Here are a few more of the babies:

- Alex

Hi Alex,

Joseph does discuss Violas briefly on pages 9-10 of his book.

The book, Breeding New Plants and Flowers, by Charles W. Welch, has a section on Pansies and Violas. I will try to insert a link here to that section in the current edition (2012) on Pansies and Violas

I have the old first edition (2002). Cross pollinating pansies is a bit tricky, in that you have to remove both the petals and anthers to expose a naked stigma. If this link isn't sufficient, just get on Amazon and do a search for "Breeding New Plants and Flowers". I don't know if the new edition has any new material on Pansies and Violas, because Amazon's Look Inside feature just shows the first page of the section (chapter), which seems to be identical between the two editions. However, the index in my first edition 2002 begins on page 142, the same as the 2012 edition. so there probably isn't a lot of new material in the new edition.

Your posted pictures show that you don't have nearly all of the Pansy colors, and there are very many cultivars of Pansies available, which have a complete, and I mean complete, color range. (And some pansy blooms can be very large as well.) Pansies are one ot the few flowers that have all possible human viewable colors, including the basic Red, Blue, and Yellow, and all the crayons in the big box of crayons. I wish that zinnias had such a good color range.

I considered breeding Pansies, but they simply weren't tall enough for me. I don't like to stoop or kneel to work with a flower. I don't work with the lower varieties of zinnias for the same reason. And Pansies don't like our hot Kansas weather.

I hope you get some other responses to your message here. But do check out Welch's book. It does have enough info to get you off to a good start.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

ZM - thanks for the info! You're right that Joseph makes mention of violas right at the beginning of his book - just a teaser intro, which had me wanting to immediately jump him with questions on your thread - LOL. Decided this was not polite - ha! And didn't want to appear to be a stalker by messaging him out of the blue. Hoping he might look in here and make a comment. (Hint hint - if you see this, Joseph).

Took a look at the Welch book - the bits that they allowed me to see were helpful; will probably acquire that book as well since the price is acceptable. No mention of cosmos or papavers in the index - two of the other flowers I'd be interested in hybridizing.

After reading the Welch segment, I'm wondering if somehow I'm not closing the stigma as I'm trying to put the pollen in? Think I need to get down very close with Optivisor on and maybe even a magnifying glass in my hand just to see what's what. Will post more later.

Thanks for being my only commenter - LOL.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" No mention of cosmos or papavers in the index - two of the other flowers I'd be interested in hybridizing. "

I haven't seen any books that cover breeding cosmos or poppies, but you might resort to an internet search. This is one "hit" I got with a preliminary search for hybridizing poppies. Cross-pollinating Poppies

Finding info on breeding cosmos is a bit harder, because of some weird animal/cosmos thing. I did find this link: Interspecific cosmos hybrid

Those were just preliminary searches, one with Yahoo search and one with Google search. There are lots more potential searches for both poppies and cosmos.

ZM

Hi again Alex,

I should mention one cultivar of cosmos that you might want to grow, because it has such a unique flower form. That is Cosmos Sea Shells

I would like to get some zinnias to look like that. Crossing Cosmos Sea Shells with other cultivars of Cosmos could yield some interesting F1s, and some even more interesting F2s.

"... - just a teaser intro, which had me wanting to immediately jump him with questions on your thread ... "

Feel free to ask Joseph questions about cosmos or poppies or whatever on "my" thread. That thread is for the benefit of any of the participants, and certainly any plant breeding question is appropriate. (Or feral cats or locusts or whatever.)

ZM

ZM -

...certainly any plant breeding question is appropriate. (Or feral cats or locusts or whatever.)

How gracious of you! Let's throw in the kitchen sink and have done with it - LOL!

Yes, I've grown some of the sea shell cosmos - not sure why I no longer have evidence of them in seeds saved. But possibly that particular gene got supplanted by the more common along the way. I have had an interesting inner shortened flare (sort of the equivalent of a zinnia scabious formation, but not as dramatic) show up which might be related or maybe that's a result of bee-crosses with doubles which I've also grown. Was disappointed this year to see a reversion to the plain in almost all the cosmos this year except for one beautiful picotee. Just went to find a pic, and surprised myself when I saw that I hadn't photographed it. Will do so later. Anyway, this is one of the effects I hoped to see again this year - a bi-color from last year:

Checked out the two links you included. The poppy one I hadn't seen, but had already been implementing some of the techniques from other reading. Had some absolutely stunning p. somniferums this year that I hope to get some nice crosses from, aiming for color and shape mixes.

I'm approaching these other hybridizing gigs casually. Can't see getting heavy into them when I'm fairly heavily invested in the zinnias. I only have so much space and time. And energy. Too bad I didn't get into all this some 20 years ago when I was Wonder Woman - able to leap tall trellises in a single bound. Sigh.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

That one is spectacular. How long does a cosmos bloom last after it opens out?

ZM

Hi Alex,

Wow! It is amazing that those three Cosmos blooms are on the same plant. They look totally different, and each good in its own right. You already have some very impressive Cosmos. All of those "looks" in cosmos are new to me -- I have never seen Cosmos like that. You are already a Cosmos breeder. Who knew.

Now, if it were possible to cross those with Yellow Cosmos, you would have a color range competitive with zinnias. There must be some reason why those two tribes of cosmos haven't been intercrossed. Possibly different chromosome numbers.

ZM

The link you sent me is about doing just that; but the technical aspects were more than I was interested in delving into at this time. It'll be there later to read. The yellows and oranges are c. sulphureus while the pinks, reds and whites are c. bipinnatus; but there is another yellow bipinnatus I've seen offered that I'm tempted to buy: cosmos - Yellow Garden

Hi Alex,

I didn't know there was a yellow bipinnatus. Crossing with that puppy would surely be an interesting thing to do. It is a kind of weak yellow, like the yellow petunias, but, hey, its a bipinnatus. Just begging to be crossed. I assume the Sea Shells are also bipinnatus. Hopefully.

ZM

Yes, the seashells are bipinnatus. OK, you've talked me into it! I'll be buying the Yellow Garden or whichever yellow I can find this next season. I've seen them for some years now in catalogs, so I'm sure I'll be able to locate some seed.

ZM - the answer to your question: how long does a cosmos bloom last? About 5 days, give or take.

Hi Alex,

Well, that is longer than a four o'clock or a morning glory. One of the reasons I like zinnias is that their blooms can continue to develop over a period of weeks. I guess a pansy bloom also lasts only a few days.

Possibly about the same amount of time as a cosmos. I have been surprised as well, that my pansies have continued to bloom through this hot summer. I would have thought they'd be long gone by now.

But, yes, I'm with you about the longevity of the zinnia blooms. And, as you say, they don't just last, they develop and change over the weeks. The height of an individual bloom's beauty may not be until it's already been open more than a week, and after that the mellowing-out process can be just as beautiful to me.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" ...they [zinnias] don't just last, they develop and change over the weeks. The height
of an individual bloom's beauty may not be until it's already been open
more than a week, and after that the mellowing-out process can be just
as beautiful to me. "

Well said.

ZM

So Did You Have ANY Luck With The Pansies Alex?

Thanks

Ninecrow - hello there across the Pond!

Did I have any luck with the pansies? - well, yes and...I don't know. I got some beautiful offspring from the two generations after the original solid yellow and solid purple parent plants. None of the offspring were solid colors, and none of them were yellows, though at least one of the "almost whites" had a yellowish tint when freshly bloomed. And, as mentioned, mostly the blooms I attempted to hand-pollinate did not make it to harvest stage - but a handful did. Plus I gathered a great plenty of seed that was self or insect-pollinated. I feel assured I won't be disappointed with whatever I get, though I am crossing my fingers that I see at least a few outstanding plants with either solid colors, more noticeable ruffles, and, I hope, either a very white or a very dark - almost black - purple color.

I did go ahead and purchase the book ZM had mentioned above: Breeding New Plants and Flowers, by Charles W. Welch. Have not read it yet, but will take the time over the winter to do so. I'm sure I will try to do some more crosses with pansies next year. And with the petunias, poppies and cosmos. If nothing else, I can selectively save seed from favored plants, which is a form of breeding as ZM so kindly pointed out.

I will most likely add to this thread next year when I start seeing results of my saved seed. Thanks for asking!

- Alex

Well! I have had some nice hybrids this spring from last year's batch. Here are some results:

I included the insect/slug damaged pic since the bloom is close to true blue, and this last not quite focused pic since the bloom exhibits more ruffling. I will add these last three additions which I purchased commercial seed for this year to expand the gene pool somewhat - a true blue, primrose and Halloween black:

Not sure I like the black; the seedlings that came out dark purple were prettier to me, but these will add interesting variation for sure! Next year I may have to add a rose shade or extreme ruffling.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

Save seeds from the black one. It's most unusual. I would love to get a zinnia that color.

ZM

ZM - I'll definitely save seed, and also try to make some crosses with the blacks. I was intrigued myself and wanted to see just how black they'd be. The answer is: very black! Many you can hardly see a purple sheen on them. But...somehow they just don't appeal as much in person; maybe I simply don't have the right setting for them. Plus, they are smaller than the others, so that they don't seem to fit in a mixed setting. Though, contrary to my reaction to the black pansies, I am even more interesting again in trying for some of the "black" petunias. :)

- Alex

Follow-up time for the pansies - season 2018!

The True Blues x the Halloween blacks yields some interesting results, many of which looked like this:

Seed gathered from the True Blues were pretty much like their parents, retaining the blue:

While seed gathered from the Halloween blacks, were generally black and smaller blooms:

The Primrose was still primrose:

The "Almost white that turns lavender with age" still fit it's name:

There are variations, but I'll wait till later and post them in the comments.

Alex

Here are some of the variations:

More later -

Alex

I know this is an old post, but am wondering what specific technique ended up being a success in hand pollinating the pansies / viola?

Hadn't been on here for ages and ages, but apparently still have this post tagged to send me an email. The answer to your question is: I never came up with a truly reliable method for hand pollinating. It seems fairly straightforward by appearances; I mean, that you can clearly see the pollen when it's ready (though it helped to have some magnification), and it seems clear where the opening is to insert your pollen-laden brush, but ---- !

Still do not know why I so often would not get a pod to set, while right next to the hand pollinated blossom there would be self-pollinated plump pods happily ripening to prove that it was me and not the plant that was the problem. Perhaps I was too forceful? Or not getting the brush in far enough? Or...who knows?

Still, there were some successes, if never a full normal-looking pod. And the plants continue to produce interesting variations, from which I gather fresh seed. This year I have added new stock: Raspberry Sizzle and Lemonberry Sizzle. And perhaps I will try to make some crosses again. :) Good luck to you!

Appreciate you replying to this old thread samhain! I will keep trying various methods. I have used a q-tip and next will use tweezers.

I noticed that the yellow viola seem to more readily pollinate from the insects, while the purples and whites go untouched.

The sizzles sound so much fun Happy gardening!

Can you email me any pictures of your Chateau flooring?? beccabols@yahoo.com

Sure! just sent you some pictures