I can't see any way to do what you want without replacing the light switches on the loads you wish to control to some type of automated system. Though it is hard to find details on Greenswitch, it appears it was just a proprietary wireless technology - or perhaps it used z-wave. Anyway, I don't know how many loads you are looking to control so it's hard to tell if $600 is within reason or not. I do know that every few months or so Insteon has a 20% off sale - and they have bulk packages of switches which can bring the cost down to close to $30.

Thanks freeoscar, we will price out Insteon and see what the total is. Thanks for the heads up to look for 20% off. There will be many loads as I am talking about a switch that turns off all the overhead and sconce lights in the house.

Carol

This idea would normally require all lights on one floor to be on the same circuit. Due to code requirements, most electricians have to worry about capacity and are limited to wiring for incandesents, although in the real world it is not a problem with CFL and LED lights. Absolutely not feasible to put all the lights in the ENTIRE house on one circuit you would need at least one switch per floor. The main run for each floor would have to go from the breaker to the proposed switch you want, then to the respective floor's switches and lights. That is if you could find an electrician that would do it, which you wouldn't due to code, perhaps if you had lights with only LED built in.

Recent innovations have started using smart home technology to control items in the house. This is a more realistic way to control all the lights in the home. Most likely requires all your light switches to be replaced with smart home switches.

Vith,

Thanks for the reality check on this idea. We had some electricians start the electrical rough in for us, and DH is finishing it. The electricians will be back to inspect his work (as will the inspector) and complete the tie in to the breaker and any other tricky jobs DH needs. We asked about this whole home switch and they said it could be done, but it would be take a while. I certainly would not mind having a switch for each floor vs a whole house switch. If we decide to go ahead with this idea, we will have to cost out the difference of runs from breaker, kill switch, individual switches and lights vs a smart lighting control system. So far, our research has suggested lighting controls are very pricey. We are planning on using LED retrofit bulbs, but the fixtures are not LED fixtures. We certainly don't want to overload circuits or do anything that is against code.

The problem with the way Vith described it (if I understand what he's saying) is that if the 'kill switch' was OFF, then you wouldn't be able to turn the lights on anywhere else. I'm pretty sure that would be a code violation due to safety. If you turned off the kill switch and then your husband came home, he'd have to stumble through the house and up the stairs in the dark.

The only way to do this is the automated systems using wireless technology or whatever that people mentioned above. And it isn't cheap.

Sounds to me ,its a grow house!!

Sounds to me ,its a grow house!!

Why? That's just a bizarre claim. Especially because a grow house wouldn't want to EVER turn the lights off. No light == no growing

Another option (other than just training yourself to turn a light off when you leave a room) would be to install motion/occupancy sensors instead of switches. Then they'll just turn off by themselves and you don't have to have a master switch at all!

well, if you do decide to go with insteon, monoprice has an amazing deal right now on a starter kit - includes a hub, camera, thermostat, motion sensor and another couple of items for $99. That's extremely cheap.

@greg: Thank you for your comments. Great point about needing to turn just one light on after the main switch was turned off. We certainly don't want that. Thanks for letting me know that you think we need to look at an automated system and to brace for big $$$. I think a few occupancy lights in the kids' room and hallways, etc is a much more economical way to go. We have those at work, and they are forever turning off when you are in the room LOL so they would save energy.

@jack -- No were are not operating a grow house!!! I hope you were joking!

@freeoscar: Thanks for the tip on insteon package price. If we went with just regular switches (and 3 way ones where needed), what would I need to do to pre-wire to add a system like Insteon (which I assume is wireless) at a later point (after drywall stage). Walls are open now, and we may want to add more smart switches later.

Carol

you need to make sure that all the light circuits are wired with a neutral (from my understanding this is code now, but you want to confirm that is what is being done). Also, use plastic, not metal boxes (so as not to interfere w/radio waves), and extra deep boxes because most of the 'smart' switches are deeper than a normal switch. That will cover your needs for almost all of the systems out there (insteon, z-wave, lutron, various upb switches as well).

Also, you might want to include wiring for any keypads you might put in - at a minimum I'd say one near the exterior doors and in the master bedroom.

@freeoscar,

So, we already have some of our switches rough wired. They were done with metal boxes. However, if we were to install an Insteon or equivalent smart switch, would that not be a separate box vs the ones that hold the line voltage switch wires? I Or does this switch install within another standard switch?

Carol

The smart switches (really dimmers mostly b/c a main benefit of automated lighting is to set scenes) are just normal switches, but with added microchips. Unless you have a multi-million dollar house with a high end system (Like a Lutron Homeworks), which are professionally installed, you really want the lights to mimic 'dumb' switches as much as possible.

So it will mostly look like a regular system, but with some added keypads which are able to perform the added functionality - such as a a whole house on/off, or a dining mode, or a movie watching mode, or a 'just came home to an empty house' mode or a nighttime feed the baby mode, or a downstairs mode (i.e. everyone is downstairs so turn off all the upstairs lights).

I also find it useful for areas like a kitchen which have several different lights (recessed, island pendants, kitchen table, sink, undercabinet) so that I can just press one button and turn them all off at once (or all on to a set level).

I haven't fully designed our system yet, but I'll put in a keypad at the front door, door to garage, master bedroom, kitchen, family room and basement.

Then of course there are all the time-triggered events, or occupancy driven events you can automate if you'd like, but that's a whole other topic.

Freeoscar,

I appreciate your help. Sounds like you are very knowledgeable on automated lighting. Please clarify what I do in my situation (stage of our build) to ensure we can add Insteon or equivalent RF/wireless lighting controls later. Most of the lights and switches on the main and basement level of our house have already been roughed in (most of them are 3 or 4 gang ones). Do I pull those wires out of the metal electrical boxes (standard ones) that they are in now and replace in deeper plastic gang boxes?

When it comes time to replace the standard switches with the smart switches with the added microchips, do I remove one of the regular switch covers from the gang of switches and put the smart switch in it's place? The load (lights) that the old switch was operating will now be operated by the new smart switch and all the other switches in the gang will also receive messages from that one smart switch. Or does every switch in multi-gang switches get replaced with a smart switch?

Of course, I understand that I would also have to add some spots for keypads pre-wired. What kind of wiring goes to these future keypad spots? From where to wher does the wire go?

Carol

I'm just knowledgeable enough to be dangerous!

When you say roughed-in, I that to mean the boxes have been wired, but no switch has yet been attached to them. So yes, at this point, I would switch to deep plastic boxes because its cheap and easy (especially as your husband is free labor!). The smart switches could work in metal, but it's iffy.

The different technologies work a little differently from one another, but yes, each load needs to be attached to at least one smart switch. For 3 way switches certain technologies have what they call 'companion' switches which are much cheaper than the smart switch, so that each load only needs one of the more expensive switches.

The keypad spots are wired the same way as a normal switch would be. Depending on the type, the keypads themselves can control a load in addition to the other functions they do. But they don't have to.

Happy to answer questions as best I can, and please ask to clarify if I am being unclear.

Thanks, freeoscar. You are correct that we don't have the switch plates on the rough-in electrical boxes at present (our walls are just studs, no drywall).

Your explanation is quite clear, and much appreciated! One part I need some more elaborating on was on planning for the keypads. Given, we don't expect to add the lighting controls for a few years, how can we safely prewire for those keypads? Do we bury standard, line voltage wire (14/2) inside the walls? Do we then put a blank faceplate on each spot we want to add a key pad to later? What size boxes do you need for the keypads (rough in boxes that is)?

When the time comes to add the smart switches, do we need to buy one for every switch in the home (assuming we intend to use all those loads within the scenes)? In addition, I gather we need to buy a keypad for each main area/room (maybe 5). What else do we need to buy to be able to have lighting scene control? How does the cost of the Insteon compare to a wired system, like Centralite.

Is this the smart switches that you place at each switch spot? How do you dim with these? Do these dimmers work on LED bulbs?

http://www.insteon.com/wall-switches

Sorry, for all these questions.

Yes, you would safely bury the wires in the wall behind a plate. Keypads require a single box - same as a light switch.

Yes, you would need a smart switch for each light in the home that you wish to be part of a scene. Then you need some type of hub which contains the processor which controls the 'smart' part of the system, and connects to the internet. Generally these are pretty small (think apple TV).

I assume you are talking about the centralite elegance, rather than the Jetstream (which is a wireless system). That's going to be more expensive, and you'd have to rewire all your lighting circuits. They require an entirely different wiring scheme than a retrofit solution like Insteon (or RadioRa or Jetstream, etc.). They'd require someone trained in the system to set it up. And they are proprietary - so should the manufacturer drop support or you want to move to a different system it could require a whole re-wiring of the system.

Smart dimmers work like normal dimmers so you adjust the light at the switch. Usually they have a default level you can set so that you don't need to adjust it each time you turn it on. Additionally they have apps so you can control the lights remotely, if that's your thing.

Yes, they work with LED bulbs, but as with all dimmers/LEDs, there can be compatibility issues. If you search for forums for Insteon I'm sure there are people who have tested out various bulbs and can tell you which ones are compatible and which ones give trouble. Some companies like Lutron do testing themselves and have a website where you can find approved bulbs.

Thank you again. Yes I was talking about the Centralite Elegance system. We did cost it out, and yikes! Generally, we prefer wired to wireless/RF, but it sounds like the wireless will cost less, and be far less labour intensive at this stage of our build.

Was the image I linked above, the Insteon smart switch that we would need to buy for each light switch? Or is there a different one?

Where does the hub live. Is it a stand alone that goes in the structural wiring closet? Or does it sit near the computer?

Carol

Yes, that link you have links through to the different types of Insteon switches and dimmers and keypads. Generally speaking you want the hubs to be as centrally located in your house as possible so they are within 'talking' distances of the switches. Insteon is a little different from a pure wireless solution like RadioRa or Z-wave in that it communicates both wirelessly and through the electrical wiring in your house (it grew out of an older technology called X-10 which uses the electrical wiring only). So insteon hubs have a device which plugs into an outlet and communicates with it (called a PLM - power line modem). For whatever reason people have said that you actually want the PLM on a separate circuit from your PC because it can cause interference).

Thanks.

So, here is what I understood:

We need 1 hub for our 3000 square foot house (plus smart switches and some keypads)

The hub should not be near the computer

The hub should be centrally located.

The hub plugs into the wall, rather than hardwired. Does that mean you choose a convenient plug, somewhere in the open (i.e. not in a closet)? Or can you install a plug inside a closet for the hub?

Are these statements above correct? Please correct me where I have misunderstood.

With appreication,

Carol

Depending on the layout, construction and type of hub, you might need 2 for a 3000 sq foot house - that's right on the cusp. It can be in a closet, but you wouldn't want it around metal - so keep it away from furnaces, etc.

But for right now, unless you are planning to choose a system right away, you really just need the deep plastic gang boxes, make sure to put in the 5 or so gangs for keypads, and make sure that the wiring includes a neutral.

The hub placement will come later - they aren't big or unsightly - in most cases just a small white box the size of a couple of decks of cards. Its really only the insteon that needs to be away from the computer. The other ones are probably better placed near the router so you have a wired internet connection, as they don't necessarily use wifi.

Thank you freeoscar. We will buy the hubs later, as I understand they just get plugged in, not hardwired. We have 4 levels on the house (basement, 2 full floors and a small conditioned/finished attic area), so we may well need two hubs. I assume if we plug them into one area, and they don't work well, they just need to be moved. Easy.

Carol

I just reread this helpful thread, and have another quesiton. When you said:

"Depending on the type, the keypads themselves can control a load in addition to the other functions they do. But they don't have to".

Does that mean, I can put an Insteon keypad on one of the switches in say a 3 or 4 gang centrally located switch? In this way, I don't need to clutter up the wall with yet another switch for the keypad. So, in my understanding of your explanation:

1)I would replace all switches/loads that I want part of the scence control with the smartswitches, and one in each central area could, instead, be replaced with a keypad plate?

2)In this event, we don't need to wire separately for future keypad spots. Yes or No?

What have I missed this time?

Carol

Carol,

Lighting accounts for about 14% of the average American home's monthly electrical bill of $110 and I have to wonder if the return on investment for some kind of whole house "kill switch" might be pretty far out. Let's say that the kill switch reduces the lighting bill by 20%. $110 x 14% x 20% = $3 per month or $36 per year.

Obviously that's historical data and with the increased used of LED bulbs/fixtures the savings might prove to be even more illusive. A 60 watt "equivalent" LED bulb uses about 8.5 watts of electricity which means it can run for about 117 hours before it uses a kilowatt of electricity. In other words, that bulb would have to be on an extra 5 full days before you've spent 15¢.

Certainly homes have more than one light bulb and you should do the math for your particular situation but it's just something to think about.

Mike,

That was surprising and useful information. I always assumed we were wasting a lot of money, when we left lights on. Thanks for the comment.

Carol

Would it be against any code to simply mount several switches near the entrance door and put one in series with each lighting circuit? I'm not talking about 3-way switches. That way, when leaving the house, all lighting circuits could be turned off and when returning, no stumbling around because the switches are next to the door. Of course, this wouldn't work if some people regularly use a different exit door.

The code (210.70) is deliberately vague on "design issues" for the most part.

http://freenec.com/T32.html

Realize that there are already single pole switches in series with every circuit in the house.

240.83

(D) Used as Switches. Circuit breakers used as switches in 120-volt and 277-volt fluorescent lighting circuits shall be listed and shall be marked SWD or HID. Circuit breakers used as switches in high-intensity discharge lighting circuits shall be listed and shall be marked as HID.

.

This situation is traditionally wired with low voltage relay switches.

http://www.kyleswitchplates.com/low-voltage-switches-plates/

The problem is that now days, everybody wants to up-sell the system to a computerized home automation system. The reality is that the same cabinet and relays used for the expensive automated systems can usually be used for the old system with mechanical push buttons rather than computer key pads, at a lower cost and complication level.

So it's not explicitly prohibited in the code. Sorry for spreading misinformation. Thanks, Fred, for clarifying.

I wonder if this could sort of be interpreted that way though:

(c) Where one or more lighting outlet(s) are installed for interior stairways, there shall be a wall switch at each floor level, and landing level that includes an entryway, to control the lighting outlet(s) where the stairway between floor levels has six risers or more.

Because if the kill switch is off, then there isn't a wall switch that can control the lighting. I'm probably stretching a bit here though. :)

I realise that a circuit breaker is - in effect - a kill switch, so making a more convenient kill switch isn't doing anything technically different.

But I still maintain that it's a bad idea and while on the surface it may seem like a good idea, once you implement it and try to use it, you'll regret doing it.

I would not do it either.

Further, it could be argued that the intent of the code is to be able to turn on a light at ANY entrance that a person would use to enter the house, and not have to go into the garage first. Multiple kill switches at every entrance point could get almost as expensive as a proper system, and look a lot less attractive.

(a) At least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed in hallways, stairways, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power.

(b) For dwelling units, attached garages, and detached garages with electric power, at least one wall switch–controlled lighting outlet shall be installed to provide illumination on the exterior side of outdoor entrances or exits with grade level access. A vehicle door in a garage shall not be considered as an outdoor entrance.

.

Or, at the very least, the kill switche(s) would need to be just inside the walk through door of the garage so that you get to them before the switches to the garage lights.

It would be much easier to train the people to turn off the lights when they leave the room... or get a chimpanzee, as I am sure they can learn to do it ;)

Lots of interesting comments above. I like the idea of getting a chimpanzee -- perhaps a chimp would be better than my four children at turning off lights LOL. I think we will get over the need for kill switch, after reading how much trouble it would be, and likely not a good idea in the end. Thank you all for helping me to see that.

We will pre-wire/rough in for a RF/wireless lighting control system, as I would like eventually to have scene control in some of the main rooms. We can't afford it now, in the middle of all these reno costs, but down the line it would be nice. At that point we can revisit a way to turn off multiple lights at once. Thank you all for commenting. I appreciate your thoughts.

@freeoscar,

When you get a chance, can you please answer my questions on the Insteon that I posted Thursday at 11:06.

Carol

I agree with being able to turn on the light at room entrances. Safety first.

Thanks freeoscar. So, aside from making sure the keypad is paired with a smaller load (i.e. 4 can lights, or a chandy), are there any other disadvantages to combinining a keypad with an existing switch? Would it be better somehow to add the keypad beside the other switches knowing that the result would, in some rooms, be a gang of four switches plus the gang for the keypad?

If there is no reason not to combine the keypad with a switch, then it seems our prewiring is mostly to convert the switch boxes to deep plastic boxes and ensure that the switch wiring includes a neutral. We can plan out which switch would do double duty as keypad and switch. Have I got it? Seems simpler than I imagined to plan in advance for the lighting controls to come later. Thanks for your guidance and answering all my questions!

Carol

Somehow, I do not think this is a good idea unless there are multiple places where the whole house system could be re-activated. Lets say, you go to bed and shut off all the lights from your bedroom. That means that no one elsewhere in the house could turn on a light until your bedroom unit was activated. Someone else in the house would have to go to the bathroom in total darkness - not a happy circumstance.

Carol,

Sorry for the delay. You are correct - if your loads are able to be handled by the hybrid keypad (one that also controls a load), there is no technical reason why you'd need a separate switch and keypad. Separate can be better for function - especially when you have guests over. They just use the lights like normal (i.e. a switch is in a logical place relevant to the load it is controlling), without having to figure out how to turn the light on.

As an aside, and I'm sure your electrician has accounted for this, make sure you properly de-rate for multi-gang locations (though not as big an issue with LED loads).

Thanks, freeoscar. I will have to see how user friendly the hybrid keypad is for when guests just want to turn on one light. DH is doing much of the wiring. An electrician will inspect his work, before the official electrical inspection. I hope DH knows what de-rate for multi-gang locations means.

Carol

http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Service-Support/Pages/Technical/InstallationInstructions/Ganging-Derating/GangingDerating.aspx

http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/048487.pdf

Thank you Fred S for providing those links. At present we have several multi-gang switches roughed in. We will remove the metal boxes and replace them with deeper, plastic gang boxes, and will pay attention to derating and space needed to add the deeper plates of Insteon.

I assume, the link on lutron, would apply equally to Insteon? So, we will spend more time reading up on the requirements of the smart switches and key pads as well as hybrid keypads (switch and keypad in one).

Use the largest volume boxes you can, and don't run any more wires "through" the box than necessary.

"I assume, the link on lutron, would apply equally to Insteon?"

Yes, the basics are the same.

Each manufacturer will list the proper de-rating specifications for its own switches. They may differ based on the heat dissipation characteristics of each switch (in laymen's terms, de-rating just means that when switches are ganged together they don't cool down as easily as when they are separated, so the size load they carry has to be reduced. There will generally be 3 or 4 ratings - one for unganged, one for double-ganged, one for the end of a 3 gang, and one for the middle of a three gang). At any rate, this is something your electrician is sure to consider as you lay out the switches and light circuits through your home.

Thank you Fred and Freeoscar for the education. Now that you spell out de-rating so clearly, I do recall the electrician who started the wiring for us (that DH is continuing) planned for de-rating.

Carol

Most of the derating is a direct consequence of how many side tabs you remove to fit all the switches in the box. If you remove the wrong or both side tabs the switch will be derated the same no matter where you put it in the box, single gang, double, or three gang.

This just seems like a bad idea all the way around.

It's not safe. Some master kill switch is off, but some room needs light in the middle of the night for some reason but none of the light switches work..

It's going to be extremely expensive. The ROI will be decades, if not longer.

And keypads? I guess there is the novelty factor.. But sometimes (most of the time) people just want to turn a light on or off, and I guess sometimes have a light on a dimmer switch. And not have to enter a code.

This all just seems like extra expense and complexity when simplicity is really what is needed.

Thanks sambah for your comment. I realized after reading the posts above that a master switch is not wise. As per the scene control keypads, I would very much like to add those at a later date, which is why I have had so many questions on how to plan or pre-wire to add them later. We have gone to great effort to design a mult-layered lighting system (i.e. not just all can lights). In order to make best use of this lighting, a scene control fits the bill. A bank of light switches and dimmers is less user friendly than a single scene control keypad in all key rooms. And one of the scene you can control, is an all off button.

Common lighting scenes are described in the link below for reference. Yes, it is an extra expense, but I want to use the various lights I have installed and to dim without having to adjust each control for each light.

Carol

https://www.electronichouse.com/home-lighting/smart-lighting-scenes-for-home-automation-systems/

freeoscar,

Can you please tell me what you are planning for the your keypads? Are you going to place them in a separate, keypad only plastic box. Or, are you going to do hybrid arrangement where the keypad and one lighting load share a plastic box?

I hope you will share your lighting control plan on this forum when you get it worked out.

Carol

ontariomom,

I'm going to be using the Lutron RadioRa2 system. While they have hybrid keypads, they have not yet updated them for LED lights, so I am going with regular keypads, and then dimmers (and a couple of switches) to control the loads. I also prefer this because I want the keypads to be supplemental to the system. We frequently have guests over, and different babysitters/caregivers for our young children so I want a system that is normal for them - last thing I need is to get a call while at work that someone can't turn the lights on.

Good feedback, Freeoscar. So if your great room has three loads (and you want lighting control at the entrance to that room), would you choose to have one keypad, plus 3 combo switches/dimmers (Lutron's Smartswitches)? I take it the dimmers and switches are all together in one face plate with Lutron's Smartswitches? Is this correct?

Carol

Yes, all would be on one faceplate. I would have the keypad and the switch for the main ambient lighting in the same place - the most used entrance to the room. Depending on the type of other lighting I might have those switches placed nearer to the place I would be using them, and then also a button on the keypad where I could control it from (as well as the relevant scenes). In a greatroom maybe they'd all be together since there aren't tasks per se, like in a kitchen.