However, I've adapted. I wash my stuff, and then carry it past the stove to the peninsula. I grab utensils and bowls from all over the kitchen since there is no place close to put most of the stuff I need. However I've adapted and now that I've been cooking in this space for several months, I tell people it's not as bad as I thought it would be.

But the reality is, that if I had a well laid out kitchen, DH and I wouldn't be constantly bumping into one another (especially at the sink) and all movements would flow better. I wouldn't be dripping water and who knows what on the floor each time I cooked. I wouldn't have to keep running back and forth between the sink and the only prep space.

So really think about whether you've adapted or if your kitchen really is the best laid out it could be and the most efficient.

If the island is the problem, would using 30" deep base cabs and 15" uppers be a solution? That gives her deeper counters for baking to compensate for the loss of the island. She doesn't need the storage she has now but she'd be able to put more into the deep cabinets, especially nice in the uppers for holding serving platters.

MaWizz, I would still recommend moving the fridge down and using a side pantry alongside the fridge, giving the microwave some space and possibly giving you more base space to add a wine cooler on the fridge wall. I didn't really understand your objection in your other thread about walking further to access the pantry from the side. It may just be a case where you've adapted, as cpartist is saying. What do you keep in your deep pantry? I kept some pans in mine and hated it because I had to remove everything to get to items in the back.

blfenton i took your advice and i have been observing our family in the kitchen. yesterday i noticed one thing that didn't work out well. dh made lunch in my prep spot at the island and decided he would just stay there and have his lunch. um no. instantly i realized that stopped everything for me. he was sent to the table to eat. lol

cp true! good points thanks :) is your place all poured?

mayflowers thanks for the feedback. never thought about 30" base!

MaWizz, yep slab is all poured. DH went over with me earlier and before he was not liking his study because he insisted it was too small. Today he thought it would be just right. LOL

I didn't really understand your objection in your other thread about walking further to access the pantry from the side. It may just be a case where you've adapted, as cpartist is saying. What do you keep in your deep pantry?

mayflowers i was just going back thru this feedback and see i missed answering one of your questions. i think it was the thread where you suggested the pantry doors be adjacent to the fridge which i love your idea for the shallow cabinets the only problem i see with that is the pantry would then be facing out to the hallway from the kitchen rather than toward the kitchen. we keep paper goods, big box stuff like cereals, bars, nuts, and snacks so we are in there daily a few times all of us. also i just wonder if it would be weird to have the hardware facing out of the kitchen rather than toward it? right now the KD has end panels on that side of pantry.

It's
been interesting to read everyone's views. I guess it depends upon
the working style each one has. I, for one, prefer little things like
a magnetic knife rack and rail for hanging frequently used items.
While not visually beautiful, I am one who likes everything
at my fingertips rather than fumbling around in drawers.

And
I still maintain the best kitchen designer is the person who works in
that kitchen. I sometimes wonder whether any of the designers
actually cook when I see these humongous kitchens where one walks
long distances from the sink, to the stove, and to the fridge.

So
I still maintain that it is the cook whose views count most. Mainly
listing what you like and don't like will help you decide upon a
design that suits YOU.