Cynthia, I agree that your first plant looks like a Noisette, but am not sure which one; probably as it matures, you'll be able to decide.

As for your other plant, I got nuthin'. Except... if these are the first blooms from the plant, is it possible that later blooms might look a bit more like your 'Eliz. Lawrence'?

Good luck,

Virginia

I think Narrow Water might be a good ID for the first one, Cynthia. First, the mauve tints, the petal shapes/numbers, and then the fragrance (fairly strong for me). Narrow Water is fairly well-armed -- I can see at least some prickles in your photo. Here are some photos of my Narrow Water (two years in ground), taken just now:

Cluster of blooms:

More blooms:

Very close blooms:

Prickles:

P.S. Leaves don't look far off, either, FWIW.

I was thinking maybe it's flower girl but from the pics above she could b right ab narrow water. I'll post pics of flower girl tom. Although I noticed she was pink for a while now she's getting more of a peachy tone now that the weathers heating up here

I also have two mystery roses from RVR I'd like to have identified. I ordered three Marianne from them by way of a friend who took the trouble to import them to Sweden. One Marianne is correct, the others are two different pink roses.

Wow beautiful roses!!!!!

Marianne, the wrong roses I have received from RVR have generally followed the proximity or alphabet principle, with a name or such close to the variety actually ordered, e.g., 'Mme. Pierre Ogier' instead of 'Mme. Caroline Testout', though I'm not sure how RVR groups their roses overall. Looking at their list of Paul Barden roses, RVR 'Gallicandy' might bear some resemblance? Or, going strictly by alphabet, RVR 'Mary Rose', the nearest lighter pink?

As it turns out, I also got 'Kew Rambler' from RVR this year. My band was also rather large -- about the size of the one you think may be KR. There are two things I find distinctive about it. First is that the cane and the leaves have a grayish cast. Second is the prickles -- they are short and fat with oval bases, stick straight out, and appear in clusters. This pic on HelpMeFind illustrates them well. Looking at your pic, the prickles don't seem to be a match, but that could be an effect of variation from cane to cane, or just the way the pic came out. Mine has some buds on it, and when they open I'll take some pics. I'd take some of the plant now but it's been raining on and off for the past few days, and I'm staying inside for now.

There are some other ramblers carried by RVR with similar blooms. Something else you should check would be fragrance -- 'Kew Rambler' is supposed to be fragrant, but some of the similar-looking others are not.

:-)

~Christopher

Thanks for the guesses folks! Catspa I'd be thrilled if my plant looks half as lovely as your pictures of Narrow Water, so I'll hang onto that as a working guess and put it in a protected spot like I do with other Noisettes. Usually I find they'll only bloom on surviving cane, but this one definitely looks like it's worth the babying in my zone. Let me know Virginia & Rachel if something else looks like a closer match.

Ah Christopher, it's reassuring that Kew Rambler was indeed one of the mystery roses this year, so that's a chance, but you're right that I don't see any of that odd clustered thorns on this one. I'll keep an eye on my Elizabeth Lawrence that I have named and blooming from Rogue Valley and see if they start to look more similar. There didn't seem to be too many roses with few dark pink petals and that white eye and big yellow stamens in stock to choose from.

Marianne, I think the guess of another gallica of Barden's like Gallicandy might be a good guess, presuming that they keep gallicas and other OGRs separate from other roses. If it's entirely alphabetical storage, I suppose it could be Mary Rose but mine is a lighter pink than either of the ones you show most of the year in our heat, so the color doesn't match what I usually see for that one. Since you ordered that one by name from RV you should be able to drop them the photo by email for identification and a correct rose sent. I also ordered Marianne this year and mine arrived almost beige with a hint of apricot at the center with fading blooms (smelled great). Definitely not a fit for Marianne with those pink blooms.

Hope others can help Marianne (the Sweden one) out here with more guesses! Thanks

Cynthia

Oh, I should clarify -- I actually ordered 'Kew Rambler', and presume it is correct.

And on that note, I also ordered 'Mme Platz', but I'm wondering if I got something else. What I got has no moss on its newly-forming buds, and the stems are rather smooth. I think it's still an OGR, so it'll probably go to the cemetery -- once I figure out what it is. Thus far, that's the only potentially wrong rose I got from RVR this year, out of about two dozen.

:-)

~Christopher

Thanks for the clarification, Christopher. That definitely means that your Kew Rambler is a good plant against which to judge the second of these mysteries. Are you planting the rambler in your cemetery as well? I seem to recall you were looking for relatively low care OGRs to weave in and out of various locations in the cemetery, and a rambler would be perfect for sneaking around the headstones.

I also have Mme. Platz coming from RV as a free rose, so as soon as it gets some blooms I can check out a comparison for you. I didn't know that rose had the mossy buds, but it's definitely a plus. I agree that RV is usually accurate in what they send and good about emailing ahead of time if a rose has failed and can't be shipped.

Cynthia

Yes, I have it earmarked for the cemetery -- as a tree-climber. I got a few others for the same purpose.

Yes, 'Mme Platz' is a repeat-blooming Moss, so I expected both mossy buds and something very prickly. What I got doesn't seem to have either feature, but looks like some other type of OGR. When the buds open, I'll be better able to guess. As of now, I'm guessing Hybrid Perpetual.

:-)

~Christopher

Lovely photo, Marianne! That's the look we all want to see from the true Marianne rose! Hopefully RVR will come through with credit or a replacement. I'm surprised you're able to order from them in Europe. It's good you were able to get the true Marianne from your friend, so do tell others how fantastic the Barden roses are! Gallicandy is a lovely rose as well though, and I hope you enjoy it.

Cynthia

Well, as a little update, I think I figured out what my NOT 'Mme Platz' actually is. The blooms opened white, and looked a lot like those on the baby 'Mme Hardy' I got for the cemetery. But the rest of the plant was totally different. I checked alphabetically, and I'm almost certain that what I got is 'Mme Plantier'. And that's a good thing, because I was considering it for the cemetery, anyway, but didn't order it. So one less for me, one more for them. I'm not contacting RVR about a replacement, since the error is something I'd have wanted, anyway.

On a related note, the second error from RVR arrived with the tag 'Duchesse de Rohan', but the plant looked a bit odd, being rather stiffly upright and showing China-influenced-but-still-OGR foliage. Then it sent forth flower buds, which began a deep dark purple-tinged red, opening "old rose red". Looking through the alphabetical list again, I think it's 'Duchesse d'Ossuna', which was another I was eyeing but didn't actually order. So, again, since the error turned out in my favor, I'm keeping it, and will re-order the other eventually without mentioning the mix-up.

:-)

~Christopher

It's not Champneys, if that helps. The mystery roses, if I understand correclty, are ones that RV has lost tags and can't indentify. So it could be anything. I received About Face last year and this year I think I have Gilbert Nabonnand.

My experience with RVR to a "T", Christopher -- :-). Most arrive without mishap, but the ones that are off are usually just a letter or two away.

This rather confirms the guess that one of my misnomed Mariannes is Mary Rose. Have to go through the RVR list again hoping to find the other one.

Thanks for the info Buford - I have Champney's Pink cluster and it really didn't look right for that, so it's nice to hear you agree.

Christopher and Marianne - you've both been very patient with the mixups in RV orders, and I'm glad the mistakes are still something you can use. The info that they're usually a letter off catspa is sensible knowing human nature and a forgivable error in the busy season. You're right Buford that the same help doesn't apply to the mystery roses - that's why they're a mystery!

Cynthia

Mariannese; it's definitely NOT gallicandy. Mary Rose is probably a good bet.