commercial interests supported by marketing. What drives our system..

Antique roses have been around for centuries-; "knockouts" have been around for maybe ten years. Think about that!!!!!!! Seriously, these old garden roses have survived totally without care in ancient cemetaries, etc.The job of people that work in garden centers is to sell the products that they carry; they are not in probabaly 99% of the cases, people who have real knowledge and experience with roses. Good for you to have bought some of the antique ones!!!

The real issue is that the OGRs that thrive here are once bloomers. There are a couple of repeat bloomers that are hardy enough and healthy enough to grow, but you do have to be careful. There have been garden centers that have tried to sell hardy OGRs, but it is truly an uphill battle. How many once bloomers have you bought?

Just for discussion purposes, knock outs are NOT disease free everywhere. I have over 120 roses, about 70% of which are old old roses. The old ones get hardly any diseases here. I bought one knock out, and (which I hardly EVER do!) had to shovel prune it after 2 years, because it was constantly covered with mildew and blackspot.

Jackie

I guess damask perpetuals and quite a few repeating bourbons and HPs should be hardy to zone 6. No?

Hardy, yes, but not at all disease resistant. Damask crud isn't called that because HTs get it. Hardy bourbons are the only roses I've seen get blackspot even before they get flower buds, and most HPs need a spray program *and* an understock.

Believe it or not, when we first started seriously growing roses and met the local rosarians, even the OGR people sprayed. That we could have the rose garden we have without spraying blew people away. But our repeaters are modern shrubs like Explorers, not OGRs.

I guess it matters which you grow. For me, the Bourbon 'Souvenir de Victor Landeau' is one of the cleanest roses I have -- in NJ, without fungicides. 'Honorine de Brabant' and 'Mme de Sevigne' are almost as clean. Bourbon-like Hybrid Perpetual 'Pierre Notting' stays rather clean as well. Of the Damask Perpetuals, the best for me is 'Rose du Roi -- original', but I had only a few until some new ones arrived this year.

:-)

~Christopher

It's the cold climate experts here who are commenting about hardiness and disease resistance; I can't better what they say. But about once-blooming roses: I've always grown a lot of them, even though I've done all my gardening in various zone eights. They're among the most beautiful roses, and they're easy. I make a garden where the ornamental qualities aren't supplied solely by flowers, and I design for succession of bloom from different plants. I suppose it depends on what you find beautiful. If you think the old roses are, you can grow them and be happy doing so. Go for it.

Hi, Christopher! You mention Mme. de Sevigne,a rose I'm considering getting myself...I'll start my own thread about this,to avoid hi-jacking the present thread; I hope to hear from you!

I gave up on hybrid teas and floribundas here in NY, few survived the winter for me. I wanted a super cold hardy rose, so I looked into old garden roses. After a bit of research, I found that albas seemed to be a good choice, they are very cold hardy, not fussy and the roses have that wonderful rose fragrance. True, my alba only blooms once, but when it does, its a beautiful sight, a mass of fragrant pink roses. I had to order it online, no local nurseries carry the old garden roses unfortunately. They stock what people want to buy, most people want everblooming roses. I like them too, but don't care to replace them every year.

Mad Gallica: How many once bloomers have you bought?

I've bought or been given quite a few, and if I ever buy more roses, they will be once-bloomers--York & Lancaster, Common Moss, Unique blanche, and Shailer's White Moss.

I can't say enough about the hardiness, fragrance, color, and form of once-blooming Old Garden Roses. They have been by far the easiest and most successful of all of my roses, with the exception of a few species and early Chinas/Teas/Noisettes. The more complicated and later the breeding of the China classes, the more trouble I seem to have with them, but the early China hybrids are easy, too.

Lindsey

I have found it interesting how sometimes some of the older roses can be found. I see a lot of Hybrid Teas being revisited from earlier years and my local nursery has R. foetida persiana and Austrian Copper this year along with Cecile Brunner and some older Hybrid Teas. I went yesterday intending on getting the Austian Copper and R. foetida but got wowed by a 'Fourth of July' and its companion 'Purple Splash', flashy roses I will find a spot away from my pastel pinks :). I will go back, if only to encourage the nursery to delve into the species and other not so commonlu seen roses. The other nursery in town had Morden Blush which I bought, so nice to get a big healthy own root in a 5 gallon for about the same I would've paid for a band ordering on-line. I would love to see more but once bloomers are not what the majority of people will buy. Perhaps bare root but I am seeing fewer bare-roots in the nurseries and more where they pot up they bare roots themselves. I think, unfortunately, many of those in the upcoming generation have no idea how to treat a bare-root plant.

I was just thinking today that the most beautiful rose I have might be Alba Maxima. Once-blooming, plain-jane white, it's like the Katharine Hepburn of my garden.

The buds on mine tend to turn brown and rarely open properly. I don't know why--this is not a problem I've had with other old roses.

Lindsey

I'm in a warmer zone and I love teas and noisettes. They have more disease resistance than most modern roses and are much prettier than KOs. I drove by a home yesterday that had taken out the front lawn and planted all KO roses (with red mulch!) and while I appreciate the effort, they could have done with a little variety. Do not cave and listen to the nursery (most of them know nothing about roses, but just want to sell what the growers send them).

Thank you everyone for your comments. I didn't purchase a ton of ogrs. I have boule de neige and souvenir mal Maison and reine de violette coming. I managed to keep a chlotilde soupert and Cecile Bruner alive since last year so I'm feeling pretty optimistic. I also got a rugosa bare root this year that is looking amazing so far. I am going to try some once bloomers next year when I can clear some more space. I am really digging Madame plantier but I keep reading great things about Alba maxima. Madame de sevigne looks awesome and that was added to my long list a month ago. I think I just get sick of seeing knock outs everywhere and think that in 30 years from now those will be the only roses left. I feel like gardening is becoming a lost art and when I drive around in my neighborhood I am the only house with flowers.

But knock-outs are getting knocked out by Rose Rosette Disease, for some good reason they are particularly vulnerable.

Anne that's right and that's another reason I don't want them on my yard.

The only reason they are 'particularly vulnerable' is because there are a lot of them. Based on what I have seen and heard, the roses that seem to be particularly vulnerable are wichurana hybrids.

To add to the above, what also makes Knock-Out and similar roses vulnerable is that they're marketed as "easy care landscape shrubs". As such, they aren't tended to as much as "garden roses", and infection will go unnoticed for a longer time. That they're also planted in drifts/multiples means that several may get infected before anyone notices and does something about it. So it's not so much that they're inherently more susceptible. It's that they're currently popular as a type of landscape plant that doesn't need much attention.

:-)

~Christopher

Knockouts are bred to be colorful and easy. These are not at all bad qualities. But many older roses match or even surpass them.

Not technically OGRs, the class of polyanthas outstrips them easily. Jim Delahanty, formerly of this forum, was a knowledgeable collector who persuaded many of us to try them. If I wanted some easy roses and wanted something more interesting than the Knockout tribe, I would look at polyanthas.

Here are a few popular polyanthas to consider: Marie Pavie, Marie Daily, Baby Faraux, White Pet (aka Little White Pet), Leonie Lamesch, Exellenz von Schubert, Jean Mermoz, Margo Koster, Borderer, Clotilde Soupert, Gardendirector Otto Linne, Perle d'Or (gets very big), and Verdun.

Most of these do not have a lot of fragrance, Marie Pavie and Perle d'Or being noteworthy exceptions. But then, either do the Knockout roses.

For me the original question "Why does everyone just sell knock outs everywhere? Why can't you buy a reine de violette or boule de neige at your local nursery?" is interesting because that's one of the reasons buying old roses and species roses is so fascinating to me. You have to really look for them. And when you find them, it's special. I remember last year I was rummaging around a local garden center/greenhouse/farm supplies shop, and I was rooting through their rose "section" (a bunch of neglected-looking pots in a corner somewhere) because I will ALWAYS look through all the roses in a garden center even though I really do not need even one more. I go through them like I'm in a vintage clothing shop, just scanning the rack to see if there's a treasure, you know how it is. And in amongst the HTs (very popular here, practically the only thing anyone grows), there was a wee little rosa canina.

So I picked it up, hugged it, put it on the cart, and took it home. Now it lives on our slope.

And I will always remember when I found it in the garden center, a special delicate little treasure, a wonderful surprise....

And almost all of my ogrs and species roses have a story. I had to seek them out, drive two hours to get them, have cuttings made, and so on.

Maybe I'm just sentimental but isn't that part of the glory of it?

Oh and as a sidenote, speaking of colourful and easy: Rosa canina + spanish broom = DELIGHTFUL! This combo was planted as a hedge on a roadside near my house and this year the plants are finally big enough to see the effect and it is AMAZING. Colourful and easy!

If you want OGRs there are mail order nurseries that specialize in them. Rogue Valley, Rose Petals Nursery, Roses Unlimited, Greenmantle Nursery, Burlington Roses. They are excellent sources.

While it's not an original observation, I think it may be worth repeating here, that many gardens are full of once-blooming shrubs, with which one achieves as long a season of interest as possible by careful planning around their blooming cycles. Yet with roses, simply because more modern repeat bloomers do exist, there is somehow the perception of being short-changed if there's no repeat bloom. With a bit more education, perhaps people might realise that roses are basically shrubs like any other, and plan around integrating them into their year round planting schemes.

Many once-blooming and sparsely-repeating roses in fact have clear advantages over both other once-blooming shrubs and repeat-flowering modern roses, in that they frequently offer other elements of interest and delight - for example, beautiful fruit (hips), autumn (fall) foliage, interestingly coloured canes and prickles, attractive foliage and sepals, and graceful habit that blends easily with other garden plants. The flowers themselves, which may cover the plant from top to bottom, have a tremendous variety of size, form, texture and subtle colouration, along with beautiful and distinctive central arrangements of reproductive organs (stamens, anthers, stigma, etc), green/button eyes and truly magical perfume.

Not wishing to offend anyone, but with many of the better marketed and therefore more popular modern roses all you get for your money is a stiff, upright, bare-legged bush with boring leaves and very brightly coloured flowers on top. Of course it's 'horses for courses', but I know which kind I prefer.

Comtesse :-)

I have some once bloomers. My Veilchenblau is putting on a show right now!

Last year I fell in love with some crested moss roses and put them in a bed that gets lots of early spring sun, but then shade as the tree nearby leafs out. I wouldn't put a repeat flowering rose there because it wouldn't bloom after spring, so it's perfect. I do prefer repeat bloomers as the best blooms I get on some of my roses in in the fall.

I still have a few once bloomers, but I do require excellent health and a longish period of bloom to justify their presence. Many of the once bloomers seem to want more winter chill than they can get in my garden. One by one as they fail to thrive, I have removed them. Alas. I can see the writing on the wall for one or two still here.

One that does exceptionally well for me is Rambling Rector, just now coming to the end of its flush. I love this rose. Healthy and robust, and the display lasts for weeks, not days, as is the case for some once bloomers.

Rosefolly

I'm in zone 4, but we don't have humidity (except at night) so no diseases or mildew. I have many old garden roses and they've done quite well. I don't give them any winter protection, so I stick mainly with damasks and gallicas...but rugosas are lovely, too : )

Anna-Lyssa, I totally get your comment. I think you are right...it is really fun to seek them out. I am also a huge vintage clothes shopper. I love thrift stores and the thrill of thing. I used to tour as a musician and I always bought stuff on the road and they always have a story. I never made the connection with plants but now I will and it will make it so much more fun. Roses will become like vintage sun dresses, you can always squeeze in one more.

thank you everyone who h sold me on the once blooming ogrs. I will start to giv them a try. Upon this springs observation, I have a section of my yard that gets way more sun than I thought. It has been very neglected, we bought our house pretty recently, it is covered in ivy and poison ivy..I learned that the hard way. However, with some work it will make a great rose garden and I can fit plenty of ogrs.

gibsongirl, a kindred spirit!

I just took a photo of my Alba Maxima for you. It's in the "secret garden" (i.e. unfinished disaster garden). It has been moved once (after it nearly died planted next to some evergreens), survived a cyclone that uprooted nearby cypresses and telephone poles, and has so far withstood extreme neglect in the far reaches of the "secret garden"

I have about 30 once bloomers, including species roses. I love them. I usually grow some clematis with them that bloom after the roses do . I find the OGRs very easy to care for.

And that may be why garden centers shy away from selling them -- they are hardy enough to rarely need replacing, and they don't need "other products" to keep them happy. So that means fewer "maintenance" sales for the big box stores.

;-)

~Christopher

No. They don't sell them because people don't buy them. I've tried to push them at plant sales, and I've talked to nursery people who have tried to sell them. It is an uphill battle. They do not look good in pots, and locally nurseries don't tend to have display gardens.

I've spent more than enough years trying to *give* once bloomers away to know that it isn't easy. Asking them to part with money for them? Even Pickering found that difficult.

That is sad, Mad Gallica. Sad but unfortunately true.

Mad gallica you are right. They were a tough sell for me initially but I grow irises that only bloom for a month and it is worth it so I think I will enjoy the once blooming ogrs in the same way.

Christopher I think you are right too. There is a lot of money to be made in chemicals for diseased roses.

When I first started growing roses in 2003, I decided, if possible, to get the oldest representatives of each class---ie Gallicas, Damasks, Portlands, Albas, Centifolias, Noisettes, Chinas, and Teas. Along the way to that goal, however, I purchased or was given many other varieties. While I have plenty of space, I don't have a lot of sun, so many of my roses suffered in the shade and some of the tender roses, especially Teas, have declined and eventually died over the past several winters. Deer were a problem, too, although development in the area is gradually driving them away and after losing nearly a dozen large trees in a storm three years ago, roses in the center of the back garden finally have enough sun. The result has been an explosion of color and beauty from the once-bloomers at the north end of the garden. Suckers are popping up everywhere this spring and some of the original plants have grown so large that I will be forced to prune them for the first time. (Until last year, the deer pruned them so hard they rarely bloomed.)

In 2003, I was more interested in the oldest repeat-bloomers, but beauty is as beauty does, and the once-bloomers have more than earned first place in my garden. Convincing others to try them is hard, yet I'm convinced that anyone willing to give them a fair trial in the right climate would soon come to love these tough, fragrant beauties.

Lindsey