I plant ours 1 inch deeper than it was in the pot it came in....

Thank you! That's what I'll do.

Like Jim I also bury my own roots deeper than they were in the pot. But a little deeper than Jim especially the own roots that come on a single long stem. Someone on here posted a video clip made by Bill Radler. He recommended planting deeper also especially in colder climates.

Remember to keep in mind that Drift rose canes usually flop over. They are a spreading ground cover type rose. When you buy them they've been growing with the pots close together so all of the stems stand up because that is the only way they can grow.

I planted 13 a couple of weeks ago that had stems standing straight up and most of the stems have started to relax and are laying down now.

"Plant it high, it'll never die". Every new employee in our company hears this as they are taught to plant.

I work for a Fl. landscape company and everything we plant is 1"to 2" higher than it was in the pot. Then the plant is mulched with 3" of pine bark. When you plant deep, those surface roots which are there to get oxygen, get buried and they don't work as efficiently as they should. This can slow down establishment of the plant and can cause long lasting injury.

If a plant doesn't stand up on it's own, it should be staked.... not stressed by planting deeper.

Each university has some variation on planting instructions, but a pattern emerges. You won't hurt a plant by planting high as long as you cover the roots to keep them from drying out. You can hurt a plant from planting it deep, some say even an inch of soil over the root ball is too much,

For example I have included a link to a university of Florida publication.
Planting instructions from Univeristy of Florida

I don't have experience with planting in cold climates so I won't comment on Radler's advise.

The following is advice from Michigan State University on planting trees so maybe even where its cold, planting depth is important

Generally, this mistake is most serious if trees are planted too deep. Shallow planted trees can usually be corrected and have less serious consequences, if there are any at all. The consequences for deep planted trees can range from them having a slow start to scion rooting, particularly to apples. Stone fruit can be most sensitive to root systems that have been deep planted. Deeper portions of the soil profile possess more free water, lower temperatures and less oxygen. These conditions inhibit new root growth and lend to a slower start for trees. A grower may not intentionally plant trees excessively deep. Trees that are augured in (trees planted in holes made with an auger) have a tendency to settle following rains or irrigation as much as three to five inches in depth, depending on soil type. Mechanically planted trees will settle less at two to four inches.

I think trees and roses are apples and oranges. I'm sure tree soil is improved somewhat, but nowhere near the attention we give our rose soil, which is often light and friable by the time we prepare it. If one is planting in clay I can see the wisdom of worrying about rose (and tree) roots. But maybe not so much if the soil is typical rose soil, so I think planting an inch or two lower isn't going to harm the roots.

Hi jim1961, this why I like forums, you can get some real info from real people. What you say makes sense, especially the part about roses doing poorly if they are pushed above ground level. The method I was talking about assumes that the plants are mulched and the mulch is always replenished so the sides of the root ball is never exposed. If I'm planting in a bed that has already been mulched, then I push the mulch aside, plant so that the root ball will be then same height as the top of the mulch when it is reapplied. Roses do not die when they are planted a little low and only an inch, in my opinion, probably does not make any difference. Many people plant much lower than that not knowing the harm they are causing.

Anyone who is willing to try planting high and keeping the sides of the root ball covered, I think will be surprised by the speed at which the plants grow out.

The advice to plant roses deep usually comes with advice to make sure that the soil has good drainage. Roses are different than trees in that their growth is much faster--a rose can die back to the ground and produce quality flowers on long stems in a few months. One could follow the advice for trees if one were to limit their selection to roses ideally suited for one's climate. You might say that a lot of people "zone push" roses. And some of us manage to do it successfully, year after year. If I only look at the roses in my yard, I see more dead winter killed trees than winter killed roses.

Tree are plants and roses are plants. One site I read said that the only exception to the level or high rule is for planting tomatoes. I have never seen plants killed by planting high as long as the sides or the root ball is kept covered (good point made by jim1961) , however I have seen them die. Any plant with a crown, daylilies, loriope ect. can be susceptible to crown rot.

Lucille, If you are happy with the way your roses are growing, I am not trying to get you to change the way you plant. What you say it true about friable soil, unimproved clay soil is more of a problem and in those cases we plant even higher, this is for drainage. However, I do want to present another option that is backed by my experience and university advice . I had a rose nursery before I started landscaping and I planted my roses a little lower than they were in the pots and seldom had any problems. Nursery owners and breeders don't usually have the experience that landscapers do with planting and then leaving the plant forever excepting it to grow. We need methods that always work, cause if our plants don't thrive, we have to replace them for free.

In our buisness we install lots of roses, it kind of our signature plant.

" I planted my roses a little lower than they were in the pots and seldom had any problems."

That's what we are saying. You are the one who mentioned 'Plant it high'.

Hi Zack, I don't 'zone push' and I have zero experience with frost heaving. I see people advising planting deep and I never see a qualifier for drainage

It is the softer more delicate plants that show the most immediate trouble with planting a little deep. If that new basal break on your rose is injured below the soil line, than it is susceptible to infection from the soil. The oxygen level in the soil drops off quickly with soil depth, the roots from the roses will seek and end up in the proper level for oxygen. A rose can even break new roses along the stem if needed, but this is why we plant high, so that the plant does not need to go through all this trouble when it is also adjusting to its new home.

Lucille, I'm sorry that I did not make myself clear. I used to plant low and now I don't . I changed because as a landscaper, I learned new techniques, they work better so now I don't plant low.

The drainage issue is usually addressed in selecting a location for roses.

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/southerngarden/rosejanne.html
Good drainage, both
surface and subsurface, is essential in a rose bed. Roses do not like 'wet
feet.' Poor drainage usually can be corrected by installing a tile drain
system, or by planting in raised beds using redwood or masonry framing. In much
of the Gulf Coast area, the beds must be raised as much as 12 inches above the
surrounding soil surface to provide the necessary drainage

Hybrid teas typically need to be in Zone 7 or higher to survive winters with exposed crowns. There are a lot of folks in Zone 5 and 6 that would like to grow them. The nurseries around here aren't much help--most of my cane hardy old garden roses were purchased from Pickering, which is now out of business.

Sorry Zack, you have more faith in the average Rose grower on this forum than I do.

I think that I should amend my advice for now to "own root roses" only. Even here on the hot humid south, how high or low to plant the bud union is controversial . At work we only plant own root roses.

We're starting to grow all our own roses. Disease stress here is extremely high, plus we have problems with fluctuating winter temps. We range from the teens to the eighties in the winter so die back from canker is a real problem. We can only grow vigorous roses here if we dont want to spray and we don't spray. There is some overlap of varieties that grow well both in my zone and yours. Maybe in the future we can help folks like you out with supplying some cane hardy roses.

"Sorry Zack, you have more faith in the average Rose grower on this forum than I do."

People come here to read, to learn. While teaching and posting good ideas and experience is helpful, expressing lack of faith is unnecessary, imho.

Hi Lucille, I am sorry once again that I had not made my meaning clear to you. I was trying to express the opinion that we should not assume when giving advice that everyone who posts to this forum has made sure that the "surface and subsurface" drainage of their rose bed has been adequately addressed.

Yes, but you are in Florida. That would not work here in the frozen north. Here what is best is to have as much surviving wood as possible after winter. It's no different than sticking a green cutting in soil too root a new rose. I've lost more than my share of own root roses that where planted to high and I did not notice. Have lost any since Northland Rosarium mentioned burying them deeper. It's a very good idea to go deeper if you have winter weather.

Florida is different in that nematodes are an issue--so much so that you can get roses grafted on nematode resistant fortuniana--but that rootstock can't take the cold up here.
https://nelsonsfloridaroses.com/history/our-rootstock/

Marci Martin accidentally experimented with very deep planting and found no issues with doing so--she does live at the top of a hill so that drainage isn't an issue.
Marci's Profile on PlantersPlace

Sometimes I plant own roots deeper than 1 inch here and they still do fine... I have one rose that's 3 years old that I accidentally planted to high so I've been slowly raising the soil level instead of transplanting it deeper...lol

Yes, blanket statements about what is "best" to do regarding almost any rose issue are always wrong - somewhere. The longer I garden the more I realize that gardening is like real estate - the most important thing is "location, location, location". I have found out what is best to do in my garden by my own now 25 years of rose growing experience in my garden. It took me a few years to realize that many of the "rules" of proper rose gardening simply did not work here at all. Especially those you used to find in the ARS magazine, or in books written in England or the US East Coast!

Over generalization happens not only by folks thinking that what works for them where they are will work anywhere, but also by people who think that what works for HTs will work for all roses. Ha! That is the worst rule making thing I have run into - people who say "roses", when they really mean "HT roses". Here in our warm coastal CA climate, I grow over 120 roses, mostly repeat blooming OGRs such as teas, chinas, noisettes, along with some also warm weather loving hybrid musks, banksias, hybrid giganticas, and polyanthas. NONE of the old "rules" of rose growing work with them - none. So, I would advise taking local advice from rose growers near you who grow the same kind of roses you are trying to grow.

Jackie

Thank you Jacqueline for your comments. In my garden I plant OR roses the same level as the top soil in the pot. I tried following advice to plant them higher and I saw a decline in two weeks. I tried planting them and inch or two below the ground surface based on others opinions and again I saw a decline. Planting them the same level I have flourishing roses. I'm glad I found out what was best in my yard.

Interesting discussion... one part of the discussion that I have always wondered about is the abundance of oxygen at deep levels. I planted some grafted roses this weekend and was exhausted by the depth at which I have to dig to plant them so that the grafts are 2-3 inches below the soil surface (so roughly 6 inches below when you add mulch). I always wonder, how are the roots getting oxygen at 18 inches underground which is where they start and then continue growing deeper I'm sure? These grafted roses always do well and this is well established conventional wisdom for cold climates. So what gives?

I also plant the own roots at least 1-2 inches below such that the lower parts of the canes are buried a little.

So what makes roses different then other some other plants is that they can readily grow anventitious roots, roots growing out from the stem. When a rose it buried much deeper than it was in a pot, it can grow roots higher on the stem, this could explain why a rose can survive being planted quite low.

When I said I plant it high, I did mean though the root ball was planted an inch above the ground, when you factor in 3 inches of mulch the rose is not really "high" but about 2 inches below the new level of the bed. The advantage of planting high, is that the roots that are near the top of the soil will quickly spread into the lighter more airy mulch. The supporting roots are anchoring the plant in the more dense soil keeping the plant physically stable. This is the way we plant all our plants at work and we do not prep the soil except to remove vegetation and grade for drainage. The mulch we use is always pine bark. The plants grow very quickly and have a loss rate close to zero.

I think is a very valid point that planting in a soil that has been enriched to make it well drained may give exactly the same results as the planting method that I described.

I live where the ground seldom freezes and never more than a couple of inches down. Freeze protection here can mean misting a plant all night so that that water is continually freezing, keeping the temperature from falling below 32 degrees inside the ice. This must be done until the outside temperature rises enough to melt the ice or you will end up with a plant popsicle. And no, I am not proposing this method of freeze protection for colder climates.

I am interested to know why an inch or two deeper would make a difference to the freeze protection of the plant. Doesn't the soil freeze way below the first couple of inches and wouldn't getting the roots and stems up into some lighter well drained material help keep the plant from being frozen in what is essentially a block of ice? Do roses plant this deep grow roots higher up the stem? (I know that they do in Florida and that is why I will plant a grafted plant low in hopes in getting it to root above the graft to make it an own root plant) . Just trying to figure this out, without actually having to live in the frozen tundra.

I can address your questions in the last paragraph...

-the growing of roots above the crown on buried stems is invalid in the case of grafted roses because, until roots are grown from the graft which can take years, the shank of that root stock can't grow any roots because the bud eyes on the shank are typically removed as the grafted plant grows (before it is sold) to ensure that the root stock does not send up its own growth.

-the soil can freeze all the way down to 3 feet here, it can happen in the severe winters. Planting even just a couple of inches below ground is not about freeze protection - it is to ensure the stability of a frozen state. Constant freeze-thaw cycles do a lot of damage to plant tissue, we can have winter days when we go from a low of 8F to a high of 55F in mere hours... and then back down to a low of 15F in hours again. Planting a couple of inches below the soil protects the graft or crown from these erratic temperature changes because due to the mass of the earth, soil temperature does not swing like that. In the scenario I stated above, the soil temperature at 2 inches below would stay below frozen even when ambient temperature hits 55F because that temperature uptick does not last long enough to warm up even the top inches of the massive earth.

Consider yourself blessed to live in a climate of a growing season of 10 months and no frozen tundra lol... gardening in zone 5 is rough, I can't even imagine what the zone 2-4 folks go through, I do know this, if I ever go to garden in zones 8-10 I will lose my mind on so much less work I'd have to do!!

I can only say that in my own experience, here in southeast Texas, planting high seems to be problematic. We sometimes have heavy rains that wash and erode the soil terribly quickly and roots of shrubs (including roses) are invariably exposed to the bright sunshine that follow these storms. It is not uncommon to see landscaped yards with varying degrees of shrubs in decline due to high planting. Yes, if the mulch/soil is quickly replaced, that works out OK, but often people have neither the time nor inclination to correct the problem immediately. I am not suggesting to people how deeply to plant their roses, I am sharing my own observations and knowledge gained when I owned my own plant nursery.

Molly

Thank you Braverichard for the answer. It does make sense. I wonder if native roses that are growing in the wild in cold climates have a "crown" that is underground or if they have roots specifically adapted for growth deeper than southern natives.

This could explain why grafting is needed on some plants in cold climates, maybe the root stock must be a variety of that can be planted deeply.

I grow some hardy roses varieties and I think I'll do some exploratory digging to see if the roots are different from my roses that originate in more tropical climates. If this true this might help developing more drought tolerant Roses. My problem is that in our sandy soil, the top 4" of the soil can be wet in the morning and be bone dry by noon. Being able to plant more deeply could really help.

Up in New England, telling people to bury the grafts is the easiest way to significantly reduce winter kill--it isn't unusual for newbies to lose half their roses in a single winter. Some of the issues with alternate methods.

Compost--rots the roses over winter.

Leaves--wet winter turns them into a slimy mush that encourages rose canker.

Voles like your winter protection as bedding material--what a deal--bed and breakfast!

Storing the roses in the garage over the winter--you forget to water them and the voles strip the canes.

You're welcome. As for the wild roses, no, they don't have a deeper crown but they are tough and can withstand those freeze-thaw cycles and as you suggested, they probably do have roots that grow deeper. The hardier plants can take the freeze-thaw cycles as long as they are on their own roots. Grafts on the other hand, even a graft between a scion that's very hardy and a root stock that is also very hardy is a weak point. If that graft gets damaged too much it is dead. Roots have evolved over time to be incredibly tough to destroy. Notice how many people move plants all the time, forget one tiny piece of root and the next year they see growth coming from that tiny piece. That's why own root roses are very popular for us cold zoners now, you can lose 99% of a plant crown to severe winter damage and still see it come up from some tiny root that didn't get damaged.

I've discovered this when I dug up plants, you see the old crown and a new crown, with the old crown rotting away. Sometimes you wonder why a plant is "taking so long" to come up this spring but little do you know that the "original plant" is dead and what is coming up is a new shoot from perhaps a deeper part of the root system which avoided winter damage. This is the beauty of own root plants for a cold climate. Some folks on here like Patty W. zone 5a Illinois only have own root roses and that is a smart move being in zone 5.

I still plant a lot of grafted plants because I want instant gratification lol and thus sometimes cannot give band sized or 1 gallon own roots the time they need to get big, but overall among my roses 60% are own root and that number would be higher if not for my impatience lol.

Thanks Zack and Braverichard . I appreciate all the information, it does give me a lot to think about. I've been growing roses for 30 years. I have 3 grafted roses out of about 200 hundred roses. I think own root roses are better for my climate too. What is interesting to me is that some my best roses will also survive in zone 5. I can't think of another perennial plant where we would have the same variety.