Jerijen,

Your opinion is much appreciated. It is a fact that OGR defenders are vocal about their views. I stand behind every word I wrote. Personal experience is the best teacher.

Moses

“Old roses have horrible growth habits, poor to no repeat, disease prone foliage, very short bloom life, poor bloom weather resistance.....you name it, they're subject it, with very few exceptions.”

Most of these complaints apply equally to many, many selections in the Hybrid Tea/Floribunda classes as well. I find that most modern/HT defenders are also quite vocal about their opinions, and are often quite dismissive of Roses that do not fit their concept of “ideal”.

Moses, if this is your attitude towards OGR types, then why do you participate in any of the Antique Roses discussions at all??!

What an interesting conversation! I do know that fragrance is very subjective, as everyone has pointed out, and I’ve just decided I’ll figure it out for myself. I myself swoon over a fragrant bloom, but I’m also addicted to color, and love the rich hues expressed by rose petals. I just took a count this weekend, and stopped at 100—how did this happen??

Well, I just love roses. Every type. I love OGR climbers, even if they only bloom once, because that makes the bloom so much more precious. I love moderns like Fragrant Cloud for its amazing scent, and Munstead Wood for its rich color. I love the history behind Noisettes and Teas, and the fact that I can have a 300 year old rose in my garden is just delightful. I love singles, and cupped roses, minis and button-centered flat blooms. I love gorgeous colors without scents, and muted pastels with rich fragrance. I really enjoy all this diversity, so I don’t limit myself to any class. I want to experience every manifestation of the wonder of the Rose. It’s what brings me so much joy when I walk through my garden. :-)

Well, after my gushy response I realized that I DO limit myself—only based on my zone, and only to a certain extent, in regards to health. I haven’t explored gallicas or damasks, and bourbons are very limited in my garden for that reason.

Health is probably my most discerning element, since I garden with many creatures and therefore avoid any treatments that could harm them. I’ll research extensively, but if I’ve fallen in love with a Rose, I’ll still give it a chance in the no-spray microclimate of my garden. :-)

Sure! Perma -- IMHO, you're on the right track.

All ANY of us needs to remember is that one person's awkward plant is another's perfection. And a plant (rose or other) that is lovely and disease-free in one person's microclimate is a disaster in someone else's.

Some people hate roses altogether.

That's their privilege. I disagree with them, and think that a lack of subtlety robs them of much ... but they can believe what they want to believe.

All that said, someone who has decided that they loathe all Old Roses should probably visit a forum more to their liking.

Uh, he probably was. Houzz, in their "infinite wisdom" now permit all forums to be posted to at once so this post was in both old and new rose forums.

Moses, there is no such thing as an "OGR", except in the arbitrary opinion of the ARS, which is based on strictly on dates.

There are many many classes of "old roses". Some are better in freezing winter climates such as yours (most of the old European roses HATE my climate, which does not have enough winter chill hours for them - I can say the same for most tulips). Many of the repeat blooming types of old roses, such as the chinas and teas, only thrive in warm weather (with only MILD, mostly non freezing winters) climates, which would exclude yours altogether. It appears from your comments that the importance of choosing roses which love the particular climate where they are to be grown was not considered when the failed old roses were planted in your garden. That is unfortunate, but it does not make your way too general comments correct.

(BTW, I have never seen anyone comment that "old roses have no winter dieback" in cold winter climates. That would be a ridiculous statement. It would totally depend on the TYPE of old rose, of course. Most of the warm weather loving old roses I grow, if moved to your climate, might DIE altogether in your winters, not just die back. On the other hand, there are rugosas, which is an old type of rose, which thrive on the coast of Maine 12 months of the year, going so far as to naturalize there.)

It is good that you have found roses which do like your climate - congratulations! Trying to grow any sort of plants which are not suited to your growing conditions can only result in failure and frustration, so your disappointment is understandable. Keep growing roses (and other plants) which succeed in your garden - that is how I figured out that roses have climactic preferences - trial and error. Unfortunately, most rose books and catalogues will not give you the proper information on that subject.

Jackie

Nevertheless, posting to an OGR-oriented forum that you find Older Roses to be ugly or objectionable is rather like walking up to someone in a park, and saying: "Madame, your children are ugly and stupid."

Oh Jeri! LOLOL!

Although Mrs B R Cant might not be technically a OGR (1901), she is still pretty old lol. I really love her fragrance. I think she is one of my all time favorites. She is disease free. She looks like a Valentine's Day Sweetheart and smells just like candy!

Pretty hot for an older chick! :)

Moses is, unfortunately, in an area that is too cold for most of the well-repeating old roses such as Chinas, Teas, and Noisettes. So that leaves Bourbons and Hybrid Perpetuals and the handful of repeating Damasks and Mosses, which have some real zingers in there as far as health goes -- but also many that do well. However, this leaves mostly once-blooming roses of the old roses that will grow in his zone, and they then have to contend with the hot and humid summers in this area. I'm a bit further south and closer to the ocean here in NJ, making my gardening zone 7a, so I can enjoy those old roses that love our Summers but hate our Winters, and here, Chinas and Teas didn't get much or any disease for me, save for a touch of mildew on some in Spring that mostly went away on its own. So while Moses' assessment of old roses in his area may be accurate for the types that can survive his Winters, I do wish he'd have qualified his statements with "the old roses I've grown" or "the old roses that can grow here" or something to that effect, rather than just lumping all old roses together and stating it as an "it is so" statement.

The roses he touted as being superior get rather naked a my job, where I DO spray. However, the handful of Chinas and Teas and Noisettes in the collection remain "rudely healthy" once they've recovered from what Winter took away, and they bloom a lot. There are also some Polyanthas from the late 19th and early 20th Centuries that, in my opinion, function as successful bedding plants for a longer period of the growing season than most of the Floribundas, since the Polys are generally healthier and bloom longer. Lin, you probably remember seeing 'Borderer' in the Polyantha beds in the center of the middle section at my job -- that rose looks brand new, but it's about 100 years old, being a Wichurana-based Poly bred by Alister Clark. Of course, there are also quite a few newer roses that do very well all season, but they're not typically Floribundas or Hybrid Teas. One rose I always mention to someone asking me questions at work is 'Limoncello', which keeps all its leaves, always has flowers, and which hasn't been dead-headed all season. It's not strongly fragrant, however, but for a colorful healthy shrub, it's pretty good. But I also point out "Maggie" which, to me, is a great "compromise" between a healthy red China and a fragrant Bourbon, having the best traits of both.

I like the old roses and give them more attention because I think they still have their place within a garden. And because I think they're not as well-known, I tend to try to compensate by pointing them out. But the newer roses have their place in gardens where they fit. When I get asked for rose recommendations by park patrons, I first ask them what they want the rose to do, the general shape of the plant, is it for garden color or blooms for the vase, etc. There are many applications of old roses that wouldn't work for modern roses, and also vice versa. Personally, I'm not drawn to the formal style gardens like where I work, but if one was, it's hard to do that with just old roses. And if you're like me and enjoy roses within mixed gardens, the old roses work well when utilized as "flowering shrubs" or "flowering climbers" or otherwise utilized as their growth habits are. But even HTs and Floribundas can work this way as well -- how many times do we see a stiffly upright perennial chosen as a focal point for a mixed garden? Well, a stiffly-upright HT can do that as well.

:-)

~Christopher

Paul,

I have not posted on the Antique Rose site for years. If any of my posts have appeared there let me know which ones, please.

Moses

This thread was posted both on the Antique Roses and general Roses forums.

:-)

~Christopher

Moses. This one, clearly, did.

@Moses: I am only concerned with the rather dismissive post you made here today. Your attitude doesn't encourage me to seek out others.

It might be wise to watch where HOUZZ is putting your posts.

Paul,

When I cannot express myself freely, without being bombarded with a torrent of objections from fellow Roses Forum members who do not like what I have to say, particularly when it escalates to ad hominem attacks, as in you, Paul, referring to my "attitude," perhaps it's time for me to say good-bye to the Houzz Garden Web.

Moses

Moses, I think the issue is that while stating your experiences, you did so in an absolute "it is so" way, rather than in an "in my opinion and garden, modern roses work better" way. Your last two paragraphs in your first post in this thread came across as stating that your opinion and experiences were just how it is, and to disagree would mean we're either fooling ourselves or lying. We all have different tastes, expectations, and conditions, so one person's "superior" is likely not another's. That's fine. But you wrote as though we must have all had the same experiences as you, which is not the case. And that's what caused the ruffled feathers.

:-)

~Christopher

" jerijen

Nevertheless, posting to an OGR-oriented forum that you find Older Roses to be ugly or objectionable is rather like walking up to someone in a park, and saying: "Madame, your children are ugly and stupid." "

Even if they ARE? (ducking and running for cover! LOL!)

Houzz didn't put the post anywhere. The original poster cross posted it to both Roses and Antique Roses.

If (IF) this forum ever was to have a moderator, Christopher would be my choice.

I accessed this discussion from the Roses forum. Like most posters here, I did not initially realize that it was also posted in a second forum.

Houzz did not force this discussion to be posted in 2 forums.

Kim, that appears to be a default which must be actively declined when posting by un-clicking the Houzz-suggested forum. If you do nothing, it goes where the Houzz software thinks it should go, in addition to the forum you choose.

:-)

~Christopher

Perhaps there is some setting which makes it that way, Christopher, but when I post, if I want it in more than the one, I must enter the ones I wish it to appear in.

I have not been getting any notifications of posting on this thread, why is that? I did get notified of the two likes of the discussion. Why is that????

First Moses: Please do continue to post what you think and what is your personal experience. No matter what others say it is fully understood what you are saying is your opinion only, and come with whatever strengths and limitations...... Unless you put it within quotes and site a reference. And so you stated your opinion based on your experience. I am not at all offended by what you said. I did want comments from your personal experience. And I welcome it. I think a concern may be that someone writes something totally wrong and others are misled by it. However, I, and I bet most people here, are circumspect and judicious enough not to make up there minds regarding any rose group from one assertive comment. If they are deeply influenced about say OGRs by one comment on a forum open to the public and unmoderated by any expert then their decisions are not worth much. I have to say I like both the rose forums very much. Like AquaEyes said in his last comment.....

I am getting some of the modern roses you mention here and in other posts to try out for myself. Thank you for mentioning them to me!

Katjajini, I am also not getting notification on most of the postposts I started or commented. Its It's been like that for the past 2 or 3 days.

roseseek, what you said is so true, If the 'antique' roses are here so, so, long then people must have found something in them worth growing. Survival of the loveliest! And I do think, specially after spending this season on the rose forums, there must be something in the new roses showing up every year that they are loved as much by the forum members.

to roseseek and Paul: I was of kind of arriving at what you are saying about fragrance components. In modern roses I smell many other 'notes' not just what I know or think to be THE scent of a rose. And that blend can be wonderful. More and more different fragrance genes are being bred into the newer roses and the rose scent does seem to get diluted.....I want to say something here that others may disagree....THE rose scent is one or several molecules. I think I get some kind of rapturous feeling. like a high, when I smell a classic rose. Later I read that at least for some people the rose scent can act as an antidepressant or create euphoria temporarily. That happens to me.

Thanks for Tiffany and others!!!!!

Katyajini,

Thank you for your response above.

My initial post was a personal experience statement in response to the opening sentence in your last paragraph: "Please comment what your FEELINGS are..." You concluded the paragraph with: ".... this is a completely subjective point of view and that IS what I would like to know."

I therefore let you know what my subjective feelings are. That's what you asked for. I'm glad your comment above expresses an appreciation of my directness, since again, that's what you wanted.

I am sorry many of the the other posters did not respond favorably to my post. Much time and energy was wasted on them excoriating me, when they could have better spent their energy answering your question.

It does show, however, the passion OGR devotees exhibit when a negativity, even a verifiable one, is expressed about an OGR.

Moses

Just now, as a test, I began to start a new discussion in the Rose forum. I titled it “Baubles, bangles, doorways, and beads”. The text consisted of 1 word: roses. Houzz assigned it to the Rose forum, and gave me the option of also selecting from their entire menu of topics, with a limit of 3( I think). It did not suggest/select any other topic (which I could then decline).

jerijenNevertheless, posting to an OGR-oriented forum that you find Older Roses to be ugly or objectionable is rather like walking up to someone in a park, and saying: "Madame, your children are ugly and stupid."

Moses is to be faulted for not recognizing that for some posters, roses are just like their children. bad Moses!

Everyone else thank you so much. Christopher you always educate me: Thank you! Sultry I am looking up your old chick. (someday someone is going to call me a old chick if they dont already, uuh shudder). Perma I am so much where you are almost word for word, maybe a just a little more inclined to want fragrance.

Rekha, I thought non-techie me is messing up. Maybe it will sort itself out?

I am actually interested in what Moses has to say, as he is an experienced rose grower -- even though I do love the old roses - and many new ones, too

Sometimes, all that's needed when expressing an opinion are a few simple words tacked on:

"In my experience....."

"Here in my area....."

"Personally, I think that..."

If one leaves those pieces out, one's opinion reads like one is stating irrefutable facts, which will incite argument from anyone who has had different experiences. But say "Here, these work best for me and my needs" or something to that effect and there's really nothing anyone else can argue.

Then there's the equal-and-opposite test -- substitute the opinion that's counter to yours, but leave the rest of the language, and see if that would bug you. For example, I know people in the south east who'd deride most modern roses as being disease magnets but praise the old ever-blooming Chinas, Teas, Noisettes, Polyanthas, etc. If one of them wrote a dismissal of modern roses based on those experiences but didn't qualify that, instead just saying that modern roses were a waste of time, that'd probably annoy some people as well, no?

Anywho, if you'd like something rather healthy and long-blooming and very fragrant that is old, you can't do much better than trying Rosa moschata in the single-form. Mine starts blooming right around July when most of the others have finished their first flush, then keeps going until frost. Winter hits it too hard to make much of it as a climber, but if you just prune out the damage and let it grow as it wants through the season, you'll have a nice small-to-medium blooming shrub that makes clove-scented flowers. And mine doesn't get blackspot. Use it as a scented focal point in a mixed garden with Summer-blooming perennials and you'll enjoy it. Since we're both in NJ, I figured that'd be something to suggest.

:-)

~Christopher

Jasmin, i have Mrs. B R Cant but I cant smell her maybe next year or Maybe it is my nose....lol.

I love the scent of Marie Pavie. I do get a little waft from Rose de Retch as i by pass her and also Baronne Prevost. it is weird that now i cant smell Maggie anymore maybe i got used to it bec it is always in bloom....who knows :}

Paul thanks for reminding me about Tiffany. She smells delicious when i visit Dr. Manners [2 yrs ago}. but i am curious, do you grow a climbing Tiffany. i wonder how she performs as a climber ?

Moses, i was looking at some of the roses you mention bec i was on Nelsons nursery homepage [ this morning } and thinking of getting a few But i heard so much about Bolero .

i love Mr. Lincoln that came with this house. it smells really good.

oh, i have tell you guys this story:

In the month of May. I keep smelling this beautiful and very heavy perfume scent and it wafts in the air. My husband who can never smell anything and i meant anything smell it and he brought me out. i try to smell my roses and could not detect anything. thought it was Marie Pavie but the scent was very different. so, i thought it must be my neighbor who has a huge Gardenia plant that is a size of a tree. Than i thought maybe it is my Magnolia tree at the front of the house. i told Lisa from day one. finally i called my neighbor and told her stand outside...she said she also smells it. she is 2 houses down. i ask about her Gardenia and if she smells it. She told me her Gardenia was not in bloom and she thought it was on my side [roses]. Days went by and the scent got stronger and stronger. wherever i go in my garden by the pool or way back in corner i can smell it but when i go in front was nothing. the next day, i saw where it came from. Very , very heavy saturated scent from little , little very tiny flowers. This plant also came with the house and i was ready to removed it and now i am keeping it for sure. i try to google up with help of Vap. figured out together. it is called Dracaena fragrans.

i will try to post the picture later . i tell you what, every flying insects was on that DF like tons of bees , wasps, Bumble bees....attracted so many pollinators and i could not pulled a stalk down to have a closer look. that pollinators were glue to it like magnet and i never got the chance to inspect it closer.

excuse the mess as it is untouch area of my little jungle.....lol.

this would be so much faster if Houzz is working properly. i miss my handy dandy phone.

Perma you are telling me that the corn plant has fragrant, crazy fragrant, flowers???

RdR so lovely but does not waft for me eithe.

Aqua: I am looking up Rosa moschata...

this is nuts sending pics as email to myself first. That is the area i was going to do a huge clean up. it is the strongest scent i have ever smell.

jin

Plumeria, I keep getting you mixed up with Perma, SORRY!!!!

You can knock me over with a feather. Thats a corn plant? The ones I see are about 2 feet. Simply awe inspiring. I have to visit FL again, very soon.

Christopher,

No preface was needed in my original post. I answered Katyajini's question as she requested....my feeling and subjectivity. That's all. I delivered. What more can be said?

Moses

"Tell me that antique roses are superior to modern roses, like: Evelyn, Double Delight, Pope John Paul II, Princess Charlene of Monaco, Bolero, Mr. Lincoln, Memorial Day, the list is endless... that they are inferior to any of the best Antique roses, and you are deceiving yourself, not me, anymore."

Subjective??

Fortunately, Paul, control of free speech "We" would like to implement, has not yet hit the Roses Forum. If "We's," wish came true, "We's," sentiments may turn against me, and likewise turn against "We".

Moses

i see both sides. You are both right, Jeri and Moses.

lets drop this topic bec threads like that should be done separately and not posted on both sides as one. I could see issues happening . . PLs....lets drop it .

katyahini, this is not your fault as you are very new here. People are from all over the States and Countries. different race, different ethnicity, different cultures , different lifestyles , different professions and we all are different in so many ways. So one person's opinion can hurt someone's feelings . We have lost a lot of forum members for whatever reasons. It is best to GOOGLE most of the questions or keep them separated . Topics like that should kept separated bec of many cultures and upbringings. Everyone is different and when you put them together [posted on both sides as together] it collides. That's why you see some of us goes on both sides of the forums and you will see some don't. It is kept separated for a reason . You will know who stays on Antique and who stays on Rose forum.

.

No one is leaving the forums bec We all love roses and that's the line.

i been sitting here thinking all this time and i have two people already posted after my comment. i am trying to write without pissing anyone else. SO , LETS be ROSE friends.

If I offended anyone than i am sorry and apologize ahead of time. we are all grown up's here.

Katy that is not a corn plant. it is called Dracaena Frangrans. or as cornstalk dracaena or happy plant. it is tropical to Africa. it can grow to 49 ft . you can find them in Hawaii too.

That 's okay. Perma and I knows that sometimes our names get juggle up so we are both understands or you write as Jin.

jin

sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida 9a) SAID:

"Although Mrs B R Cant might not be technically a OGR (1901), she is still pretty old lol. I really love her fragrance. I think she is one of my all time favorites . . . "

BUT SHE IS AN OGR!

ARS's official definition of "Old Garden Roses" is that ANY rose OF A CLASS OF ROSES that existed prior to 1867 is considered to be an "Old Garden Rose."

SO, if I were to introduce a Tea Rose, say next month ... it would be an "Old Garden Rose." And people HAVE created modern-born "Old Roses".

At the same time, Hybrid Musks and Polyanthas (as examples) are NOT "Old Garden Roses" because they did not exist as a class prior to 1867.

Why 1867? Because that was the date of the introduction of the first Hybrid Tea Rose -- The first "Modern Rose".

Jeri, you are right. i totally agree with you bec i love OGR so much that i keep googling them up . As a matter of fact, how rare do they get ? I remember Beth had collection of rare roses and i was wondering how she finds them. even. Virginia has put pictures of roses that i have never seen anyone growing. Wondering if they do exists ?

I think even the roses after 1867 or one year later as 1868 or 1869 is still old even tho they are consider not OGR like LA FRANCE . I cant say they are modern either....hahahaha.

jin

Jin -- ARS bases a lot of their information around rose shows -- and sometimes at their shows they have a class for "Classic" Hybrid Tea Roses.

The cutoff point for THAT category is 1945, because that's the year that 'Peace' was introduced in the U.S. ... and 'Peace' changed the "tone" of Hybrid Teas. That's when the high, tight center became vital -=-= and petal substance more important.

So, before that, you surely had 'La France' and 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam' , but you also had some wonderful things like 'Talisman' and 'President Herbert Hoover' and that whole range of Pernetiana Roses.

Okay, i was trying to find Queen Elizabeth rose because i have that rose growing in my backyard. it is very interesting about how many roses it took to make QE . It was very interesting like a chart above. Many, many roses but one that was interesting was a yellow rose found in Egypt. A few was unknown but a lots and lots of breeding [ Old ROSES} like the chart above. it was so complicated but very genius of Dr. Lambert.

So when i see modern roses i see a little more to that sometimes i wonder if it just me or some of you do think like i do. I really appreciate all type of roses bec of their Lineage.

i tried to look for the above rose on HMF but cant. if i ever find Queen Elizabeth chart...i will post it but i am hoping someone in my rose society has a copy of it. you will see so many old, old, old roses are put together.

jin

If you are a subscriber to HMF, you can look up lineages.

I can tell you that some of those early Hybrid Teas are DYNAMITE roses. I particularly like 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam' -- and that's one we've found in old cemeteries, so I know it's tough.

Of course, I have no clue how it would do in your conditions.

Jin I love your Dracaena fragrans! Some people do call them a 'Corn Plant' as a common name but its not the same as say, Corn plant that you eat lol. I love fragrant plants especially tropical ones. I have a michelia alba that is heaven on earth when it blooms. Think lemony gardenias with strong wafting fragrance!

Jeri, thank you for the clarification on Mrs B R Cant!

Lady Mary Fitzwilliam is so beautiful. I wonder if any of these Florida antique rose nurseries have it yet or if they will be getting it?

WOW, look at that beautiful. roses. Now, you got me checking out each rose on HMF. i pick up a lot as you recommended joining whatever rose society and I knew to join Antique. It was there i learned way more and appreciate like Modern roses bec they do talk about like Queen Elizabeth Rose which is the first Floribundas Rose [ i am pretty sure]. This year i join ARS maybe next time will be HMF.. Yes, you are right i am not a member .

i love all the roses you wrote and as usual you are killing me with their beauty. Lady M F is a stunner and looking thro all the pics. She is very beautiful . i guess i can call the nurseries and ask them since they are in FL. Thank you Jeri !!

i agree totally that early Hybrid teas are Dynamite :}

jin

Jin -- We found 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam' on the grave of a lady in an old, old cemetery in the Gold Rush country. She was buried next to her infant children ... And her name was MARY. You could just think of her family picking out that rose for her.

Here's Lady Mary in full bloom, in another old cemetery:

How did i miss your post Jasmin ? we must have cross path as i must be typing when you posted.

Rose Petals nursery is near you and the other is Angel gardens. it is sold as Whittle light Pink tea. Those blooms on the bush looks pretty big globular looking at Jeri's last pic.

jin

.

Yes. "Whittle Light Pink Tea" was the first study name, but we're all sure it's Lady Mary.