I think you're very smart for adding on a mudroom even though I know it's challenging. Why isn't this more of a priority with homes? Most of them are way too small for today's needs (like storing bulk items from Costco) and many people are forced to use their garages instead. A well designed mudroom is key to keeping your whole house clean!

I would try to arrange the entries so that the island is not a barrier between them:

There wasn't enough space for any storage aside from the trash. So it's basically just seating/prep space and hidden trash.

Changing the layout like that would require more structural work but there's a window there currently so I don't think it would be too bad.

You could also have a nice closet and bigger pantry, with less wasted floor space in the mudroom.

I like the idea of a work table in the kitchen. :) Since you won't have cabinets, you might consider making the island less than 34" deep, and add those extra inches to the aisles.

I forgot to mention that the plan I posted above eliminates one of the blind corners. The speed oven could go beside the walk-in pantry, under the counter, or above, if you're willing to block the existing window. (ETA the aisle might need to be wider in that case--the reach-in pantry could be narrower, and the fridge moved down.)

Where are you planning to store dishes?

I'm torn between leaving the fridge as is because it's convenient to the prep and cooking areas, or switching it with the reach-in pantry to lessen the chance of anyone walking through your work aisles to access it. Switching them would also make the island a barrier between the fridge and sink. Where do the existing doorways on the left and bottom of the plan go?

Can the coffee center go above the drawer fridge?

I like your idea of a mud room too and I have thought about something similar to my house. I also had a similar experience with design build. Is there a sink in the mud room? I think in your first design, the pantry might be hard to get to from the kitchen.

Dishes and glasses will go in upper cabs over the dishwashers. I'll have a third upper cab and the upper cabs over the sink other stuff can go in.

The bottom door goes to a back hallway which goes to basement and upstairs (via a smallish secondary stairway, we have a main stairway off the main entry) then opens to a nook with a small closet (which isn't too useful since its <24" deep) then the main entryway. The left door opens to what is probably intended as a formal dining room (currently its a playroom but will likely go back to a dining room soon) which connects to the main entryway. We typically eat in the living room which is pretty huge and has room for a dining table and sectional couch + 2 chairs but we are reevaluating how we use the rest of the main floor after the addition is done.

The idea initially was to have a reasonably sized 24" deep reach-in pantry with 14" shelves inside and 9" door storage where I keep the stuff I'm using, then a larger one for the overflow and longer term storage.

I'm liking the idea of relocating the entryway especially with it enlarging the walk-in pantry and allowing for a coat closet. It drops the reach-in pantry size from about 60" to about 48" which is okay I think. I can still fit three kid lockers on the wall as well.

I'm not sure about opening the kitchen to the walk-in pantry since it involves losing a decent chunk of wall and/or counter space as well as having to demo a good chunk of an existing brick exterior wall. If I don't do that I'd probably swap the SO/Coffee stack with the fridge to get it a little more out of the way. The fridge and coffee will share a water line, so best to keep them adjacent if possible. I could move it over the drawer fridge but I'd probably have to use the non plumbed version and I'd lose 24" of counter/"desk" space.

Yes, there is a sink n line with the stacked washer/dryer, storage cabinet, then a sink.

**ETA, see next post.**

Sorry, I didn't think about plumbing for coffee maker, so I would incorporate the coffee center/speed oven into fridge wall, as you had planned. The door on the left leading to the dining room is another good argument for switching the pantry and fridge, but there's the problem of the barrier island. If the drawer fridge will be used mostly for drinks and refrigerated snacks, it might not be an issue anyway.

If you put
the oven and coffee station next to the WI pantry door, then the fridge,
then a 36" pantry, would that work? You'd have plenty of pantry storage just
inside the slider, and the counter on the right could be used as landing space for the oven.

You wouldn't be losing that much storage to the WI pantry door from
the kitchen--the blind corner can now be used, when before it was wasted
space, and the larger WI pantry has more shelves. There is also that small storage space on
the left side of the plan (unless you are adding it into the
lockers/mudroom).

So, the big obstacle is a brick wall between the kitchen and pantry.

Is there a space closer to the bedrooms, where you could put the laundry?

I dreamed about your kitchen last night. Just kidding ;), but after 'hitting the brick wall' I tried using the closet and larger pantry with opening to kitchen ideas, with the existing door and window locations.

You still have two blind corners (with filler to make sure all cabinets/drawers open past each other.) It looks as if there will be space for 24" drawers to the right of the range, and 27" drawers to the left. Are you planning upper cabinets on the range wall? I drew the uppers on the sink wall to die into the range wall, since there is a window on the other side.

I moved the sink and DWs over--with filler you won't have room for the 6" slot--and added a return panel for the DW, since it's at the end of the run.

There's room for an upper in the corner by the drawer dishwasher. The window chews up the fridge side too much for upper cabs, but we were going to have some open shelves for displayable stuff (glassware cookbooks etc).

I can't move the pantry over there, the empty space next to reach in pantry is part of a support beam. Seems like I can steal a few inches off it on the fridge side but can't get rid of it entirely so it's at least about 12" of more or less wasted space.

I do have some laundry space upstairs but it's only enough for a 24" and it's unvented. Amazing how with 4k square feet just 3" more in a couple spots would make such a difference, but the house was built when people still used gas lights so can't complain too much. I have a LG all in one there now and it's decent. The only place I could put a full size would be the new master closet but I don't want all our laundry for the whole family routed through my bedroom.

I don't see where you really have room for an island with stools. If you want just a narrow island you have room for one, but honestly you'd be better off without one in your configuration. It will just act as a barrier, whereas a U-shaped kitchen will work well.

You have 164" of width based on your measurements. (24" cabinet + 26" cabinet + 6" on side of range + 48" range + 6" on side of range + 30" cabinet + 24" cabinet = 164")

Here's why I say you don't have enough space for an island:

164" - 51" (25.5" for each perimeter because you have to account for countertop overhang and ideally you should measure from the object that sticks out the furthest which would be your fridge handle, but assuming you only measure the actual countertops) = 113" width between your two countertops.

113" - 84" for two 42" aisles on either side of an island (which means you expect only one cook in the kitchen at a time. If you want two cooks working at the same time, you ideally need 48" wide aisles) = 29"

So you're looking at a 29" wide island. Assuming 24" deep cabinets, that leaves you 5" total overhang for both sides, which is certainly not enough for stools to be pushed under.

Put in a rolling cart instead and that also solves the problem Mama is trying to fix of walking from one room to another.

Also from your original plan, I would move the door to the pantry to the short wall so you can have pantry storage on each long wall. Corners are useless.

Here's my thoughts on the island, bring me back to reality if I'm not being realistic. I really want to be able to seat 5 in the kitchen if at all possible, however I'm expecting it will usually be just 2-3 kids eating or doing homework while 1 adult cooks. Losing the island would screw up my kitchen concept in a bad way.

My drawing is very slightly off due to the graph paper and hand drawn nature, I actually have 166" of width. Not a huge difference but every inch counts here (again another spot where a few extra inches would make a huge difference).

The appliances and fridge are all flush integrated and there's no countertop bodering the island on that side. Apparently the flush fridge is actually just under 25" deep, not really 24". The sink side will have standard countertop overhang.

166-25-25.5-84 = 31.5 (so let's call it 30-32" which is probably what I should trim the island down to from 34"). I'm really just counting the countertop space here because that's what I care about since it's mostly just a table.

This is mostly a one cook (at a time) kitchen unless the kids are "helping" cook.

There will be no cabinets underneath the island except for the pull-out trash (at 15" deep) on the side of the range, the rest will be an open table with just support legs at the corners. This gives me 15" of leg clearance on each side (with two inches to spare if I use 32"). 78" length gives me 15 (trash) + 48 (seating for two) + 15 (seating for one on the end). So it seems like everyone should fit, a little tight perhaps, but I think the 15" cushion on each end helps spread it out a little. If I use bench type stools with no back, they should fit fine underneath the "table" part of the island when someone isn't sitting on them. Also one of the stools will be shared with the counterheight desk area, so I'll have 5 stools with 6 spots they can go in.

So the numbers are tight, but they seem to work far as I can tell.

Can you post the plan with the structural beam highlighted, and the brick wall's existing openings (if I don't have those correct)?

I agree with cpartist's reasoning, and in a new build I wouldn't recommend aisles less than 42-48". But in an older home, mine included, sometimes we need to squeeze a little here, a little there. I have a 13.5' x 13.5' kitchen with a 36" x 60" table/island (table converted to an island, one DIY cabinet added, with a bench on one side, and two mounted swing out seats--which is one reason I find your plan interesting). Aisles are 36" on the bench side, and 40-42" on two sides with the fourth side open to the DR. It works well for us, seats 5, if one is a small child, or 4 adults for quick meals. I can walk behind the bench sitters, but it's easier in my kitchen because the cabinets behind the bench are bases and shallow uppers (vintage uppers are only 10" deep), so there is plenty of shoulder room on that side of my kitchen, where your wall has the vertical plane of pantry and fridge.

We recessed the standard-depth fridge into a former doorway on the other side of the room, so it works, too. Your kitchen will be a bit crowded when everyone sits down, but I think it's workable at 166".

I'd changed the table to 30" wide from 34" on the plan--we have 30" folding tables that we use for extended gatherings, and they work, but only if the serving pieces are no larger than S&P shakers and a butter dish. There isn't enough room for the big bowls and platters, so we serve buffet style. If you plate at the range the narrow table should work fine.

I love my table/island, and have the kitchen set up to work around it. Some folks wouldn't enjoy working in a kitchen with narrow aisles--some have stated that even narrower aisles are comfortable. It depends on your cooking style and priorities, and ability to adapt.

Ok 166" of width which is only 2" more than I figured. It's not enough. Let's go over the numbers that way then.

First how can you not have a countertop on the island? Also your fridge may only be 25" but the handles will stick out further!

Plus you say it's a one cook kitchen unless the kids are "helping". They are young now, but I assume you want them to learn to cook so will be helping more as they get older? Also what about them helping load/unload the DW, or set the table? No room for that in your configuration.

So let's refigure.

166" - 51" (your perimeter counters) = 115"

115" - 84" (which is really NOT wide enough if you're having seating on one side. I'm assuming you're having the seating on the side with the DW? Now imagine someone sitting there with the DW open.) = 31" wide island.

So the way I understand it, you now have a 31" island x 78" length. Except you're putting a trash cabinet on the end which means you lose 24" of that 78" length. A trash cabinet may be 15" WIDE but it will need to be 24" deep which is a standard cabinet size.

So your usable island is 31" w x 54". The recommended spacing for an adult to sit is 24" of space. 54" divided by 24" = 2 seats. Ok so it's young children so let's say they only need 18" of space for now. Of course what happens when they become teens before you blink? 54" divided by 18 = 3 seats.

Now imagine having to maneuver around the kids sitting at the island. They don't sit with the chairs pushed in all the way. They need a minimum of 12" which now brings your aisles down to 30" each.

And we forgot to include the legs at the end of the table too.

Now I will say anything is doable but does it make it comfortable? Workable? No.

I think you have room to squeeze in the seats - the biggest problem for me would be that the seats would ALWAYS be in the way. With seats it would be much nicer to have at least 48" as both sides will be pretty heavily used passageways. Maybe you and your kids are better at keeping unused stools under the table but mine are always in the middle of everything!

Are you amenable to changing around the whole layout? Maybe making the kitchen longer and narrower? I am in the process of moving for the next several days but if you're willing to wait, I have some ideas. I would need the blank space with all doors, windows, support beams, etc mapped out EXACTLY.

Also how the room relates to the rest of the downstairs as that might make a difference too.

As drawn the mudroom is all new construction and the kitchen is using the existing box of the room. I'm sure we COULD blow out the whole exterior brick wall so instead of two boxes we just have one big box to fill in. This would give a lot more flexbility with the space, but it would involve a lot more structural work compared to the relatively simple addition we have now (which is already pushing the limits of what I can reasonably justify/afford spending on this).

As for the island, my plan was to reverse the typical base trash pull-out orientation so that it is roughly 22-24" wide x 15" deep.

When I was describing the size of the island, I was describing the countertop size (eating/sitting space), so the overhang was already included in that. Maybe I described that poorly. The space for the island legs is included in the 15" cushion on each end that the garbage and 5th seat provides.

I get that its tight, I said as much in my initial post and its a concern. Trying to decide if its tight but okay or just bad. I don't envision the 5 of us dining here regularly (there is plenty of space elsewhere for sit down meals) so I think 3 pretty usable seating spots (2 on fridge wall + end of table) + 2 spots that could be used in a pinch (dishwasher side) would work well. The main work area that is the U which includes range, SO, fridge, and sink is all removed from the seating area, the only thing that is really problematic is the pantry and 1 of the dishwashers.

Jason B., I don't want to talk you into anything, and if I thought your plan was too 'out there', or you had unrealistic expectations, I wouldn't hesitate to suggest a different direction for your kitchen. If, after cpartist and/or others post other plans, you still want the table/island, here's a link that has a few pics of mine, both before and after I added the swing-out seats:
Converted table with bench and industrial seats.

BTW, I added an inexpensive 12" trash pull-out to a site-built cabinet in my kitchen, and I find it sufficient. We have a larger, covered metal can in the mudroom, and shelves for recycling there, and we compost, so YMMV.

I get that its tight, I said as much in my initial post and its a concern. Trying to decide if its tight but okay or just bad.j

Get some boxes the same height and do a mockup as to how it would actually be.

OK, I think I figured out where the beam is:

Or, on the side of the fridge, if the WI pantry door is off by a few inches.

yeah that's where the beam is. I'm going to run the plans by the contractor and do some mockups in the existing kitchen with painters tape and such regarding the island.

appreciate the input and thought from everyone that has gone into this.

I'll add a couple more quick rearrangements of the pantry door, including omitting it and going back to the door from the mudroom, with traffic still routed through the spot with existing window. Click to enlarge:

do actual boxes not painters tape. with painters tape you don't get the true feel because to your minds eye it is still open

Thanks for the advice on boxes.

I'm going to speak with the contractor. I assumed removing the brick wall was prohibitively expensive, but after reading about it, seems it might not be as bad as I thought.

I only skimmed the thread so perhaps someone else mentioned it, but I don't like that you don't have any landing space on either side of the range, due to the chimney bump out. I would definitely rectify that. NKBA guidelines state: "Include a minimum of 12 inches of landing area on one side of a cooking surface and 15 inches on the other side."

Source: https://www.nkba.org/Guidelines/Kitchen/CookSurfaceLandingArea.aspx

the range sticks out a little (12-15") due to the existing exposed chimney, but there is a 6" sliver of 12" deep countertops on either side continuous with 24" deep countertops immediately adjacent. Considering this isn't new construction and I'm trying to keep some character, that seems fine as a landing spot to me? no?

So the cost of removing the wall would be about 5k, not cheap but not prohibitive. The wall is really thick, so losing the wall gains me an extra foot of interior length (for simplicity I hadn't draw that into the prior sketches).

Here was my basic idea stealing concepts from some of the great ideas above. It bumps the cabinets back enough to make the island 36" and give 48" of clearance all around and opens up a back path to what I see as sort of a "butler's pantry" concept, still keeping a closed off walk-in pantry with a pocket door to allow access. I have enough room to unstack the washer/dryer and can put them on pedestals which ideally I prefer to the floor standing or stacked configuration. I also get more light into the kitchen (I can put a window somewhere along the W/D wall, exact size and placement TBD but figured something near the sink). and should have a decent line of sight into the backyard.

The wall I had the fridge and SO/coffee on (backing to w/i pantry) becomes smaller and can now fit 87.5" of stuff (lost 4.5" extra space due to recess of pocket door)). So gives me room for a 27" pantry type cabinet and the fridge/speed oven or I could maybe drop the drawer fridge and instead do a 30" fridge column + 24" freezer column, trim SO/coffee out to 30" (there's a kit for that) and have 3.5" of wiggle room. The bigger fridge/freezer combo would actually be cheaper than the french door + drawer fridge combo. The bigger door clearance is a mild concern, but if I stick the fridge on the end near range (which makes the most sense anyway) the door shouldn't really get in the way of island.

Plan to keep sink and at least 1 dishwasher where it was, perhaps relocate the 2nd dishwasher next to the second sink?

Thanks in advance for the input!

I question the two sinks and two DWs. Having both is great is you do lots of large scale entertaining using caterers, or if one keeps a Kosher kitchen. The house my son bought had a huge kitchen with a 2nd DW, small cooktop and warming drawer. Previous owner did lots of entertaining with caterers. In the 7 yrs they lived in this house, they only used these one time - when they had a big party with caterers. I'd think long and hard before investing money and space in these.

Definitely want two dishwashers. I am sure I will use them both regularly but I'd be okay with a half drawer and regular washer if space is tight.

The second sink serves the purpose of a laundry sink and isn't an absolute "must" but will be used and a deep Stainless bowl and faucet isn't a big expense so it's mainly a space issue but I don't think I'm so tight I can't spare the space.

Your plan looks really good! I like the pantry and closet back-to-back, the traffic patterns, and the elimination of a blind corner. I would keep the DWs on each side of the main sink, and close to the prep area.

My 30" fridge overlaps the island, in a narrower aisle, and it works fine--as with yours, there is step-back space beyond the island. I also have an 'auxiliary' sink, just outside the kitchen, and I find it very useful--for thawing and rinsing meat, for draining and drip-drying large cooking pans and baking sheets, and it can also double as an ice chest for parties. Coupled with the laundry function, I think you'll be happy to have the second sink.

I think you're going to have an amazing kitchen!

I would like to be able to close off the laundry from the kitchen near the pantry area. I would remove the pocket door from the pantry and leave it open. Then put in a pocket door that slides into the wall behind the fridge. You could leave the door open most of the time and close it when the noisy washer and dryer are running.

Thanks again to everyone who commented, spent the last six weeks or so reworking our plans and would appreciate additional input on the new post I started

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3968886/m=23/layout-help-removing-ext-wall-reclaiming-a-closed-off-window