People also steal plants from private yards and even botanical gardens.

Yes they do, guess that I shouldn't be surprised.

I have had bad trades, but not bad checks.

I would ask for a money order.

Lots of people use pay pal but I've had two bad experiences with pay pal so I won't use them. I send money orders.

Well, fifty cents or a dollar is one thing, but almost $8.00 is a little too much to 'donate'. Still, I'd give the plant recipients the benefit of the doubt. Maybe their account got cleaned out by a relative, or a hacker, so the bank closed it and when the dust settles they will pay the $12.00 owed.

Something similar happened to me years ago. The direct deposit of Bob's salary was not credited to our account and I had $1200 worth of checks bounce all over town. It was the fault of the bank. I had to carry a letter of explanation from the bank with me to get stores to take my checks for months after that. This was before the wide use of debit and credit cards.

P.S. You're lucky the bank charge was only $4.00. Some banks charge $20 or $25 the last I heard.

I am assuming these are random people that you do not know, Pam. I had only ONE bad experience during the entire time I was shipping brug cuttings (back when I could still package and mail), but of course, most of us did reciprocal trades so no money need exchange hands. I am very sorry this happened to you, and can help you be angry if that will help.

Pam, I feel for you. It's distressing.

Thanks for the voice of reason Omar :-)

This was not a random person, it was someone who trades heavily on GW and this forum. I'll give her a chance to make it right. She approached me about a plant that I posted a picture of here.

From now on, with exception of seeds/plants already promised, I'll offer plants for pickup only! I didn't mind sharing the plants but resent paying to send them also.

I'm sorry that's happened to you when you were being generous & sharing. I am still grateful for your sharing lizard tail with me a couple of years back. Such a nice plant, yet not easy to find. It was so delightful to find someone willing to share it with me--thank you!

The past couple of years, I offered a bunch of extra plants on GW for postage. The response was very good, out of ~30 or so people, only one burned me.

I've been burned by a few others, too, over the years--some fairly substantial--big Priority boxes, full of plants--but really, very few over the years have failed to pay.

Many not only returned what I spent, they sent extra. Several people sent several times extra. This was for roses, so getting several band-sized roses for only the cost of a Priority medium (13.85) or large box (~$18), when they normally cost at least 15-20 bucks each, plus shipping is a bargain, & most people are deeply appreciative. I met a lot of neat people, got many thoughtful gifts in addition to postage in reply.

For new-to-you traders, why not just tell them up-front that you expect Priority flat-rate postage prepaid via money order? Any honest person will be happy to do so. I've taken checks & had people send cash, too (yikes!). I haven't done Paypal, but am often asked.

Even for lighter things, like seeds, you can send a Priority envelope for ~6 bucks.

I'm mostly sending out roses, bare root, & generally flat out insist that the person agree to pay for either the flat rate medium or large Priority box. Otherwise, you have to guess the postage or weigh it, etc. Sometimes, I will make an exception for a single plant or two from a reliable person & find a smaller box that will ship cheaper, but that's a bit of an aggravation compared to being able to stuff things into a standard flat rate box where you know the exact postage cost.

I'll always accommodate people I know are reliable, & with friends & regulars I just ship out asap & we just informally trade a box for a box, or if no trade is anticipated, I'll send them their postage. I email the tracking # & check it myself to see when delivery takes place.

If you want to go the nuclear option, you can post the information about cheaters on Rate & Review

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/raterev/

The instructions urge restraint & trying to work it out, etc. Things do happen in peoples' lives, packages or checks get misdirected, but real rip-off artists should be exposed.

I do make them known to my fellow traders. It's worth checking out if a requester is listed there. But the easiest thing might be to just insist on prepayment via MO. I've never had a bad check, but I have neglected to warn the person of my real name & gotten a check for my alias--my fault, but the lady was nice & resent the payment :-p

Bluegirl, thanks for your input. I knew you shipped out scores of roses a couple of years ago and wondered how that went. I guess the ones who sent extra (that was nice!) made up for the one that didn't pay. Using the flat rate boxes is an excellent idea so that you know the exact postage.

Oh, and I didn't know the rate & review forum even existed.

Thanks for the link to the rates and reviews forum. I found another negative posting for my trader.

I saw the positive feedback from you also Bluegirl! Thank you!

I
was really mad when I posted this earlier, having my hubby tease me
about taking a bad check got my ire going. I need to just let it go, not
worth my insomnia tonight.

You're so very welcome!

Ragna: Yaaassss, I was shocked & overwhelmed with the response to what were mostly common ogrs that I offered for postage only. Still, roses are a bit hard to root reliably & not cheap to buy. In addition to several extremely generous postage repayments, I've received a hand-knitted cap in *my* color, recipes, a garden planner book, handmade cards, huge boxes of plants in response, seeds, etc. One lovely lady, Phyllis, sent such an overwhelming excess of postage I returned a portion to her. So she actually studied my zone, & had a huge bulb collection drop-shipped to compensate for what she felt I deserved. Further, she's since given me a ton of bearded irises (so expensive to buy) & bulbs--what a gracious person! She was just one of the extraordinarily generous people I met in that experience. Lots of wonderful emails from fun gardeners.--the whole thing was a hoot, with only one stinker failing to pay.

Because I received such a huge response, I didn't stick to insisting on prepayment as I should have, but got only one bad person. Everyone else paid in full, or even extra, very quickly.

A general thing I've observed is many plant traders round up the figures--send $20 for a large flat-rate box, $15 for the medium. I don't expect that, but it's a thoughtful & generous response to a one-way trade & I've started doing that myself.

It was helpful to start keeping index cards on every trader & eventually typing out a list. On the list, I keep real names, aliases, addies, emails & brief comments. On the cards I keep a list of plants traded (though some folks are starting to require a notebook!) It's been very handy.

I haven't really used Rate & Review except as a reference when I get a request from an unknown person. But active traders seem to use it a lot & I've had one person complain (politely) that I hadn't positively reported her trade (I wasn't dissatisfied, I just hadn't used the forum).

I figure that if a person won't respond to a couple of polite emails, they just aren't going to do the right thing & there's nothing I can do to make them. But many active traders feel a responsibility to report cheaters. I had one trader who I had warned privately about a person who cheated me, post about her non response on Rate & Review. The folks on that forum seem to be the active traders & are very serious about reporting the goodies & the baddies.

Some folks think Priority flat rate boxes are just too expensive. They aren't cheap, but relative to the cost of buying plants & the benefits of getting good plants from reliable traders, I think they're quite fair. You can fit a remarkable amount of stuff--bare-root, wrapped in damp paper & plastic bagged--in a medium box. Like a dozen well-rooted young plants. Both the medium & large boxes come in two different configurations--a squarish box & a narrow elongate one--sometimes one will work better for your plants than the other, same priced box. Boxes are free to pick up at the P. O. or I think you can even order them on-line.

Seed traders might benefit from the little flat rate box (about $6, IIRC) or the flat rate envelopes.

Bottom line: I'm starting to require Priority pre-payment from anyone I don't know or who isn't referred by a pal.

Good luck in your future exchanges. Yeah, it's a bummer to get ripped off, but maybe we can avoid that & enjoy the pleasures of sharing with the many good folks out there :-D

I have not done much trading in the last few years, but I had many, many good trades, with only one disappointment. In that case, I was told that my plants had been shipped to me, but the package never arrived. When I inquired about the missing trade, I was given a short, curt reply...."I sent them out, sorry you did not receive them". To be fair, it may have been that the plants were truly sent, but perhaps to an incorrect address. I don't know.

Generally, I could sense from the trader's comments and questions whether they were indeed reliable. I always engaged in two or three emails prior to committing to a trade so that I would get a feel for the trader. The rates and reviews section is a very good way to make your decisions regarding a trade.

Molly

Yes, I've carelessly sent to folks I've traded with in a previous year without ascertaining that they still had the same address--expensive mistake. But traders should be polite re. inquiries. I don't consider myself an active trader, but skimming Rate & Review, I get the sense that active traders get pretty hard nosed, quickly, about insisting that they be paid & that plants/seeds be as described & properly packed. I guess good traders rightly expect people to treat them as they treat others. A few emails to establish a relationship is very helpful & often a lot of fun for trading. Prepayment avoids someone cheating on one-sided trades.

Another benefit to using Priority shipping is it's insured to $50 (IIRC) and has tracking.

If you've not used it, the tracking is remarkable--you type the # in the U.S. P.O. website & it locates exactly where the package is, e.g.:

"arrived in SA for sorting 4:30 am",

arrived in Atlanta 11:15 pm",

"delivered to doorstep 2:00 pm", etc.

A person I regularly exchange with sets up a tracking email to be sent from the P.O. with every box he sends--it automatically sends regular email updates to me on where the package is on it's journey--cool!

it happens to all of us. I have pretty much given up trading for this very reason. Mailing a box of plants for $6.95 to $19.95 gets too expensive too fast.

What can you do?

In Texas, you can send a demand letter, and if there is no response, make a formal complaint with the DA.

I would do that in a heartbeat. Why? Because this person is ruining it for the many innocents who have better gardens thanks to trading or getting plants for postage. I would suspect that if it has happened to you, there is a possibility that it has happened or will happen to others. I like Bluegirl's idea of requesting prepayment in the future for postage, but for this person who has already ripped you off, I'd go after her.

Excerpt from the Texas Penal Code

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

While I certainly don't enjoy being taken advantage of, I couldn't bring myself to file a formal complaint.

Would you really do that Lucille?

Not only was it mean spirited and against the law to do what she did, but that sort of behavior also brings harm to others not even involved in this particular transaction.

Look at the posts above, of others who have been burned and who no longer wish to share their plants. No one could blame them, yet the innocent new gardeners who would have loved some extra plants have been harmed by the poor behavior of others.

And your description of the person as someone who 'trades heavily on GW and this forum' makes it all the worse.

There are actually reasons for writing a check on a closed account: if the account was not closed when one wrote the check but perhaps became compromised after, such as when an identity theft occurs. But it that case, one has a duty to notify and make reparations.

I have limited my trading with a very few people. I had a string of less than satisfying trades after years of great trades. I now have just a few trading partners. I do not trade with ANYONE in California. I will send seeds. I send some seeds to someone who is allergic to the post office. I don't care . I like her . it is a choice I made so I do not feel screwed.

I vote you give the person one chance to make it right. If they don't then it's not like they were not warned. I mean, Really?????? What's wrong with people?

As to "what's wrong with these people?" -- I wish I knew. I had a next door neighbor who was also a friend, we did a lot of things together, but neither she nor her husband would ever return anything they borrowed or pay back any money they owed us. It was weird. I'd finally go over to their house, and smilingly get whatever they borrowed (if I could find it) saying, "I guess you're done with this now." Sometimes I'd remind her that she owed me money for something she asked me to pick up at the store. She say, "Oh I didn't pay you for that yet?" and still not pay it. They were lovely people in every other way -- so I dunno' ....

Guess you can do like the old days when people wanted money order or postal money order instead of personal check, to make sure it is real money that you're receiving.

I am giving her a chance to make it good before I leave bad feedback on that Rate and Review website. She accidentally picked up the wrong checkbook when sending the postage payment.

I've had some bad trades, matter-o-fact, I just had one the other day. I finally got a note with no apology, just an "I feel guilty" letter along with a long list of important excuses + that she had been planning to wait to send the plants next spring as opposed to early in September as we'd agreed since I'd said thats the best time to plant but now she was moving and that was no longer possible. That next spring part is what really galled me and that she was contacting me so late about it. I hadn't really given the bum trade a lot of thought, I just sort of counted it off by mid September as another "live n learn" deal and that all I was out was the time and postage from the box of plants and seeds I'd sent in August--- those add up at the Post Office by the way. The thing is, after the note of her wanting absolution and what seemed to amount her wanting me to still believe she was "considerate" I started really thinking about it and I felt like change from a nickel. The other thing is, if all those things were going on in her life, why didn't she just write in September rather than waiting til late October after I had given up and found another source for the plants she'd promised to send. I told her to keep the plants and forget the whole deal.

Making a formal complaint to the DA !! Come on guys, I DON'T THINK SO. Not for a plant trade. I wouldn't do that but I will carp if its really bad, I think I am entitled to that.

Once I got itty bitty yellow packets of chaff (? Are you kidding!???) and just a tiny amount of chaff at that. Cheapskate on Chaff. I couldn't believe my own eyeballs when it came. I carped and rolled my eyes but thats all. The worst part was I'd generously sent my last few hard to find seeds and I felt downright robbed as a result. And, like a naive sucker.

We always take a chance with strangers, thats part of the deal when its online. Sometimes it works out, some times not. One of my bestest gurl friends is wantanamara and we started out trading cactus long ago and have been trading ever since although she always has better stuff so I often feel she gets the short end but then Texas is different than Oklahoma (excuses excuses). However, I do my best and aways try to be generous.

NO NO<I am the one that shorts you!!!!! I am sitting here right now trying to think of what can I send you to even up to that huge box of seed and bluestem grasses . My best trades have been through trading relationships that have grown out of successful trades. It really helps that we are similar in our likes and love of the abuse loving natives..I I grow odd things from seeds from LindaTx and then think "Man this one is for TxR". Or I am walking out in my field and I think, man this rings a bunch of what Tx likes. I need to stop typing and go out and collect some seeds right now before the light fails. Trading is best when we think of the others gardens and not just our own. I think that is key.

NO. Not so. You even sent me 2 Moss Balls, several weeks after I'd begged for one of my very own. No one else I know would send me Moss Balls. I'm giving them a monthly rinse to keep them alive (read that online by the way) They are in a pot at the bottom of my stairs-- so weird, they're cool.

I like sending my deadheads of 'dirty' seeds to you. No one else would understand if they got that grocery bag stuffed with seeds (and leaves and stems and stuff). Ever read the rules on cleaning seeds before sending on the Trading Forum?? Thats too stiff for me.

OFF Topic----Get this. I moved the White Mistflowers you sent (I'm too lazy to look up spelling of name---Ageratum havarense or something like that) into more sun this last spring. They are still small because they weren't doing well in that dry shade in the former spot, poor things were struggling and barely living. Monarch magnet--- you got that right and didn't exaggerate one bit. Today there were 2 monarchs and one black swallowtail along with several small butterflies on one small plant.

" Making a formal complaint to the DA !! Come on guys, I DON'T THINK SO. Not for a plant trade."

I was not only the plant trade, there was a bad check involved. Or are you saying that the way you handle issues has to be the way everyone does?

Lucille, I believe I was stating what I personally would not do concerning a plant trade, the check and my jaw drop reaction to your post. You are free do what you want. If it makes you feel any better, I was out quite a bit more for postage than the OP on my trade deal gone bad recently. Concerning your evaluation about my reading skills, I'm letting that slide because I'm really not into going to battle on this subject.

Lucille,

I really get what you are saying but have you been on the bad side of a trade before? I really just wanted to vent and see if this happens to others or just to me. I see that I did ask what other folks did in this instance, but that really was a part of my venting about it.

I used to belong to a Facebook Plant Exchange group whose mission was to help new gardeners get started. Free plants for all, only postage paid. People begged for plants then neglected to pay postage and I was very trusting (and dumb). I'm not sure what they were thinking. Maybe they had a false sense of entitlement and took the 'free plants' statement a bit too far, IDK. I had to quit that group.

On the other side of that coin, I've traded with wonderful folks that were more than generous. I suppose I was wrong to bring this up. Going forward when trading with someone new I will be more cautious.

The biggest insult was having hubby wave the letter from the bank in my face asking if I was now paying people to take my plants in addition to the prep and mailing time spent :-)

Well, Pam, that really sucks. I guess it happens to everyone except maybe the stingers. I keep a little notebook with names addresses and email addresses of people who cheat me. If they try to trade with me again i just tell them no. And if I see them working a trade with someone else, I let that person know to get postage in advance before sending anything. Its been a long time, we need to get together again!

PK, Its OK to vent, I'm always drawn into 'vent posts'. Since it just happened to me, your thread seemed like it was just the place to vent mine too if misery really does love company and I've heard it does. No, it isn't just you, but maybe its just us. I was wishing I'd never gotten the excuse letter because after that I was irritated and it was in my head for a day or so. I would have been better off kept in the dark.

I don't trade much now but its not because of bad trades. I've had more good ones than bad and most people are very nice and honest on GW. Its because I am (sadly) out of space around here. I could easily make use of double the space I have. The fact is, back when I really wanted certain plants and was redoing my garden, often with plants I couldn't find otherwise, there was a lot of motivation to build up my supply of 'wampam', make the effort, take the time and put out the expense of mailing for trades and I used to enjoy the search through the trade lists, it was like treasure hunting.

PkPonder, I am usually on the home forums but perhaps some day will finish my bathrooms, doors and windows and get bored over there and spend all my time on the garden side or out in my garden. But I had a similar experience that got ugly -- and then it went public and I got chastised for saying anything because some third parties went and dug around and, after a wrong guess or two, figured out who the other person was -- so it was my fault, according to some, that a third party eventually figured it out, said so and the other person got offended. Whatever. The solution was really simple -- communicate. At least acknowledge a gift received or reply to an eventual inquiry and say things have happened (although the story above with the person moving and just blowing it off is even crazier than the tale I got).

I just find it amazing that you only paid $4 for that bad check. With all our booster group and PTA checks, we got hit with $25 to $35 fees -- and we charged them back to the check writer. They'd get hit with a fee by their bank too - that gets really expensive, Glad you weren't out more and you don't have to worry about the karma factor.

BTW, do you live in Ponder? I drive through there when I go to visit my son in college.

No, I'm not in Ponder, not too far away though in Azle. I really like ponds and water plants, that's where I got inspiration for my screen name.

I was surprised that the bank only charged us $4 too. It's the first time anything occurred like this in years of our having the account, maybe business accounts do it differently or you need a new bank. I didn't think to wonder about it, just assumed that it was a good check. Once the second check clears (I did not receive the money order that I asked for), I will be posting on the Ratings and Review forum so that I have a complete accounting of it. My bank couldn't charge this back to the owner of the account. She said that she accidentally picked up a checkbook on an account that had been closed. That is why my bank couldn't find it or charge it back to her bank.

So you are a ponder. Cute, A pond would be fun, but I would want koi and that would just be raccoon bait around here, No way to make a pond large enough not to be on a suburban lot.

Hope the second check clears without a problem. I could see how something like that could happen. I have always been careful to put old checks away -- or even shred the check and just keep the registers, but I haven't closed an account and haven't had to think about that for a long time.

texasranger2, if you want moss balls, I can send you plenty!

Barbie4me2 from Dallas was picking up some fallen ball moss at the SA swap at the park.. I guess those northerners are amazed by them. I wonder where the demarcation ball moss line is. Waco?

I always find the line to be LaGrange for moss balls when we head south to the coast. I love them too!

loreleicomal, Thanks but two balls are plenty for me. You could sell them on e-bay (laugh). Seriously, I did read people do buy them and florists really like them. Sounds like a case of one's man's trash (parasite) is another man's treasure.