More layouts (If we resize the pantry)

Resized Pantry 1:

Resized Pantry 2:

Resized Pantry 3:

Another option is to move the pantry elsewhere and recess the fridge so that it'll be in line with the lower cabinets.

Moved pantry and recessed fridge 1:

Moved pantry and recessed fridge 2:

Thank you for your response, Stan! Lol, that's what I told my husband. I'm glad he is able to do the work, but it doesn't do either of us any good if he does it without consulting with me first. He's now willing to change it, but only to get me to stop complaining about the layout. The only exterior wall is the wall on which the sink is. Dh has plans to vent our microwave by placing a pipe through the attic and the roof one day, though.

Here is the current layout:

Here are more pictures of the layout:

Also, is it worth removing or changing the pantry to get the layout I want? If so, should I try to get a cabinet pantry or have hubby build a new one like the current one? Below are pictures of the current pantry he built.

Are you on a raised foundation such that it would be an easy thing to move the plumbing?

Has there been any consideration of moving any of the windows in the kitchen or would it be either to costly or look awful from the outside?

What would you like to be looking at when you do your work? Is your goal to face into the other room so that you can watch the toddler?

Personally, while I like the pantry my question for you is have you found it usable? To me the space between those shelves looks like it's just a little bit short of many possibilities.

Is there a laundry room located next to this kitchen?

Would you please post a full floor plan of the area around this kitchen so we can all understand which doors are going where?

I'm not one of the layout gurus on this forum, but if it's possible, I think I'd move the stove to where the sink is located and vent the hood to the outside. Then move the sink and dishwasher under the pass through window. You could then extend the cabinets around the corner where the stove is now and have a lazy susan in the corner. I think your pantry looks very useful - wish I had one!

Don't get rid of your upper cabinets with the glass doors. They're not only attractive, but unless you have gorgeous all-white dishes and all matching glasses, and are willing to keep the shelf dusted, it will look awful. And then there's that toddler - a toddler who gets up on a counter (and they do!) with open shelving, is a disaster waiting to happen.

Practigal, here is an annotated picture of the kitchen floorplan. Alas, I do not have a picture of the whole floor plan around the kitchen, though:

Though I do dishes daily, I don't spend as much time at the sink, since I don't pre-rinse and hardly wash anything by hand. Most of my time is spent on the side with the stove. It was essential for me to have a lot of unbroken countertop space, since I bake a lot and need the room for rolling out pie crust and kneading bread. I thought it'd be a good idea to be able to do those things by the passthrough, so that i could watch TV while baking. I would like to be able to look out the window while doing dishes, but the window isn't so much as important to me for viewing as the thought about how future prospective buyers will receive it.

I have found the pantry super usable, though the shelves are a bit too shallow for my tastes and I feel that so much space is wasted.

Anglophilia, thank you for your insight! It's ironic that you mention putting the sink and dishwasher under the passthrough, as that is where they were in my original plan that my hubby axed after I bought the cabinets (I don't think he had been paying attention to me until it was time to put the cabinets in). As he put it, AAV (whatever the heck that is) are not allowed where we are. But my ultimate goal was to have it look like the kitchen from this site, until my dreams were ruthlessly crushed: http://www.themomtogdiaries.com/2012/09/coastal-farmhouse-kitchen-before-after_6.html#comment-form

I know open shelving is a disaster waiting to happen, but it looks so pretty and I get kind of claustrophobic with the uppers. With the soffit in place, there isn't much room between the counters and the upper cabinets, which is annoying. After we take the uppers down, I plan on getting dh to remove the soffit, but if I ask him to put the upper cabinets back up, I'm sure he will ultimately lose it. I do love the glass cabinet, though, and was planning on relocating the two 36" cabinets to the dining room to create a coffee bar. I have moved all of our dishes and cups into the big drawer, but if I do move them back to the glass cabinet, I'm thinking that it wouldn't be a bad idea to have them in the dining area, where we eat. Would save me from having to carry dishes from the kitchen to the dining room. I know, they're sooo far apart! Honestly, though, although the saved distance is negligible, it could be a tad bit more convenient. Or I could use the glass cabinet to create a small kitchen island. Anything, to justify removing them, without wasting money by having unused cabinets...

You need to take a step back and stop playing with the ikea kitchen planner. Get some graph paper and with paper and pencil create your floor plan and where rooms go. The floor plan doesn't have to be 100% exact. It's so we can see the relationship of the rooms. Please don't just describe it. Please show it.

Additionally make sure all the measurements are exact that you give us.

I highly suggest reading this Thread first.

As he put it, AAV (whatever the heck that is) are not allowed where we are.

What is AAV?

AAV is an auto vent (air admittance valve) for the venting of the plumbing. Normally it would go into a vent stack and out the roof, but some places allow an AAV to do it instead. It's like a one way check valve for air. The downside is that their rubber gaskets can go bad and then you start smelling waste. The more correct way to vent a remote location without access (think island sink) is what is known as a loop vent or Chicago vent.

cpartist, would a very bad drawing of the layout around the kitchen be sufficient, without measurements? I can attach a rough drawing I just whipped up now, but I won't be able to attach an exact one with measurements until later. I can also attach a drawing my husband made with measurements before we installed the kitchen. I'm not so worried that the measurements for the kitchen cabinets are exact (like, down to the last 1/8th inch), as I am worried about the aesthetics and functionality of my kitchen. Mostly, I'm just interested in where the sink, dishwasher, stove, and refrigerator should go. All the other cabinetry can be squeezed in as needed wherever they can fit.

As for an AVV, I just looked it up and I think it is an air admittance valve. He explained it to me, but it went in one ear and out the other.

Early rough measurements from dh before he put in pantry and cabinets

My (bad) drawing of our layout

Yes that helps and once again I learn something new

Not a layout person, just my personal experience. Don't put the stove at the end of a run, you need/want a landing zone on each side. Don't put the refrigerator against a wall, it will not allow the door to fully open.

zorroslw1

Thank you for your input! Definitely agree about the stove needing a landing zone on each side! I think that's what makes me hate my current layout so much- there isn't anything on the left side and where the stove meets the cabinet on the right is awkward, due to it creating a 90 degree angle that inhibits free movement. When I look at the current layout, it seems like it should be okay, but then I use the stove and just don't find it user-friendly. Also, great point about the fridge being next to the wall. If we do decide to put it up against a wall, we'll definitely have to open up it's adjacent doorway to make room for the door to open completely.

cpartist said to stop using the Ikea planner, but I used your Ikea plan to rearrange the kitchen with my Paint program. Contingent on moving the sink and DW under the pass-through, this is what I'd suggest, along with a couple of unusual small-kitchen solutions.

Anglophilia already suggested switching sides for the sink and range--you should have space for the DW, sink, and corner susan under the pass-through, with either a 24" drawer base on the perpendicular wall, or a 21" base with space to add a pull-up/fold-down wood counter piece. The folding piece would overlap the DR door, but it would extend the counter for prep and rolling out dough. There is other access to the DR, so until you finish prepping and fold the counter down again, everyone can go around. I have two of these counter pieces in my house (not the kitchen), and I used the inexpensive hardware (ap $17.00 each IIRC). plllog used much more sturdy and expensive hardware to add a fold down counter to her island (you can do a search on her kitchen).

I'd leave the fridge beside the pantry, but pull the cabinets beside it out flush with the box. If you use 18" cabinets on each side of the 30" range, you have 8" to spare, so I'd pull the cabinets out 6". Yes, that means you lose 6" on the exterior wall, but you gain a lot of counter space for appliances and prep beside the fridge. I didn't include upper cabinets, but I like the glass door cabinets.

mama goose_gw zn6OH thank you for taking the time to draw out this layout and for your very creative thinking! I'm not too sure about pulling the cabinets out 6", though, as I'm pretty short at 5'2 and it'd be difficult for me to reach towards the back. Also, that would be more money, as far as our butcher block counter tops go and also would result in a seam. We could always extend the whole wall out, but I wouldn't want to do something so permanent and it would also block part of the window. The fold down counter is a very interesting idea and I might have to consider it. Still not sure we'll be able to do the sink and dishwasher under the passthrough, but we're looking into the loop vent doc5md mentioned, as that's the layout I really want.

Extending the whole wall out would not give you any advantage--I was trying to find a way to increase your counter space, and since you can't go wider because of all the doors, I was suggesting adding depth. I pulled the cabinets on one wall in my kitchen out a few inches, to provide more space in front of my counter top MW and a hutch-type cabinet stack.

I guess I'm not clear on what components you want to keep and what you are willing to replace (other than appliances and the pretty sink, of course).

In the meantime, I found a pic of plllog's fold down counter:

plllog's finished kitchen

GW discussions--deeper counters

Would you be willing to close off the door to the living room and hallway? And just have the door from the dining room as the only entrance from the rest of the house to the kitchen? It would make it so much easier to do a decent layout. I personally wouldn't see limiting the kitchen access as such a problem (especially with the pass-through), but it would mean going through the DR to get to the back door or basement.

cawaps thank you for the idea. I had thought about moving the doorway, but I don't think I'd want it completely gone, as I'd have to go into the dining room just to get to the front door if someone comes over and I'd rather not want the kitchen closed off any more than it is (I had wanted an open kitchen, but it would have been a process, since the one wall is load-bearing).

So you have two doors from the kitchen into the living dining area… Do you really need both doors?

I think the large problem is the two doors. The one to the basement and the one to the outdoors.

Do you need the pass through?

I'd prefer option Resized Pantry 2, with more cabs b/w the sink and the range to give you a larger prep area and a wider doorway to the DR, so the fridge door can open pass 90 degrees. Not sure about where the uppers would go, though. Maybe you can keep the uppers you currently have on the left wall and add some shelves over the DW for your most frequently used plates/glasses.

I am not a design guru but I do have 2 observations to offer -- based on my own experience, walking an extra 6 feet or so to go to the front door (by going through the DR which is what I have to do) will take only a few secs. I have to answer the front door only a few times a week; do you have that much occasion to answer the door from the kitchen, that you would rather save the 5 feet of travel instead of having a (hopefully) more functional kitchen?

The other is that I can completely understand the desire to have a pantry but the one you have now really is not an efficient use of space. Perhaps there could be options for using 1 or 2 narrow pull-out pantries, perhaps flanking the frig, or a between -the-studs cupboard on the basement stairs or DR wall?

Here is another thought: is there any possibility of moving the back door into the basement stairwell space and reorienting the basement door into the dining room? I will try to find a picture of what I am thinking -- but it would be sort of putting the basement door on the DR wall, step down to a landing, back door on the landing directly across from the DR door. It would depend on if you can drop the back door down a bit (like if you currently have a step down to the yard) and the angle of the basement steps.

Just some thoughts.

I absolutely would not get rid of that door! You want to keep your young children out of the dining room as much as possible, and having them coming in from back yard dirty and heading through your dining room would be awful. She needs those doors. I think the pantry is great - it's very much like the one I had in our first house - SO useful. It will hold extra cereal, snacks, cans and even extra dishes and glassware. Leave it alone and concentrate on moving the sink and dishwasher to beneath the pass through, and moving the stove to the outside wall. That will gain valuable counter and cabinet space for you. Keeping the job at a manageable size means it might actually get done.

Thank you sena01 and everyone else for your responses! Sena01, that layout is actually the layout my husband likes the best, so we might go with that one if we can't put the sink and dishwasher under the passthrough.

It's true that we don't need both doorways, but we live in a neighborhood with mostly elderly people who would value convenience and function over aesthetics and lots of counter/cabinet space, so we have to keep that in mind, since we don't plan on living in this house forever. Therefore, we are set on keeping both doorways. We live in KY in a small and old middle class neighborhood with 80% elderly people who have not made any updates to their houses (the lady from whom we bought the house was the original owner with her husband, who had died in 86. She just died last year... at 106 years old; she was 105 when we bought it). So, people who look at this neighborhood aren't expecting an updated kitchen with tons of space, which would just be an added bonus, but probably would value the practicality of having two doors in the kitchen, especially one into the dining room so that they can watch their kids at the table and so they don't have to walk around from the door to the hall while carrying hot plates and pans to the dining area. It also is convenient, as I can sit my toddler in her high chair at the table and keep an eye on her from the kitchen, whereas I wouldn't be able to see her at all from the kitchen unless I left it, which could end in disaster. Seconds DO count when your toddler is leaning back in her chair and you have to catch it before it tips over (not that I'd be able to see, though, if the dining room were closed off). I just feel very nervous about the whole idea of closing that doorway off and think it'd be a very bad idea, especially in light of how I use that space. Besides, I'd rather my kitchen be more open, not less - I would actually prefer to remove that whole wall entirely and have a layout more like in the following pictures, which would make me more than happy!:

raee_gw zone 5b-6a we actually have talked about moving the basement and backyard doors to the dining room or elsewhere in the house. Dh says he could technically move the doors anywhere in the house, if I wanted them to be moved, but moving both would be a huge and expensive project that would take longer than we're willing to commit. Also, I don't think moving them would be necessary to get a good layout. I love the layout in the pictures above and would be happy with that, as long as I have cabinets along the wall with the passthrough for a work space. We would probably need to tear out the pantry and put one elsewhere (a pantry is essential for us, especially since we plan on having more children). The passthrough window is not essential, but after having to redo it because he had forgotten how short I am and then because I wanted it to be wider, dh would probably divorce me if I asked him to remove it haha. Yeah, I'm not even going to open that can of worms and am just happy he is willing to make any changes to the kitchen!

I really like sena's plan, if making the pass-trough narrower is a possibility. However, I'd keep the pantry as is--it will give you a little more space between the open DW door and the cabinet corner, in case someone is trying to slide by.

And, again, you could pull the cabinets beside the fridge out flush with the fridge box, to provide deeper space.

Oops, I didn't see your latest post. Maybe filling in the pass-through with some display shelves on the LR side would work? Does DH have some bowling trophies he'd like to showcase? ;)

Honestly, though I know he was doing it as a favor to you, I think the pantry is the elephant in the room. You'd be better off with a narrower pantry on the side of the fridge and use that space where the pantry is now for counter area.

Anglophilia thank you thank you thank you! My mom brain is going "uh..." to some of the suggestions. We have to make a compromise between aesthetics and functionality when it comes to having kids in the house. My daughter loves playing outside in the hose and comes in the house dripping wet and muddy constantly and the dog is just as bad (which is why I would never do wood or laminate in our kitchen!). The pantry is a lifesaver, as grocery shopping is horrible when your toddler decides to throw tantrums because you won't let her eat the bananas before buying them or said no to junk food, so I stock up when I go grocery shopping, lol. Thank you for your great advice! And I agree- I think once the sink and stove are moved, the kitchen will be fine. I'm not expecting perfect, fancy, nor definitely expensive, but functional and nice looking works for me!

mama goose_gw zn6OH I like your idea and would not have thought about the dishwasher door in that placement so I'm glad you did! We actually do plan to put shelves in the small passthrough opening, but they won't be sporting bowling trophies or anything sports related, lol! ;) I was thinking on the lines of candles and other stuff, though not sure what else.

cpartist you couldn't be more right about the pantry being the elephant in the room! It is the one thing that makes so many layouts not work and brings me to the verge of tears whenever I think of that fact. So many layouts are not possible simply because of it and I wish he had given me time to fully plan the kitchen before putting it in, especially since I had insisted he spend the month before we moved in refinishing the floors instead (it had been covered by carpet for goodness knows how many decades) and wait to do the pantry later. But nope, he did the pantry first- spent so much time getting it perfect that he was unable to do the floors until a year after we moved in (that was not an easy time!). I would still like a pantry, just smaller and probably in the corner of the wall connecting to the dining room or along that wall. I would actually prefer a pantry cabinet, since I'd be able to move those, instead of creating yet another obstacle.

As mentioned, i think the pantry as it is now is the elephant in the room. It's large but inefficient.

I would build a smaller one or use a cabinet pantry. Additionally I would build narrow shelving into the wall separating the dining room.

I also moved the sink/dw down more towards the door so you have more space between the sink and stove to prep.

The other issue is if you do the fridge like sena and mama show, you need enough room to open the door completely.

first photo is changes and second is narrow pantry space within wall.

Here's a better photo of the stud wall storage

100 Square Foot Kitchen Remodel · More Info

Ooh, I'm a big fan of stud bay storage, especially in an older home, but I like the wider opening between the kitchen and DR, too. On both sena's plan and the variation I posted, the stub wall ends behind the fridge door, so I don't think opening the door will be an issue.

romaine, I would have made the opening wider, but I left a remnant of wall in case you need space for light switches or an outlet.

Omgosh, cpartist, I love that stud wall storage! Such a neat idea that I'll definitely be passing along to my husband to see what he thinks. Even if we're not able to do that in the kitchen, I want that somewhere! If we move the fridge to the one wall, we'd probably have to remove part of it to allow the fridge door on that side to fully open. Right now, though, I think these are my top two layouts:

It's not necessary that the stove be on an exterior wall, since husband said he can vent it anywhere, so that opens up more possibilities. He's not too sure about the fridge being so close to the back door, but that was the original placement of the old fridge and I don't think it'd be terribly bad. Of course, it's ironic that the placement I like now is very similar to the original layout, which hasn't gone unnoticed by dh lol.

Original layout:

Good thinking, mama goose_gw zn6OH! I am bad when it comes to thinking of issues like light switches, outlets, plumbing, studs, walls, etc. I do love that layout and it'd definitely be a top choice, if getting it were worth the argument that would occur if I suggest modifying the pass-thru in any way. I brought it up and husband was all for it and liked it the best, until I said we'd have to close up part of the pass-thru...

It's often a compromise--I hope you and he can come to an agreement that makes both of you happy, and also gets you a more functional kitchen. My late husband hated home improvement projects, often argued that what I wanted couldn't be done, but when the projects were finished, was happy to admit I was right. ;)

mama goose_gw zn6OH your late husband sounds exactly like mine! His favorite phrase is, "it can't be done," which is the most annoying phrase ever! Me, I'm like, if you pay enough, anything can be done. Of course, since we can't pay anyone, I'm at his mercy, but it'd be nicer if he could see my vision rather than using that as his default saying when he doesn't want to do something and it's not like I'm not going to look it up on google to see if it can be done anyway. I think we have reached a compromise- he has been researching the loop vent thing to move the sink under the passthrough and said he'd even resize the pantry, but he said he absolutely will not modify the pass-thru. Not because it would be time-consuming or difficult, but just to make a point. I'm still waiting for him to admit I was right about everything (except the vinyl tile floor, ugh).

if you look at the two you like you still don't have prep space. Prepping is normally done next to the sink. A and I thought you couldn't move the sink to the pass through wall

He initially said we couldn't move the sink due to the AAV prohibition here, but he's been looking into the loop vent and says he might be able to do that. No promises, though, so I have the second layout as backup and that one would definitely give me lots of prep space, since I am used to not prepping by the sink (prepping by the sink actually seems weird to me). As long as I can have a decent amount of counter top space to roll out pie crust dough, I think I'll be able to manage. Not ideal, but doable.

Since you have an active kid and plan to have other(s), maybe it would be better to have a U-shaped kitchen and avoid sink/range on different counters. Also, traffic from the back door to the LR/hall wouldn't pass through the working parts of the kitchen.

sena01 I feel like crying. That is actually the layout I really want and wish I could go back in time to get it! My favorite kitchen layout is u-shaped and I love the pantry placement and moving the door over. I had suggested all of these ideas to hubby a while ago, but by that time the pantry had been built and he wasn't willing to get rid of it. I so want it though, as it'd be perfect. Why couldn't I have found you before we started renovations??? I should have acknowledged that my planning skills sucked and just asked about layout designs as soon as we bought the house.

I live in KY, too! I also have two dogs and mud from time to time (usually in the spring before the grass comes back). I can promise you the very best kitchen floor I've EVER had is a hardwood floor with a high gloss polyurethane finish. The high gloss is the secret. Put a "Water Hog" floor mat at the back door - it works wonderfully. It's SO easy to keep this floor clean.

If you live nearby, send me a private email and I'd be glad to come by and give you my "eye" - no charge!

Wow, Anglophilia what a generous offer! I have just the one, big furry collie, but we have plans to get at least one more dog, so I'm so glad to hear that about the hardwood, as that's my favorite kind of flooring! We have the original hardwood throughout the whole house and I love it, especially since it is not phased by our dog's claws, which we hardly ever trim. We have not seen any scratches whatsoever and it does see a lot of liquid spills, which also doesn't bother it (not even when my daughter used to poor out the dog's water when she was younger). Ideally, I would love to find flooring that matches the rest of the house, but I'm not sure if that's possible, since it's from the 1950's. Maybe I can find some reclaimed red oak hardwood somewhere... Would you happen to know of a place or should I start raiding abandoned homes, haha?

Does hubby do any of the cooking? If not, I would think he'd want to make you happy in your kitchen. You're the one who has to deal with it on a daily basis, and much as you are happy he gave you the pantry, it seems odd that he did it without consulting you. I would think that if you're the main cook, he would have asked your opinions first.

Maybe if hubby sees how truly unhappy you are with the arrangement he'll give in and "allow" you to have your U shaped kitchen? I agree it would be the best version.

The only question is can the door be moved to the other side of the wall?

cpartist no, hubby doesn't do any cooking, as he leaves the kitchen a complete disaster, uses a hundred dishes, and always manages to use the wrong pots or pans, so has been permanently banned from using it. You would think he wouldn't care what I wanted done with the kitchen, but he is definitely opinionated. He is sweet, though, and did the pantry as a surprise for me, because he thought it'd make me happy. That's what makes my situation so difficult, because I feel bad and a bit selfish for wanting to tear it out. Again, the u-shape is out, because he has set his feet against changing the pass-through. I also don't want to hear another rant about how much he paid for the header beams (apparently they're very expensive) and how he's not moving them ever. Maybe I could convince him to turn it into a doorway and close up the other doorway, but even with the pantry removed, I think it would leave less room for cabinets than I have now. Do you think that would be a good option nonetheless?

Thanks to everyone for your wonderful help! Hubby has seriously been researching plumbing and piping, and it looks like he is going to move the sink and dishwasher under the pass-thru, so I have finally decided on a layout that will work in our kitchen! It'll be a while (probably not until late fall, early winter), but I'll try to post pictures when he's all done. Thank you all so much again and for taking the time to help. You are all so amazing!

I know that this is a really small kitchen, but given the politics, it might be easier to just add a teeny prep sink to the far right counter as you face the pass-through and swap the location of the fridge and stove and leave everything else as it is... You could even add a pull out or pull down cabinet to the right of what would be the new fridge location so that you could get some additional storage there as well.