What kind of magnolia?

I would consider the expected size and when you expect them to become that size. A tree which will normally require twenty years to achieve twenty feet, might not be a problem for you in five, ten or perhaps even fifteen years. If you realistically expect to still be gardening there in fifteen to twenty years, position the tree where its feeder root zone shouldn't cause problems with your established roses in that span of time. Planting them closer than that is going to create issues much sooner, which may, or may not create problems for you should you find yourself still right there, still gardening. Having to deal with trees which have become far too large for the spaces chosen, is NOT fun.

The few magnolia kinds I'm familiar with have a very superficial root system which resents any soil disturbance and WILL interfere with the rose's root system which is quite superficial also, athough seemingly less so. Just keep that in mind when you plan your planting. Having said that I admit I'm growing a rose smack in the middle between a M. stellata and a dwarf M. grandiflora and not 5 feet from either, but I would not recommend it to anyone..

I'm also growing DdB, Perle d' Or and Cl. Mrs Herbert Stevens about 8 feet from said magnolias and equal distance from a large carrob tree, 5 ft from a 30ft tall thorny Vachellia farnesiana, 2ft from a vigorous Cestrum nocturnum shrub, 5 ft from a group of 3 Viburnum opulus and an equal distance from a large prickly pear. All this in a very dry climate and sandy soil... thanks to my well water..

I'm currently planting Teas amongst olive trees and not far from fig trees. That's an iffy proposition, at best, for both roses and olive trees but there is always something to gain by experimenting; if only learning the hard way..

Thank you, guys! getting back to you both tommorrow when I'm less tired...

My luck has come from having mature trees and space between the established roots with decent soil and no competition for what little water was there.

Knowing how the roots will grow is essential. They need to be the kind (and you need to have the soil profile) that go down and then out.
In my part of the world, every time I see a thirty or forty year old tree toppled by wind and growing in wet soil, the roots didn't go down more than three or four feet. Then they hit the heavy clay subsoil.....and chose to go out rather than down.

My worst growing conditions are caused by a cedar tree that was (in retrospect) rather stunted, We put a rose bed about ten feet from it and the roses were on a watering system, and, as you may have guessed, the cedar's roots grew to that bed. Stunting the roses that grew well for four and five years. We moved the roses. The grass that is trying to re-establish there is doing much worse because the cedar roots are there and they are taking the water agressively.

A few years ago, we planted pepper trees in an area where we predicted a privacy screen would be badly needed. (We were right about that.) We sort of bemoaned the inevitable loss of sun that would occur as the trees matured.

But as our climate has become hotter and drier, we see that the roses in the tree's shady zone have benefitted. When temps are up near 100 deg., and the air is dry, roses benefit from having fewer sunny hours. (At least, here they do.)

In fact, we need a few more trees, and intend to plant some more drough-tolerant ones.

Hmmmm, magnolias? Are you talking about those southern belles Magnolia grandiflora, or deciduous magnolias like Soulangeanas? I don't know about how their roots grow, but would be doubtful about the southern magnolia in a droughty area: they come from the rainy summer south, after all. They're fine in the Po Plain, but they have deep soil there and water in the summer. I've read that magnolias are surface rooters, but don't know how that works out in practice when they're planted with roses.

I totally concur with you as to the desirability of shade. We plant and plant, but in our conditions tree growth is extremely slow, and I reckon on twenty years for even a fast-growing tree to reach tree size; twice that for the oaks. Italian cypresses grow fast for us, but I'm not sure how suitable they are for close company with roses. My preference, for quick shade, is shrubs, and then smaller deciduous trees: we're great fans of persimmons, for example, and have planted a lot of our native flowering ashes. It's a long topic; I can't do it justice here. I have a feeling that in a few decades (if there's anyone around at that point to care) we're going to have too much shade, and are going to have to start chopping things down. It will be a nice change.

P.S. How is your weather? We finally got a decent rain, about 2 1/2", but the ground was so dry it sucked it up immediately: when I checked yesterday the soil still wasn't what I would call moist and ready for planting. We have warm weather forecast for the next few days, and then a possibility of more rain. I think planting is still iffy, but certainly have plenty of cleanup I can do.

This is great! thank you, all. I'm talking about deciduous magnolias-stellata, Leonard Messel, and Susan; these are classified as shrubs by some Italian nurseries,rather than as trees (however, there are quite a few of the grandifloras around here in other people's gardens). What I want to avoid is the sort of situation described by stillanntn6b with her cedar,though the fact that none of my roses recieve supplementary water once established might be a safeguard of a sort. I Googled "feeder roots " of trees and the pictures show that these go way beyond the drip-line of the canopy,so I already have-and have had for several years, at this point-quite a few roses growing amongst the feeder roots of the mature oaks in my garden,and they all seem fine.So, I may go ahead and try at least one of them amongst the roses. The shade issue is just kind of too pressing ; I think it's worth experimenting,especially since the "trees" in question are considered by some more as shrubs.Nik, thank you so much for your list of spacing; I'll keep that in mind (even though you don't recommend it, LOL!) But I do have a volunteer tree, what I think is an orniello (Fraxinus ornus) that sprouted up smack in the middle of Baby Faurax,right in the rose garden, and I am thinking of leaving it (the orniello) there,pulling out the rose or just sacrificing it, if necessary , since it's never been a favourite and never flourished , just for the shade! And orniello gets up to 10meters x 10meters...so you can see how desperate I am (however,chopping it down if it seems to not be working out wouldn't be much of a sacrifice,since I've got so many of them) It is just so hard to estimate in advance what plants are going to do; some risks have to be run.

Melissa, we've been blessed with a second good rain on Friday. I haven't been out there yet (try to avoid going on week-ends in this period to avoid confrontation with the loathsome boar-hunting squads; twice I've had to call the carabinieri for help when I arrived at my property and found that I couldn't enter because they were shooting!!! grrrrrrrrrrrrrr) but hope to find the ground a bit more moist. I have started planting out potted roses, but have had to water them all in thoroughly.

Bart, magnolia trees are my absolute favorite and I believe you chose a few that grow similar to Japanese maples, right? They're so lovely. I love them so much I actually have 3 tattoos of magnolias! Did you know magnolias, as a species, are prehistoric and one of the oldest plants on earth? They existed before bees existed, so prehistoric beetles pollinated them instead. They are beautifully strong. I just think it is so cool that as a species they adapted and survived so much, while dinosaurs and so many other species became extinct.

In my area, with heavy clay soil, the tree roots do what StillAnn described. The surface roots make it hard for anything else to grow near them because they suck up all the water and won't leave any for other plants. But... what might work is if you put the trees on some sort of drip irrigation system so they are sure to get enough water. I think it should be about 6 drippers for each.... one about 1-2 feet from the trunk on either side and then 4 in a circle at the canopy/drip line. If the tree is well watered, the roots have a lesser chance of searching and taking water away from your roses, which would create a bit more of the problem you're trying to solve. I hope it works for you! It would look fantastic.

Also... I agree with you about this forum having the most knowledgeable and helpful experts. Now that I have discovered this forum I feel like I have a gardening advisory board!

Also... I know you already bought the trees, but I was also looking at ways to create shade and came across this idea.

Umbrella trellis: http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/2205893/umbrella-trellis-project-mexican-flame-vine

It needs some refining... but it's a good idea to create shade. You could keep the vine in a pot so it wouldn't affect the roses or easily rip it out if you don't like it. The trellis would obviously need to be made stronger, but it's not a bad idea to quickly create some shade.

Those are small magnolias as far as it goes but small in a magnolia is still 15-20 ft. or more in time. Probably best to think in terms of using them near the rose area, for early spring color while the roses are not blooming yet, rather than within the rose bed(s), among the roses.

All trees except for certain kinds growing in desert regions concentrate the majority of their roots near the surface, where the soil is best aerated. This includes those that produce tap roots or other special deep growing roots also.

The photo of 'Jane' in a mixed border at the link below shows what kind of physical and visual presence the three you have listed are all apt to develop wherever full, normal development occurs. In my area star magnolias 20 ft. tall are not rare, and there are a few approaching 30 ft.; 'Leonard Messel' is similar to a pink star magnolia and is of comparable stature; if they are still present there the Oregon State University Experiment Station near Aurora has perhaps several of the named Kosar and De Vos hybrids that one could place a chair under and use for summer shade.

http://usna.usda.gov/Newintro/magnoli1.html

Sun angles for shade.

I just remembered hearing a talk by a dedicated rose grower over in Memphis TN (Jimmy Moser) who talked about the importance of afternoon shade for his Hybrid Teas. Sun angles meant that the trees didn't have to be that close to his roses, only the shade from them.

He had pine trees presumably o the south and west of his gardens. And room in between them.

The Rodale Press sun maps for different distances above and below the equator would let you know where and at what elevation you need to have growth to give shade to a specific site in your gardens.

Ah, yes, the boar hunting squads. We get along with them okay, whether because we're here full time or because ours are just nicer guys. I haven't noticed the boars so much lately. Possibly the wolves are helping keep their populations down; though DD and I on an early morning walk saw a group of ten crossing the path above us.

Nice to hear the word "orniello" on GardenWeb! I let a lot of baby trees, mainly oaks, stay, figuring I can just re-design the garden around them as they grow: we need shade too badly to worry about little things like my plans.

I'm quite curious to hear how your magnolias do. We had a few early experiments in this line when we didn't know what we were doing; all were failures; then a few years ago began cautiously trying again. Three of our four magnolias are down in the Shade Garden, in part shade and in cooler moister conditions than the Big Garden can offer. A nameless magnolia that I believe is a Soulangeana has been in the ground a few years and last spring bloomed for the first time; then a year ago I planted a baby (I mean, six inches tall) 'Leonard Messel' and another M. x loebneri hybrid, both of which are still alive. Where did you find 'Leonard Messel'? I had to order mine from Germany; couldn't find it in Italy. DH came home this year with a potted plant of 'Susan', which is one of the few magnolias to be found locally. I have no idea where I'll put it; I do have an idea that full sun and gray clay and dry summers are a bad proposition. Perhaps there's a spot along the drainage ditch.

(Deciduous) magnolias have been one of the three great, longed-for impossibles for me here, along with blueberries and fragrant deciduous azaleas (well, throw in camelias for good measure). Unlike these other acidophile, summer-water-loving plants, there are magnolias that will grow in clay and, once established, will go without summer water. I don't think the ph of our soil is that alkaline, but the lack of organic matter could make a big difference. And that blazing sun.

Apologies to all for the thread hijack.

Once again, a hearty thanks to all. I'm glad I started this thread. Melissa, your post wasn't a hijack, IMO!!! It is very pertinent to the subject. I got all four magnolias at the new Obi store in Prato last spring. I doubt I would've ordered so many, because of doubts about their ability to tolerate my garden's conditions, but there they were sitting in the store, at excellent prices, too,and I lost all control. Yesterday I put out 2. Last fall, I'd ordered a Susan, which I'd planted out on the side of the main rose area. I had to put up a shade cloth for it, because it got hit by the worst of the afternoon sun in August and looked fried, but is leafing out again. It's with some baby cypress, but now that I have all these other magnolias, I decided to move the cypress and make a litle magnolia grove of three different types: Susan, LeonardM, and the white stellata. I'll have to provide afternoon shade, however there is a young oak that may, in time, do it for me. I also have a possibly loony idea: I planted the rambler Louis Mon Ami,but it got MUCH bigger and uncontrollable than I ever imagined; far too big for any structure that I can build. It ought to be growing into a tree. So, I'm thinking to plant a Paulownia tomentosa next to it. Those supposedly grow really fast...and since ramblers CAN handle growing near trees,hopefully the competition for water won't bother either plant too much. If this works, the combo will provide shade in the PM for the magnolias...I'm thinking of doing the same thing for my wildly over-grown Rene Andre. I don't know what I was thinking to have planted it where it is; it, too, needs a tree. So I'm thinking, instead of moving Rene (it'd be a huge job, and then, if I wanted a new rose there, I'd also have to change the soil) "if the mountain won't go to Mary, let Mary go to the mountain" as it were... what do y'all think, folks? Any chance that this could work?????????

The new magnolia Susan I planted in a less harshly lighted spot about 2 meters from another rambler (Mannington Mauve). The problem there is that the soil turned out to be pretty shallow. It's always like this in my garden, it seems: there's always SOMETHING "wrong" with every spot, but since magnolias are shallow -rooted, let's hope it'll be OK.Cori Ann, I love your Fun Magnola Facts. No, I didn't know that! However, I can't really drip water; I don't have running water out at my garden; things have to rely on rainfall. I can imagine myself giving extra water to the magnolias while they are young. Ann, I'll check out those maps..

A tree's roots are in the top foot of soil, and problems can result from normal cultivation. Arborists recommend nothing be planted immediately around a tree.

I don't see shade as the issue here; that is manageable. It's the root-zone competition that could ultimately cause problems. The roots of a tree occupy a space up to two and a half times the diameter of the canopy. They don't just stop at the drip line!

Hope you can manage to carry water while your trees are establishing; it takes a year or two but is well worth it. That grouping will be beautiful!

I planted Mme. Plantier at the very edge of the root zone of my tulip magnolia and she developed very well; they have grown up together. The roots of the magnolia are so dense now that it's all I can do to scratch in my organic fertilizer.

In the US, there are bags being used to water in young trees. This has only come to Tennessee in the past decade, maybe because the landscape industry stopped being clueless.

watering bags for trees

In Houston I saw the installation of several hundred six foot tall trees next to the train tracks at a mass of buildings custom built for a major European oil company (Pecten). They planted them in spring. They never watered them. By fall only two had leaves. That level of clueless.

Gosh, that Houston story is downright embarrassing!!! think of all the money spent on buying and installing hundreds of 6-foot-tall trees...what a pathetic waste.

I do have tanks where I store water, so I will be able to water my young trees. I'm making a point of not putting out too many new roses so that I'll be able to focus more on the trees.It seems to me that young trees require a lot more watering than do young roses.It might be worthwhile investing in one of those watering bags; I found them on Amazon but amn't sure they'll be available here in Europe.

Looking up Paulownia, my latest thought is that though it might work with Louis Mon Ami, there probably isn't enough space in the Rene Andre spot,which is also much more exposed than the LMA area. From what I read, Paulownias have the vice of being rather brittle, and so that would be another reason to avoid putting one in an exposed area.

Barbarag points out the root-zone competition issue...what about tall, narrow trees like cypress? I wonder how wide those spread?