Wish I didn't learn that herbicides don't kill weed seeds

7 years ago

(Zone 7B-Charlotte, NC-fescue and/or poa annua)

I wish I never experienced the revelation that herbicides
don’t kill weed seeds.

Ignorance…is truly bliss

I am not used to failing.
At least in things garden related.
Months-weeks-days into this “careful
what you wish for” hellish turf experience, I now humbly think of myself as
Turf Jobe-

I spent weeks removing common bermuda. I spent days improving the soil with a carefully
crafted cocktail of alfalfa pellets, compost, Black Kow manure, vermicompost,
chopped leaves, crushed oyster shells, and finely chopped wood-all to improve
the sad- sack drainage in my front yard. The
drainage is much better. Thank you very
much. However, I seem to have
unintentionally gotten into the POA ANNUA business. All of the formerly water saturated areas
are now green as seedy green weeds can be. There is so much about turf management
….that is completely out of one’s control.

The good news is that I now have a posse of worms underneath
The Exclusive Poa Annua Night Club. For
you newbies, this means my soil is rocking!
There is hardly any common bermuda rhizomes left- due to my insane tenacity. I also have imagined carpel tunnel syndrome,
as my hand now resembles the claw from the Wicked
Witch of the West. I’m still crazily
wheeling around my front yard on my rolling garden bench…so my neighborhood
reputation remains in deep, deep peril.

A sliver of a silver lining…. I have found a very helpful
site-in reference to weed identification.
It is UC IPM. University
of California agriculture & natural resources. (Co-dependent, you betcha.) They have very
good pictures of hideous lawn weeds in various evil stages. The authors do a good job of thoroughly
explaining the life-cycle of said nemesis weed and provide good options, both
organically….and… in some extreme cases….chemical recommendations for the toughest
customers, such as “Dallisgrass”.

Can’t wait to battle that Be-Atch.

So, I am hoping, dreaming, willing that all this effort will
pay off in fewer weed seeds in tomorrow’s turf?

Until then, I am Yours Truly,

Bill Murray in “Groundhog Day”

P.S. If you leave a
comment, please be encouraging/gentle. I
believe we have established that this quest/or me, are rather unstable.

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Comments (8)

User
7 years ago
There are herbicides that kill weed seeds, they are called pre-emergents. They don't kill the seed per se, they kill the plant shortly after germination by inhibiting root development. Pre-emergents are the most important tool in our arsenal for weed control.
tarheelsol
Original Author
7 years ago
j4c11, Sigh, I know you are correct re the pre-emergents. I have created some pretty serious holes in the turf so I will be making a road trip to the sod farm. I realize it is not optimal to seed in spring because the roots don't get established. I have to believe it is somewhat easier than seeding last September/October with the record number of days in the 90's and absolutely no rain until we got a few inches from that October hurricane. Have you ever tried seeding in February? Also, have you ever tried Turfface for areas that hold water? Finally, what pre-emergent do you recommend when I come back from crazy town? Tenacity?
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I looked up more on Roundup Plus - I didn't realixe there are so many different formulations. Maybe what jBaker used was "Roundup Concentrate Plus" which adds 0.73% diquat dibromide to cause faster burn down or the weed. Based on the following, I personally wouldn't worry about it. It bonds so strongly to soil that plants don't absorb it and it will not wash away or breakdown. Those passionate about organics will read this differently, but you wouldn't have bought the product if you were passionately organic. I expect those who view all non-organics as poisons would want to scrape off the top inch of soil that might be contaminated and throw it away, as it will never go away otherwise. Here's some info on diquat dibromide: ENVIRONMENTAL FATE Breakdown of Chemical in Soil and Groundwater When diquat dibromide comes in contact with soil, it becomes strongly adsorbed to clay particles or organic matter in the soil for long periods of time (Koc - 100,000 g/ml). The strong chemical bonds formed by diquat adsorption to soil particles make the herbicide biologically and chemically inactive. That is, in certain soils it is unlikely to be: carried away, or leached, by water seeping through the soil; taken up by plants; broken down by microbes in the soil in a process called microbial degradation; or broken down by sunlight (photochemical degradation). Traces, or residues, of diquat have been found to persist in soil for many years with very little degradation (8, 21, 32, 36, 40). Soil capacity for adsorption of diquat is so high in comparison to the rates at which it is applied that there is little possibility that leaching or groundwater contamination will occur. Field and laboratory tests show that diquat usually remains in the top inch of soil for long periods of time after it is applied (31, 32). However, there is also evidence that diquat has the ability to eventually use up, or saturate, all the available adsorption sites on soil clay particles. Groundwater quality can be affected if soil adsorption sites become totally saturated because water moving down through the soil can carry any non adsorbed herbicide into the groundwater. More research is needed for a better understanding of the potential effects on groundwater of long- term, repeated use of diquat. Studies on the erosion of diquat-treated soils near bodies of water indicate that diquat stays bonded to soil particles, remaining biologically inactive in surface waters, such as lakes, rivers and ponds Here is a link that might be useful: Cornell - Extension Toxicology Network
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Your weeds are out of control - welcome to the club. This happens to ALL of us at one point, sometimes many points. First, don't move anything you want to keep right now - we are coming to the hottest part of the year, which is not a good time for transplanting. Second, triage what you've got. If the front is most important, spend what time you've got there. Start weeding! Pull out the weed(s) and either compost them, if you have room for a bin, or put them in the garbage. It looks like you mulched the front, so after you weed, put more mulch down - you need at least a couple of inches to make a difference with the weeds. For the hosta bed, weed there, and put in an edge of some kind to keep the grass out; it should go down a couple of inches, as grass roots will spread. That applies to all the beds - metal edging, landscape timbers, something like that - where the beds meet grass. For the former shrub bed, if all that's there is weeds, then just mow it until you have time to deal with it, or think about it. Same goes for the part you plan to expand into next year. If you have the time, pitchfork it over, pull out the worst weeds, and cover it thickly with newspaper, and mulch on top of that - that smothering will work on most annual weeds, and you'll have easier digging when you're ready. I can't see the particular weeds closely enough to identify; if there is something that is giving you fits, post a closer picture of it here and you will get help. You have the bones of a nice garden shaping up there. Maintenance is a pain in the neck, but is part of gardening, I'm afraid. Good luck, and let us know how it goes.
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User
7 years ago
I also struggled big time last year with my fall seeding for the reasons you mentioned - I'm in Greensboro by the way. Typically it goes a lot smoother, but Mother Nature sometimes throws a curveball.

I have not yet tried seeding in February, though I may give it a shot this year due to a Poa infestation. My back yard is shaded and so that will help with the heat and also with weed control, Bermuda and Crabgrass don't thrive there.

Tenacity is a selective pre-emergent in the sense that it will not affect Fescue and KBG germination, but it is also very limited in what weeds it will prevent. For example, Bermuda is not listed on the label as . You would need to use Tenacity at seeding time and every 20 days thereafter until it's safe to use a serious pre-emergent like prodiamine, typically 60 days from germination. Then apply prodiamine for the summer.

If you're not seeding, then go directly to prodiamine applied in March at the 5 month rate. It's kick-ass.
tarheelsol
Original Author
7 years ago
Thank you. I will look into it.
reeljake
7 years ago
Turface is a great product for amending soil, but most have not used it in the home lawn setting. It's hard to find in homeowner quantities as they like to sell it by the pallet & it's not cheap. All the sports fields & golf courses swear by it though
danielj_2009
7 years ago
@tarheelsol: After reading your opening post I have the distinct feeling that maybe you are not so fond of weeds. Did I read you right on that? Just curious :)
tarheelsol
Original Author
7 years ago
reejake I think I have found it locally at Ewing Irrigation. (Someone else mentioned this store in a previous post) My thought is to spot aerate the wet areas using my step soil probe. Possibly mix the Turface with compost and fill the holes. It is about $16.50 per 50 pound bag. I have already made great progress using dchall's methods so I am not starting from scratch. Do you think the Turface is worth the added effort? It is my understanding that it doesn't collapse like gypsum and keeps air pockets available for the roots.

danielj I am glad you enjoy my perverse sense of humor. I am beginning to think you guys are all too young to appreciate the 1980's classic movie "Caddyshack". It highlights how a golf course green-keeper can be driven insane in pursuit of the perfect turf. I think I will have to go back to my original goal of improving the soil and drainage. Weed eradication has eluded me and I am officially giving up.
danielj_2009
7 years ago
@tarheel: Caddyshack was right in my wheelhouse, age-wise. I have to admit, though, that I didn't see the movie when it came out (rarely went to the theater back then). Classic movie... little varmint.

Wish I didn't learn that herbicides don't kill weed seeds

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Wish I didn't learn that herbicides don't kill weed seeds

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