What I meant by "reading" is that alot of searches that I have done for kitchen related things have bought me to this site. I haven't specifically been reading the kitchen forums, just found the forum today. Wish I had discovered it awhile ago, but oh well...

Forgive my ignorance, but why is having the stove between the sink and fridge inefficient? What is the preferred location?

I'll work adding some dimensions to my top plan view, and add it here later.

Thanks,

Mike

Welcome to Kitchens. Functional order is from fridge, to sink, to prep area, to range, or what one of GW members dubbed ice, water, stone, fire (IWSF). With the addition of a prep sink in the island, though, your layout would work very well for two people. I like your perimeter layout, but the kitchen seems
narrow for a table with seating on both sides. What's the width of the kitchen?

Ice, Water, Stone, Fire http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

FYI - I think you can do better. Sure seems like a lot of opportunity at the window on the island side of the new plan. Is the wall at the entry door necessary?

Even if you leave the layout the same, you will be doing most of your prep in the space between the sink and cooktop. It LOOKS like it's large enough, but... it will feel closed in with the upper cabinets. I hate prepping in an area with uppers.

Then - when you want to clean up, you will be putting everything in the dishwasher WAY in the end - while it's convenient for taking dishes from the table, it seems that it's in no mans land.

Agree that you need a prep sink to break up the steps you'd have to take to "prepare" a meal. (although - you would get your steps in on the fitness tracker...) Put prep sink in the island and you make a much more efficient triangle and you won't be crossing paths with everyone. I think when you do that, it will also make this island the hub and people will WANT to hang out there.

I love that you are taking up this whole space and integrating a more informal dining space that will be USED so much more than a dining "room".

Have you thought about an L with a work island/no seating?

Kitchen · More Info

In addition to nightowl's IWSF link, there is good information on kitchen planning, aisle widths, etc. in the following links:

New to Kitchens? Read me first.

NKBA guidelines

Mama Goose - Its hard to give the exact dimensions of the new kitchen space, because the stairs intrude abit, and there is the bumpout for the kitchen window, and the short wall to the right of the front door. But in general its a 13'6" by 21'6" floor space, if you measure from the lower left corner by the powder room to the upper right corner in front of the dishwasher. I know seating will be tight. We are a family of 3 now, and maybe 4 in a year or two. Most of the time its just us eating, only have people over occasionally. Table show in the drawing is 3'9"x5'.

Nightowl - We were originally planning on putting a built in bench seat under the window, with pull out drawer storage underneath. Had to cut it to keep the budget in check. Will probably add some sort of furniture bench there in the future.

Jannicone - We never user our dining room until our 1st kids was born, then we had to because we could not all fit at a table in the kitchen. Exactly why I am wanting to remove the wall and open it up. Who needs a formal dining room in a townhouse?

Everyone - So the vibe I am getting is that I really need a sink in the island, and that would turn the island into an ideal open prep area. Logistically that would be easy, because the area under the island in the basement is unfinished and running plumbing there would be easier. Would I be better off moving my sink and dishwasher to the island, or putting in a small prep sink in the island and leaving the sink and dishwasher in its current location? If I go the route of putting a prep sink in the island, should I have it off to one side, close to the window? I really don't want to add any more cost to this remodel if I can help it.

Thanks...

Mama goose - Wow, I really really like that design. I have a gut feeling it would be more costly than my current plan, due to moving the sink and associated plumbing further towards the living room. Not a big fan of a corner cabinet either, the ones we have in our current kitchen are downright useless and only store rarely used items in them. I'm not sure if we could even make that big of a change at this point, but nothing has been signed or ordered, so maybe? I'd just hate to ask the contractor for another bid on that layout, because we had kinda verbally agreed on what we had was good.

If your fridge is standard depth, then you'd have about 10.5' for comfortable aisles and the 36" (m/l) island I drew.

A counter depth fridge would give you a few more inches, and you might be able to squeeze in seating on the island, although with two people working, it would be better to have a 48" work aisle. Normally, you'd need only 44" behind seating to walk past, but with traffic from the stairs, I gave you a few more inches, and made the work aisle 46". I accounted for a 1.5" overhang on the perimeter, and working side of the island, and 15" seating overhang.

I don't have a corner susan (I have a blind corner where I keep things I rarely need), but I've read that the super susans are much better than a regular lazy susan. GW discussions--super susans

You could also consider an option by GW member deedles, but customizing would add more to the budget:

deedles' kitchen with amazing storage capacity

Given how much money you are likely going to be spending on this project (and living with it for a very long time!) I would definitely ask if you are interested. If nothing has been bought or set it shouldn't matter too much. Since you are already paying to move the plumbing and stove I don't see how moving it a few more feet would add too much to cost. I like how MamaG's plan gives you room for the table near the window, and you won't be tripping over chairs to do your clean up.

What are the dimensions of just the bump out at the front of townhouse?

MamaG, I'm not sure how your layout would work with the table in that position. Here's an updated drawing with some dimensions. The blue rounded rectangle represents a 30" clearance around the table, it seems too tight. Not sure we would want a smaller table either.

Is the wall at the entry a structural wall or just used to create an entry? If it's not structural, I'd turn it into a pony wall instead to open it up more. Or it could become part of the banquet seating so you have an L shaped banquet. That would then allow the wall along the back to have more storage.

Here is my other idea which eliminates the prep sink. I don't think in such a small kitchen you need both. Also if you do all drawers for lowers, you'll find you'll have a lot more storage without increasing your space.

The living room is sunken? If so, by how much?

Are the windows in the bump-out high enough for a seat underneath? Combining my plan with cpartist's:

MamaG - 7' high ceiling in the bumpout. What would be between the entry wall and the built in seating?

benjesbride - Yes, the living room is sunken 1'.

cpartist - The wall at the entry is not structural(my guess). I thought about doing something with it, but I really like the idea of having an entryway. My previous townhouse the door just opened right into the living room, and I hated that.

What would be between the entry wall and the built in seating?

A pull-out for hats and gloves? Extra TP and paper towels? Table cloths and placemats? I'd say hidden cash, but we all know that after a kitchen remodel, you won't have any. ;)

What would be between the entry wall and the built in seating?

This project has an awesome set of built-ins between an entrance hall and banquette seating.

Classic with a modern touch White Kitchen Reveal

Here's another idea.

I personally like the dining table where it is. I do think, though, in such a small space you need a skinnier table--like 3'x 6'-- so your dining area only need be around 9'x12'. Our last house had a too small dining area with not enough walk around space and it drove me bananas; small dining room was a contributing factor of finding a new house.

If you could open up the wall/eliminate railing between dining and living and extend the step the full width it could make the whole space feel more open and more modern. Here's an example:

I appreciate not wanting to open the front door right into the living space (another reason I disliked our last house.) In addition to preserving an entry, it's nice to add some privacy to the powder room. You have the width for a two person galley style kitchen, so I took a run at that idea. The end of the counter nearest the stairs is open kind of like a peninsula. Our present kitchen has a similar wall cutout at the end of our galley and I like it. People tend to gather around that peninsula to visit, but stay out of the kitchen proper (which I like.) Iput a stool in the bump out for a perch while cooking or visiting with someone while they're working.

Thanks for all the great suggestions... Would my proposed layout work well if I just put a small prep sink in the island, close to the fridge?

Because I presume the potty will not move, I would want to keep the wall there.

Have you mocked up the clean up sink in the present dining room? Turn the dining table parallel to the long wall and put boxes or a piece of furniture where you want to put counters?

You have room for a proper dining room and I don't think you should compromise it. Especially since you're selling in five years; a proper dining is a big selling point to townhouse/condo buyers because they're often too small.

I think it would be unpleasant to have your dining table approximately 3 feet from your clean up sink. Also, the conflict between someone sitting at the table and loading/unloading the dishwasher would be annoying.

I'm always a dissenter here, but probably because I"m older than dirt! I couldn't care less about the arrangement of the sink/stove/refrig - I do what fits best in the space available and that often does not work except in a new build. What I DO like is lots and lots of counterspace, plenty of upper cabinets as well as lower (I have a TON of dishes), lots of light, a sink under a window, and a stove on an outside wall so it can be properly vented (if not on outside, there must be a pretty straight shoot out or even the best hood will not work well).

I've never had a kitchen big enough for an island but my daughter has one. If I did, I would not want ANYTHING on top of that island - no prep sink, no cooktop. I'm not a fan of prep sinks but perhaps the young eat way more fresh veggies than I do.

Kitchens are highly individual spaces. What works for one person may well drive another out of their mind. Think about what dishes/equipment you have, how you use your kitchen, and what matters to you. If you do, it should turn out right. No KD on earth can truly live in YOUR head!

Your original plan will work well if you just switch the sink and stove. You wouldnt need a prep sink on the island in that case.

If you are set on the original plan, I'd suggest a prep sink on the island corner nearer the fridge. Switching the sink and range would work well for one cook, but if you are at the range and need something from the fridge, you'll need to squeeze by your helper in the narrow aisle. No problem, especially if the helper is your wife, but if she has the DW open, then someone needs to wait. If you have a sink on the island, there's less conflict.

Since you have the existing table and chairs, I'd try benjesbride's mock-up idea with some large boxes or storage tubs representing the perimeter cabinets.

MamaG, the wife and I talked about your plan where we made an L shape with the cabinets and countertop, but we felt that would close the living room off, especially since it is sunken in by 1'.

I'm not sure about switching the stove and the main sink. I wanted the range and hood to be centered on the wall, flanked by the SS floating shelves, creating a focal point on the wall. I don't think I will get that by swapping the sink and stove. Also, the further away I move the hood from the window, the less likely I will be able to vent it to the outside.

I think my plan for now is to put a undermount prep sink in the island, in the corner close to the fridge, 3.5" away from each edge. Thinking about something 12"x15" inner dimensions. Is it better to have the nicer faucet on the island prep sink, or kind of tucked away on the cleanup wall sink?

You don't have enough space between your entry wall and your island edge. You need a minimum of 3'.

You also do not have enough room between your perimeter counter and your island counter if you are a 2 cook family. You need to measure handle of the range to the edge of the counter. Not cabinet to cabinet.

And my guess is unless you're doing an integrated fridge, the space between the edge of the island and the fridge is way too narrow creating a pinch point.

Additionally a prep sink 3 1/2" away from the edge of the counter will not be very conducive to prepping. Why? Because as you take things out of the fridge where will you put them until after you clean them? You need space on both sides of the sink for prepping.

I understand you not wanting to do an L shaped plan but again I offer up my plan again.

My thinking with my plan also is when you walk in the front door, the first thing you see is NOT the kitchen but the dining room which to me is a lot more pleasant.

cpartist - I could trim about 9" off the entryway wall, and that would give me the 3' clearance between the edge of the counter and the wall. I know I can't get the 48" clearance between the perimeter cabinets and the island counter, but I'd rather keep the size of the island. I'm hoping 40" won't be too tight.

You have to measure from the handle of the stove to the edge of the counter. Not the edge of the cabinets. What is that measurement.

And again the prep sink to be useful needs to have room on both sides. :)

Another thought with how you have the clean up sink is that the person cleaning up is facing a wall. Frankly, while I'm prepping I'm watching what I'm doing so I don't slice a finger, but when I'm cleaning up, I prefer to be able to look out or have something to look at. (Just a thought)

Also I understand your thoughts on making the cooktop and hood a feature, but you really won't have a large space from when you walk in that it is that important?