Seems high. What are you referring to in saying "run some new lines"? Are you talking about the PVC condensate line for the furnace and the lineset and drain for AC?

I don't think it's meaningful to try to do your own itemization of quotes because in the end, all contractors are dealing with mostly the same puzzle pieces and so you can compare different ones just by looking at totals. Get other names from Yelp, friends and neighbors, etc, and maybe get two more bids. Be sure all include the same work. Avoid using a contractor that comes by way of a "referral" from a retailer, like Costco, Home Depot, Sears, Loews, etc. These referral programs involve paying the retailer a commission and the job bid gets jacked up to cover it.

Another thing to keep in mind - if the ductwork for your older house is shoddy (and most are), new building code rules require leak testing and plugging when a new furnace is installed. Contractors bid jobs knowing that the new rules may lead to additional work beyond what is bid.

(Edit - I realized after I responded that your abbreviation SF could be square feet, San Francisco, or single family, because any one makes sense in that sentence. It's a good reminder that abbreviations can be easily misunderstood)

Thanks, Snidely. Yes, the estimate refers to installing a new PVC line for the condensate, a new lineset, and a new drainage line. I was talking about single family built in 1940; the square footage is about 2800 sqft. The contractor told me that the approximate cost breakdown is roughly 45%-50% for the Bryant equipment, 10-15% for other stuff (concrete pad, tubing, shielding, electrical parts, sheet metal, etc etc), and 45-50% labor. Once you start talking about a system with a total estimate of $15k including parts and labor, though, 45-50% for labor ($7000-7500 for two days' work) seems like a lot.

32hrs/$7k is $210/hr?

The general rule of thumb is the installed price is twice the equipment cost. On top of that you may have additional charges for duct work replacement and difficult and time consuming installations.

Contractors buy their equipment from distributors who charge different prices across the country. You don't the actual equipment cost the installer is paying. What you see on the internet is often not accurate.

The best way to find out if you are getting a fair price for you area is to get additional quotes from other Bryant dealers. You can also get the same equipment from a Carrier dealer.

Can you provide the model number and sized of what has been proposed? It does seem like a lot of money for a 1940 sq. foot home.

Thanks, Mike. That seems to be how the math is being presented to me, but I am not convinced that it is reasonable to pay twice as much for the installation of a more expensive system unless the more expensive system also takes twice as long to put in. I am in Washington DC, and the local gov. has set up some rebates to encourage the installation of high efficiency units. Only about 20 contractors are enrolled or certified for the program, so if you don't have them install the system you forfeit the rebate, which can be worth $1025, plus the $500 federal credit and manufacturer's incentives. Unfortunately, the contractors have jacked up the total cost so high that they are essentially the beneficiary of the rebate program.

To clarify, our house was built in 1940, and is about 2800 sq. feet. We are looking at a 3-ton Bryant system, 987MA66100V21 gas furnace, 180BNA036000 A/C, both high efficiency. One contractor has proposed a Trane system: XC95M furnace, XV20i A/C (96 AFUE, 20 SEER, 13 EER). Total cost after all rebates: $13k. Same price for the Bryant system.

The proposal is for high end equipment so that is driving the price. It does take a little more work to install a modulating furnace but not enough to justify to bigger installation costs. This is how the industry operates. The higher end equipment is more profitable.

The Bryant 987MA66100V21 is a 100K BTU furnace. That seems over sized given you house and climate. I would think the 80K BTU would be the correct size to go along with the 3 ton AC. Is a load calculation required in order to qualify for the local energy rebate?

I think the XV20i with the 20 SEER rating is over kill for the DC area. But if the extra cost over a 16-17 SEER condenser is offset by an extra rebate, then there is no reason not to buy it.

If you are looking to save some money and can wait, then the fall would be a good time to buy. Contractors aren't as busy and may be a little more negotiable on prices. You may save a few hundred dollars.

Thanks again, Mike. That makes a lot of sense - if homeowners are ready to pay more for high efficiency equipment, then they are probably willing to pay more for the installation too. To answer your question, the local rebates require 16 SEER and 13 EER minimum, but no load calculation is required and none has been done. I have a bid for a 3-ton 16 SEER Bryant system for $7500-8000 (from a contractor who is not registered with the local rebate program), so the rebates are not going to bring the high efficiency systems anywhere close to that. The after-rebate price for the high efficiency systems is about $13k. It does not seem that the extra $5000 would be well spent. I might save a little on electricity and natural gas, but after 14 years both systems likely will fail (right after the warranty goes), and I will have to replace them. My gas bill runs $350/month in the winter, and my electric is about the same in the summer when the AC is running, but unless a 19/20 SEER system is going to produce a couple hundred in monthly savings over a 16 SEER system, I don't think I will see $5000 in savings over the life of the equipment.

My annual gas bill in mn is $1k. 2500 sq/ft house. Or, my avg plan is $78/mo. Numbers don't lie. 110k btu 1975 era furnace. yes, it is on its last legs.

80 KBTU high eff furnace 2 stage var speed with 3 ton AC condenser...

This thread is exactly how people make poor decisions, basing things on cost. Certainly for the most part it doesn't always matter how much or even how little you spend on an install. But to play the role of Monday morning quarterback and question every play doesn't mean a whole lot.

So you and all your knowledgeable accountant ways like to look at what the company is making for 'labor'.

Yeah, your belief is that 'labor' is the only cost a company faces to win your job, they have no other bills. The company just buys the equipment, pays labor to put it in and then pocket the rest.

I think because you all know so much, you should inspire yourselves to learn the trade spend 4 years gaining the experience required to take the HVAC license exam and then go out and take it and try to pass it, plunk down some money for general liability insurance, by a truck or van then fill it with tools and equipment to do the job.

Certainly the tools or equipment never break so you buy them once and you can use them for 20, 30 - 50 years even. Heck the truck never needs gas, no maintenance, tires last forever, the stickers that you plaster over it are free too. In fact I was surprised that after driving the van for a few years the dealership called me and said they have some new ones they were giving away for free, they said they loved the fact that I drove all over town advertising their brand of truck / van.

Those that 'pretend' to know a lot about a subject, actually know very little. Why would I be listed on this board as the 'pro' while they are not?

In the HVAC business world there is a 50% chance that business has failed within 5 years. By year 10 it's close to 100%.

I realize nothing I say here will sink in, this mentality has existed in some form over the previous 21 years I've been in the HVAC business.

I have to agree with Austin although I may have phrased the post a little differently in tone. I think the OP is way off base on his initial post. If OP does not like the pricing, then seek other quotes. Generally HVAC dealers have always provided one price on new installs that is all inclusive for equipment, labor, misc, overhead, profit, etc. Whether it's right or wrong, I don't see that changing.

Sorry,

IMO

The goal should be to get a 'QUALITY' installation, not worry about how much a company is making, because with overhead and advertising costs there is no way you will accurately predict that.

A quality installation costs money, but in the longer term will pay for itself with potentially less hassles and break downs and if you have a HVAC company doing quality installs, they are more likely to be around to service or repair your equipment when it needs it.

All to often I get calls 1 to 3 years out of some 'great deal' someone got on an HVAC install. So one must ask the question:

"If the deal was so good and the equipment is less than 3 years old, why in God's name are you calling me for?"

Mr. Fiction meet Mr. Reality.

Thanks, Austin Air. I started typing a detailed response to your original post and now see that there are a few additional responses. I can post my detailed response if anyone is interested, but I take issue with your original comment that cost is not an important driver for making decisions. In response to your more recent comment above, I do agree that every customer wants a QUALITY installation. But, from the customer's perspective, the goal is to obtain a QUALITY installation at the lowest possible cost. Obviously, the contractor's objective is different; the contractor's (absolutely legitimate) business interest is to make as much as it can from each job in order to cover its costs and produce as much profit as possible.

The problem for most homeowners is they don't know what constitutes a quality installation for HVAC. Many of the things involved are not visible.

Yes, that's right, but furthermore, how can a homeowner find out which contractors know what they're doing and provide consistently solid quality work and which don't? Which are honest in their pricing and work versus which use scare tactics and phony phrases to get work that may not be necessary or may not solve the problems? That's the elusive information. It's hard to know and it's hard to be sure.

For me, I relied on recommendations (that I found myself, not provided by the bidders) and general reputations in the area (insofar as I could get info).

With some recent work I had done, I was lucky that a highly regarded contractor also delivered a competitive bid. Had it been higher, I probably would have gone with them anyway on the strength of reputation. Pricing isn't everything.

anicely, quality at the lowest possible cost?

How do you suppose the lowest possible cost is achieved?

Less advertising? nope

Less cost of equipment / materials? nope

Less managers salary? nope

Less profit margin? nope

Less cost of licensing, insurance, bank / accounting fees? nope.

Less cost of tools / parts to do the job? nope

Less cost of labor by hiring the unskilled? Bingo.

So much for quality. Because without skilled labor you won't get it. The system could look beautiful, but beauty doesn't make it cool or heat.

Austin, you seem to be equating quality with cost: the lower the
cost, the lower the quality, you say, while conversely, the higher the cost,
the higher the quality. Surely you would not say that if Austin Air bids
$10,000 for an A/C installation and I bid $20,000, the customer will be getting
a higher quality installation if they go with me because I am charging more.
By the same token, if someone bids $8000 for the same job, they are not
necessarily offering a lower quality installation -- your bid might simply be
too high. Certainly, a bid that is extremely low may be reason for
skepticism -- many times, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.
But if two equally competent contractors offer the same exact system and
one is charging 20% more, that does not make the higher bid better. It
just makes it more expensive.

A couple months ago, my neighbor, who is nearing
80, came by and said she had received a $10,000 bid to repaint the exterior of
her house. It’s a brick
house, so we are talking about painting the wood trim and the shutters. She wanted to know if I thought it was
a reasonable price to pay. Since
I had recently had my own house, which is the same size, painted for $2,000, and
since I was happy with the work, I told her I thought the $10k bid was
high. It would never have
occurred to me to tell her that basing her decision on the cost of the work
would be a poor way to make the decision, as you suggested in your first post,
or that the high cost of the bid was indicative of the high quality paint job
she would receive.

Yeah you're right about the 20,000 versus 10,000 bid. But it's hard to explain these things in a text based format not to mention the differences in the bids, what is included or not included.

The devil is in the details as with anything else.

The painting bid, do you know if it was just painting or did it include additional replacement of siding or some other exterior work like gutters or other improvements. I doubt you know that with a certainty.

Your neighbor may have gotten estimates for painting because she thought that was what she needed, but neglected to say what all was included or not included in the bid.

Certainly there can be vast differences from one bid to another, there is another way to lower a bid and that is do less work, use less materials.

But are we talking about a complete quality job or are we talking about cutting corners?