Obviously these guys have never submitted plans before.

what part tells you that? The nature of the errors / oversights or the lateness or?

Ok, time for the full background...

Scope of project: 1545sq. ft. 3/2; adding 394 sq. ft., enclosing front porch / awning, re-doing kitchen and master bath, adding 6 feet to south side of house (2 bedrooms + master bath). Being done in 2 phases. Phase I is enclosing 2 porches, adding 1/2 bath and re-doing kitchen. I can post a copy of the plans, if you like.

Contractor is an acquaintance of ours. Very well-respected and one of the most honest people I've ever met. The way I refer people to him, I say, "He's not the cheapest out there, but you know you will never, ever be lied to or screwed over."

Only reason I was being the laborer was because we know him and he said he reserved the right to fire me at any point. He liked the idea that we were going to use a designer, but the designer he referred us to was 18 months out. Enter designer #2 who has done 2 remodels for a friend and they look fabulous. However, in hindsight, neither of those involved plans with the city (I think). Designer #2 has a great style / taste we like.

Designer #2 is friends with the person known as the most desirable architect in the city. Designer tells us that she can get us in with said designer / architect in the timeline we requested. Contractor had a drafter + engineer that he had used 1x previously set up, but when he heard the name of the proposed drafter, he immediately relented. I have a friend in planning at the city and he confirmed the status of the drafter/architect firm.

As the plan development rolls along, it becomes apparent that our designer has a history with the drafter that works at that firm and that the owner of said firm is going to only serve as consultant on the project (perhaps that's what he always is?). Designer states it will be cheaper that way (first clue we should have stopped everything, but we're rookies).

Plans are then late and everything in the first post applies.

$3k is not a deal-breaker. It just would have been nice. Total project is in the neighborhood of $100k. Phase I will be about $80k. Our contractor has been committed to our project since last December and has been putting off work waiting for plans to be approved. He is a 1 person outfit and, when the project starts, we will be his only major project. He is also a cabinet builder and will be doing the cabinets.

Let me know if you'd like me to post the plans. We are, of course, out of our league here so we're obviously not sure our perceptions are on. Of course, being charged for the re-printing and CD is NOTHING in the grand scheme of things and we will pay it no problem. I was more wondering if the fact that we're being charged for it is further evidence that this group of folks don't know what they're doing.

I should clarify my answers to your questions:

Were they immediately available?:

From the time we started with the designer / drafter to the time we wanted plans done was 12-14 weeks. If we had this to do over again, we would have planned 1 year out, at least. This is clearly on us. However, had we used the contractor's person, we might not have been delayed, but who knows.

Much cheaper than others who wouldn't even talk to you because of the DIY element?

No. The DIY has no impact. We are only doing an element of DIY because we know the contractor. Note that he is not a close friend; just an acquaintance friend of friends for the last 15 years or so. He has done work (small jobs; under $5k) for us previously on our rental property and our home.

BTW, love that graphic. Ideally, we've chosen Good and slow with the contractor. However, our choice of drafter / designer appears to be fast (in comparison to the grand scheme of things) and crappy.

100K is ridiculously optimistic for that scope. Even for builder grade finishes. 100K is a nicely upscale kitchen and nothing else.

Sophie, thank you. That is really helpful. My parents said the same thing. They did a nice kitchen about 8-10 years ago and it was $80k. I will post the contractor's contract ASAP; I have the feeling, however, that he's very much in the ballpark. Remodeling is freaking expensive!!! The current contract does not include phase II at all, since we may wait a while for that - especially if phase I doesn't go as planned (and I assume it won't).

The municipal's requirements are pretty standard. I suspect that the drafter didn't worry about the smoke alarms, etc, since those aren't really something that usually have to be on the plans in a remodel--they just have to be written instructions on the plans and will be "inspected" when the time comes. Your laundry list was about the same as ours, and in fact, if I didn't know better (I don't) I might think your city reviewer and mine were working out of the same playbook.

The missing plan copies and CD are probably issues with the drafter but shouldn't be an issue overall--just print a few more plans.

The rebar--sometimes the planner/reviewer wants more specifics and sometimes less. Sometimes a drafter will not submit the specifics leaving room for decisions later. If the city doesn't care, it works. If they do, they ask.

I think this isn't so atypical a city response to a drafter's remodel plans.

My final question to you: what will the drafter have to do with you after the plans are approved? In my case--nothing. The GC relationship was WAY more important than the drafter. I just needed the drafter to get the permits approved. Consider if it matters in the long run (what, you maybe have another week to have to work with the drafter, and then you don't ever need to see/talk to them again). Just make sure your GC has seen your plans and finds them clear and to his needs. The city is just marking off their check boxes and collecting their money. Whether or not anyone looks for those inter-wired smoke detectors on your actual house will totally depend on your inspector.

As a software developer / engineer (not Civil) I've worked on many projects. Haven't ever seen one that was on time. What the city is asking for - reads like typical boiler plate - and some of it is just making the GC aware of the building code. Should't take long (a day?) to fixup and resubmit the plans.

About 8 years ago I gutted and remodeled our kitchen. Granite counter tops / maple floor / top of the line appliances / new windows / better quality lights - it was about $75k - for materials.

Two years ago I gutted the master bath. Porcelain tile, floor to ceiling / Grohe fixtures / floating vanity / Toto toilet / new window / heated floor / Kohler tub. It was about $15k for materials.

I didn't change the structure of the house. I don't see how $100k is going to do it.

Maybe $100K is a quote for labor only?...

(here they always look at smoke detectors. The inspectors I mean)

elbell - I see you've met Sophie already. Please understand that in her mind anyone doing a kitchen remodel for <$75k or a house reno/construction for <$500 foot is a delusional cheapskate pauper. She is of course entitled to hold that opinion, but just keep that in mind when she offers her thoughts.

In general, construction costs are incredibly regional in nature, and as you are finding out, so are building requirements and planning office behaviors.

@freeoscar: "Please understand that in her mind anyone doing a kitchen remodel for <$75k"

Just off the top of my head:

Eight years ago our new kitchen cabinets - Omega brand - cost $18k alone. Then add 6 new Marvin windows another $6k, 4 - 6 panel Maple doors $2k, 3/4" Maple floor $3k, granite counter tops $6k, high quality can lights and overhead lights $2k, WAC under cabinet track lighting $1k, Added 8 circuits for key appliances and counter top $2k, somewhere around $2k for Maple trim, undermount sink & Grohe faucet $1k. The permit fees in Minneapolis were about $2k

There's probably $3k - $5k, misc electrical, plumbing, sheet rock, disposal fees, paint, varnish.

So we're to $50k, not counting appliances: Range, hood, dishwasher, fridge, disposal.

Trades people have told me if I hadn't done that myself, it would have cost $150k.

Three thousand dollars is $3000, and no matter what you're spending on a project, you'd rather not waste it. I've been annoyed for less. :)

#10 on the list may not fall under the job of designer/drafter, but they should have let you know that filing all their stuff didn't mean there wasn't more stuff that had to be filed.

Having to submit and resubmit and alter stuff that was already submitted but nobody noticed was off until a new submission seems to be the way my building department works, but they're considered to be pretty thorough (or, as my architect and GC felt, the most demanding, nitpicky, PITA city they had ever worked with--and these people are used to SF Bay area construction). Between my architect's people, my GC's people, the soil testing people (!), and me, I bet there were at least 20 deliveries of assorted papers to that office.

They did not request a CD. I bet they hadn't thought of it.

@geoffrey - for sure costs can run up quickly, but they don't always have to - 6 new windows and 4 new doors are usually not needed, for instance. I've seen plenty of beautiful kitchens on this site which have been done for less than $25k.

"what part tells you that? The nature of the errors / oversights or the lateness or?"

All of the above.

The building department requirements are what I would expect so the drafter appears to not only be unfamiliar with these requirements but also did not read the list of requirements available from the town. The missing structural info is odd from a structural engineer but it would not be the drafter's fault. When a bedroom is added smoke and CO detector plans are normally required to be submitted so they can be reviewed by the fire service rather than being reviewedd on site.

I don't understand the trail of responsibility or the involvement of the designer or architect but I would have been surprised if a drafter had submitted a better set of documents for a permit without some help. I would have asked the builder or the architect to oversee or at least review the documents before they were submitted.

The cost issue gets hung up in what the contract specifically said about time and professional supervision and the person's professed professional experience and capacity. I don't blame you for hoping for better professional service but I'm not sure you should have expected it.

On the bright side, many building plan reviewers would have returned the submission after several weeks without providing such complete revision instructions and that may have saved you weeks.

Also, using a drafter instead of an architect or professional designer probably saved you many times more than what you could have saved working on the project so things may yet work out.

Dump the numbskull and hire someone who knows what they're doing.

Since time is critical and you have the deficiencies spelled out in writing and the digital drawings are probably only on the drafter's computer, it would be wise to press forward as quickly as possible and decide who and what to pay after you get the permit.

I agree with JDS - firing them will only prolong your project and unless the contract has specific delivery dates - you won't get your money back - and they could come back on you.

Notice, most residential contracts have no dates - this is for a reason.

I would guess, at some point 50% of the people would like to fire their contractor.