Don't have any experience with euros but my advice would be to just do what you're doing by leaving the lid off and a light on. I'd bet than within a day or so they will settle in to their new home and things will be fine. Sounds like you've prepared some pretty nice "digs" for them. ; )

Harry

<The only thing that keeps them down is leaving the lid off with a light over head. Is this normal for a new bin?> Worms hate light.

<Am I doing something wrong?> That is what your worms are trying to tell you - they are NOT happy and are leaving.

<Also its not too wet or dry.> According to who? Those who live there or you?

Also IF its not too wet or dry - then why are the worms leaving?

Me thinks the most common mistake when setting up a new worm bin is to make it too wet for the worms and say "It's not too wet". Leaving the lid on keeps the moisture in. Taking the lid off and allows light in to keep the worms below the surface. Leaving the lid off for days allows the bin to dry out to a point where the worms can tolerate it and the newbie rationalizes the worms just needed time to settle in.

I said this before and will say it one more time right here - IF you have leachate leaking out of the drain holes you put in the worm bin and worms wandering around then the bin IS tooo wet.

Let's think about this - you put drain holes in the bottom to allow excess moisture to escape, right? So when/IF there is anything coming out of the drain holes is that not excess?

Said another way - when the bedding material is so saturated it can't possibly absorb any more water that it is just passed thru to the drain pan what does that mean? To me it means the bedding material is indeed too wet.

When worms are climbing the walls it means they are not happy about something - it is your job to find out what that is.

HTH

Gumby, I don't see that nappymop said anything about leachate draining out of the bin. Don't you think this could just be a case of giving the worms some time to accept their new environment? Nmop did say it was a new bin set up. Haven't you ever had worms roam around when you put them into a fresh bin 'cause I have, and without changing a thing they settled in after a day or so. If someone yanked me out of my existing home and suddenly plopped me into a new one I'd probably want to have a good look around too.....maybe that's all they're doing?

Let's hope Nmop posts again to let us know what has happened.

Harry

I said it-- read this again.

I said this before and will say it one more time right here - IF you
have leachate leaking out of the drain holes you put in the worm bin and
worms wandering around then the bin IS tooo wet.

Harry on the other side you need to ask how you would feel IF your new home was to wet for you to breath? Worms breath thru their skin and too much moisture will displace the O2.

I also mentioned it is a very common mistake (I think we all make with our first bin), I know I did.

I should have asked just what info was used to make the determination <Also its not too wet or dry.> How was that determined?

And also point out that another sign the bin is too wet is moisture condensing on the bin walls when. The leachate is a sign the bedding material is saturated.

For starting any new bin it is suggested to leave the lid off with a strong light overhead for the first 24-48 hrs. As for the mix in the bin everyone does it differently for sure. I like to have about 3" of bedding in the bottom of my 10 gal roughneck. It is made up of mostly moist peat and and a little coco coir and with this I mix some shredded paper from a machine. Then when I feed in one corner I cover this with a layer of manually shredded paper made of newsprint which I long shredd by hand and if I need to move this paper around it is easier to do when shredded in this manner.

Gumby, I agree with you regarding leachate draining from the bin. If that is the case then yes, that could be a problem.

My point was that nappymop only stated that the worms in his new bin were trying to escape. He didn't say he had any leachate draining from his bin. His bin may in fact be too dry or too hot.

Harry

No he didn't in fact he did say <Also its not too wet or dry.>

What he didn't say was just how he determined that.

But he did say that worms were leaving or trying to leave the bin.

So just how many questions should I ask before I share with him what I feel is a mistake most beginners make when making a worm bin?

Please tell me the guidelines. Also explain the reasons why worms normally leave any bin.

I think the below explained my thoughts pretty clearly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Also IF its not too wet or dry - then why are the worms leaving?

Me thinks the most common mistake when setting up a new worm bin is
to make it too wet for the worms and say "It's not too wet". Leaving the
lid on keeps the moisture in. Taking the lid off and allows light in to
keep the worms below the surface. Leaving the lid off for days allows
the bin to dry out to a point where the worms can tolerate it and the
newbie rationalizes the worms just needed time to settle in.

Although gumby is correct in that you might not be a good judge of proper moisture levels in the bin as a novice worm owner, he's being way too urgent and serious about this at this early stage.

Are the worms actually leaving the bin, or are they just crawling around the lid and sides a lot? Give it another day or so, and If they are actually exiting the bin at that time, and you're finding a lot of them on the floor outside the bin (not just 1 or 2), you likely have an environmental issue in the bin. If they're just all crawling around a lot right now inside on the walls and lid, that's pretty normal for worms that have been moved into a new environment or experienced a major disturbance of some kind.

Note that there are always some worms crawling around the sides and lid of the bin any time there is enough condensation on those surfaces to make them comfortable to explore. Huge numbers of your worms frantically trying to leave and getting balled up in panicked masses under and around the lid is very different from having a couple dozen chilling out in relatively evenly distributed fashion on the inside bin walls and lid. There's a lot of misleading advice on the Internet that leads people to believe that there is something wrong if worms are not completely hidden. Composting worms are not deep soil dwellers like earth worms, and they can be kind of exploratory by nature.

Condensation is an interaction between air humidity and temperature and it has little use as a diagnostic for how much moisture is in the bedding. But if you have moisture draining out of your bin, especially at this early stage, it's probably too wet, and you should address that.

Personally, I have a theory that a lot of worms straight from the farm just don't like paper bedding at first. Probably feels too airy and insecure and unlike what they've been used to. Put a generous layer of well-crumbled, moist but not wet peat/coir/compost (something that has a soil-like texture) at the bottom of the bin, then put the paper, etc. on top of that. That will give them something to burrow into at the bottom that feels more familiar to them until they get used to paper bedding.

I have to say waiting until you see worms on the floor or even
outside the bin is not acceptable in my house. Certainly the nice part
about all of this worm bin discussion is you are free to do as you like
when you like.

I would also like to address this <Condensation is an interaction between air humidity and temperature and it has little use as a diagnostic for how much moisture is in the bedding.> Apparently this also works a little differently in my house.

IMO
condensation on the walls is a more accurate indication the bedding is
too wet. The reason is simple - the leachate (a coarse indicator) may
have stopped draining but IF the bedding is still so saturated that it also
saturates the air then it is still too wet, JMMO (Just My Meaningless
Opinion) but I am willing to bet your worms will still not be happy when this
happens.

Speaking of Happy Worms - No One has yet addressed why
worms would leave a bin (or even try) if it is not wet bedding - what
other reasons could there be? Try to keep it real.

gumby_ct: "I have to say waiting until you see worms on the floor or even outside the bin is not acceptable in my house."

If the problem is that the worms are trying to escape, how else would you know they are trying to escape if they are not outside the bin?

gumby_ct: "IMO condensation on the walls is a more accurate indication the bedding is too wet. The reason is simple - the leachate (a coarse indicator) may have stopped but IF the bedding is still so saturated that it also saturates the air then it is still too wet, JMMO (Just My Meaningless Opinion) but I am willing to bet your will still not be happy when this happens."

I'm perfectly happy for you to hold any opinion that you like. I would rather that people be warned that your completely unscientific opinion is hardly the final word, though. Everyone else should maybe Google "dewpoint" and think about things like how many temperature fluctuations their worm bin is undergoing, either due to environmental temperature, feedings, or normal decomposition activity.

gumby_ct: "No One has yet addressed why worms would leave a bin (or even try) if it is not wet bedding - what other reasons could there be? Try to keep it real."

I've already addressed this. Why wouldn't brand new worms object to how different their new environment is from their previous one and try to move somewhere more to their liking? Things like kind and texture of bedding can surely matter just as much as moisture levels.

Here are some more possibilities:

1) Lack of the natural flora in a long-term worm enclosure or bin probably also has an effect.

2) Adjusting to sudden lack of space to roam if they come from a large worm farm bin.

3) I imagine that, for those mail-ordering worms, being sent through the post can leave them disgruntled and signal to them that Very Catastrophic Things are happening and they better go find a safe place like the one they're used to pronto.

4) The new bin may be a totally different temperature than what they were accustomed to for their lives up to that point, or a temperature that they just don't like. I know that my worms dislike it when temps fall under 68 or so and will get restless. Just because they can survive perfectly well at 64 degrees doesn't mean they enjoy it. As soon as I warm things up a few degrees, they go back to being placid.

A lot of things can disgruntle an organism used to living in a stratum that offers unlimited space to move away if conditions do change rapidly. Why wouldn't being shipped and plunked into a totally new bin in a totally new geographic location be something that would make them unhappy? Is "too wet" really the only thing you could possibly imagine to be a problem?

The fact is, wandering worms for the first few days of a brand new bin or major upheaval like harvesting is completely normal for almost everyone. I would probably worry more if someone's worms did not get restless for the first couple days.

gorbelly(6b/7a | Sunset 32 | SE PA) <If the problem is that the worms are trying to escape, how else would
you know they are trying to escape if they are not outside the bin?> Well in my bin the worms don't climb the walls so me thinks climbing the walls might be a clue the worms are not happy.

I think the OP said <If I cover the bin for anything longer than 15 minutes 25 to 50 worms will race to the lid and start to escape.> Is that a clue?

I my world dewpoint is a measure of temperature and condensation is the conversion of water from a gas to a liquid. But that prob means nothing to your scientific mind. I sure hope the room temperature is/was fairly constant.

Could it have been low atmospheric pressure cause the worms to get restless?

Yes certainly there are other reasons that unhappy worms try to leave let me read what I think is just one of the most common reasons to you -

gumby_ct: I think the below explained my thoughts pretty clearly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Also IF its not too wet or dry - then why are the worms leaving?

Me thinks the most common mistake when setting up a new worm bin is
to make it too wet for the worms and say "It's not too wet". Leaving the
lid on keeps the moisture in. Taking the lid off and allows light in to
keep the worms below the surface. Leaving the lid off for days allows
the bin to dry out to a point where the worms can tolerate it and the
newbie rationalizes the worms just needed time to settle in.

Okay okay, Gumby your obviously a enlightened worm farmer with a knack for being a condescending d-bag. I realize I am new to worm farming but not a complete idiot nor is any one else posting on this thread, so back off just a touch would you. In my humble opinion the moisture level of the bedding is fine, NO LEACHATE, NO CONDESATION, BAROMETRIC PRESSURE, PLANET ALIGNMENT, AND JET STREAM all look good as well.

As of today if I turn the light off and cover the bin roughly a dozen worms may start climbing about, a few may make it onto the floor. It's been roughly 5 days since they first went in so I added some banana peel to see if maybe there lacking food. I figured they would get by for a week or so on the peat/coconut husk. So I am hoping that I can leave the bin covered with the light off shortly.

By the way thank you Harry, Gorbelly and hummersteve. Gumby, your still an asshat.

nappymop: "I figured they would get by for a week or so on the peat/coconut husk."

Doubtful that the peat/coconut coir has been breaking down enough to provide a nutritious meal. A small amount of food is probably a good thing. This early in the game, I'd probably whiz it in a blender to make it more quickly accessible to the worms, adding more dry bedding to make up for the extra moisture. Once things get established, I'm personally not a huge fan of slurries. Too hard to control where it soaks in, too easy to end up with a bin that's too wet, etc. But for now, just to reassure them that there is food in their environment and get some microorganisms growing in the bin, it might be a good idea.

nappymop YOU, my friend, obviously don't know what condescending is even when you see it.

And you gave no clues to help anyone help YOU. But you've got your circle of friends now. I'll be reading & watching. I want you to think of me when you get your infestation of insects in the house and the wife tosses you out with them. Just smile when they get out of control.

btw - I know why the worms are leaving you now.

nappy... have you tried just leaving the lid off, without the light? In another thread I related my experience which somewhat mirrors your's and simply leaving the lid off was the answer. It prevents the humidity above the bedding from getting so high that some of the more adventurous worms feel comfortable to start roaming around above the bedding... and so they don't roam if the moisture level is too low... worms don't have lungs and so require moisture to breathe through their skin... without adequate moisture they suffocate. If I couldn't breathe outside the house, I'd end up staying inside the house regardless of my curiosity about what wonderful things there might be to eat just outside my front door.

I too was nervous the first time I left the lid and the light off all night (my wife was frantic), thinking that the light alone was keeping the worms below the bedding... however after the first night with the lid off and no light on and not a single worm trying to escape, it became apparent to me that its really just the humidity level that determines whether worms decide to roam/explore their surroundings. Makes sense to me that that is how they move from one place to another out in nature so there is no mass death march occurring when the food eventually runs out (going from one depleted manure pile attempting to find the next one, which could be quite a hike away). Its probably also why worms can be seen on overcast rainy days roaming out and about... they are not drowning, they are exploring at the only time they can get very far without suffocating (drying up). I find earth worms living in my water plants and at the bottom of my filters in our koi pond all the time, water doesn't kill them... it provides oxygen and prevents them from drying out... in and around the pond, if there is decomposing organic matter to eat they are there. (The only thing in the pond that they might wish to escape are the hungry fish.)

Now a mass exodus of worms from the bin I suspect would be a different issue but a few roamers/explorers in a humid environment I believe is normal worm behavior and not a cause for panic nor concern. My personal suggestion to you then is just leave both the lid and the light off and don't worry about it. Good luck there buddy.

Oh and Gorbelly's right in that your worms essentially won't have anything to eat until the food and bedding in your bin begin to break down due to microbial action.... that can take several weeks in a new (essentially sterile) bin. If you can find some partially composted leaf litter somewhere that might be a more immediately available food source for the worms plus it would add a large and diverse population of microbes (and other critters) to boost the bin activity... however it will still take months for all the creatures in the bin to achieve a harmonious balance within the bin... remember your bin is an ecosystem of which the worms are merely just a single component in the system. In my case it seemed to take about 3 months before a balance was achieved. Its why I started my two newest bins by adding in about 5 gallons of bedding/castings from my older worm bins... it seemed to smooth the transition period without all the weird things experienced by my first bins.

Calm down, gumby_ct. All nappymop wanted to know is whether it's normal for worms to be hyperactive in a new bin, including some escape attempts, to which the answer is "yes" for pretty much everyone but you. I'm not sure what kind of a dissertation you think would have been needed to describe a 2-day old worm bin.

Not that you needed a dissertation, anyway, since you immediately magically saw into nappymop's worm bin and used a magic spirit hand to feel the bedding and deemed with great authority that it is too wet. Must be convenient to be psychic. Tell me, why are so many psychic people on the Internet so ill-tempered?

What are you even getting out of being abusive and picking fights with a newbie, anyway? Does it make you feel important? It's always amazing to me how a relaxing, positive activity like gardening can attract so many irrationally angry and abusive people.

Good points, monomer. We should maybe stop to remember that they are called "nightcrawlers" for a reason. The Euros, by the way, actually like their environments wetter than the red wigglers. I've read they're specifically used for very wet composting systems when used large scale.

They also multiply more slowly than the red wigglers, though, so it's important to keep an eye on feeding. I'd maybe put in a lot of dried leaves and stuff in with the bedding as well, if possible, as they are supposed to need more "browns" than the red wigglers. (Note that adding leaf matter from outdoors can introduce critters into the bin.)

I have mostly red wigglers but also some Euros mixed in. And when I use vermicompost in my plants, I sometimes find GIANT, fat, happy Euros in the soil of my wicking planters months later as I'm repotting. And they're always in the sludgiest, wettest part. They get in there as tiny babies or eggs, I guess. They could easily move up a couple inches into dirt that is always nicely moist and crumbly and well aerated the way the red wigglers would like it, but no, they stay in the bottom where it's basically mud.

This doesn't mean I recommend keeping your bin sludgy, nappymop. But even if your bedding is "too wet" by red wiggler standards (sorry I'm not psychic and can't make a definitive diagnosis of the wetness of your bin), it won't necessarily be a dealbreaker for Euros.

nappymop, don't let gumby get you worried about your worm bin, I'm sure they will settle down soon but I would try leaving the lid off and a light on to coax them down into their new home. I don't think you mentioned whether or not you have any drain holes in your bin. If you do, and no leachate is draining out I'd be willing to bet that the bedding moisture is fine. If you don't have any drain holes you might just want to take a peak at the moisture levels at the bottom of your bin. Also make a mental note as to where the bulk of the worms are hangin' out. Are they where it is wetter or where things are a bit dryer? Are they anywhere near your original banana/carrot mixture?

Just be patient and a keen observer of how they are reacting to various changes in the conditions (bedding, food, temps. etc) of your bin and I'm sure you'll figure things out. Good luck, and let us (those with an open mind) hear of your findings.

Harry

Oh and nappymop..........."barometric pressure", "jetstream" and "planet alignment".........I love it! Clearly there is more to this worm farming than just moisture levels. ;-)

So I thought I had it under control. After a couple hours with the light off there was only maybe 5 worms crawling up the edges well I left it that way for roughly another two or three hours and when I came back there must have been about 50 worms climbing out on the table on the ground all over the outside of the bin..etc. So is it possible there are too many worms in that bin. It was a pound do I am guessing approx 600. Should I gather up the The Wanderers and put them in a separate bin? Are they overcrowded? Or should I just always leave a light on?

Are any of them eating the food you put down? And how much of the bedding is paper and how much is peat/coir? How many inches thick is the bedding?

They seem to be eating the banana peels and I am seeing some castings at the bottom falling through the holes. The bedding is probably 6-7 inches.

It's probably 90 percent paper the rest is peat/coir

If you have more peat/coir. I'd put a big old pile of it (moistened) at the bottom of the bin to one side. If you see them hanging out in that and not the paper, then you'll know that they mostly just want something to burrow into that feels more like home. Which the paper will eventually, as it starts to break down, but probably doesn't right now. Is the paper still really fluffy even though it's moistened?

ADDED: Also monomer's suggestion of partially composted leaf litter is a good idea.

Nappy... your guess of about 600 (euro per pound) is probably close however that is not too many for a 13 gal container. I started with two 27 gallon bins, about 2/3 filled and put about 3000 (red wigglers/euros mixed) in one bin and 5000 in the other. That was no where near high density. In the first four months the numbers way more than quadrupled without issues and last month when I added two more bins and split the populations the density was WAY more than what I'd started with in the original bins but know this, I did supply prodigious amounts of food continuously, and a generous part of it were powdered grains and other high protein items in addition to fruit and vegetable pulp.

Before I ever introduced any worms into the original bins, I'd had the bins prepared already with the bedding of coir/peat and added soil/leaf compost and buried 10 pounds of juiced pulp under the bedding for about 3 weeks to get the microbe population started and so when the worms arrived in the mail I just dumped them into the bins and they had an immediately available food source from day one... and plenty of it. Within 2 days I found many of them burrowing through the middle of that pulp pile so I assume they were eating... it soon turned into a huge mass before the week was up.

Your worms may be wandering out of the bin due to lack of a sufficiently ready food source. Yes, try to get some leaf litter in there or open a can of pure pumpkin or creamed corn or cooked spinach (packed without salt) and put it under the bedding and see what happens over the next few days.... you'll need to wait until a mass of worms begin mobbing it before turning the light off... in any case continue to keep the lid off the bin.

Somehow I missed it that you've only had this worm bin set up for 2 days! (which should make it 5 days by now)... Worm bins are an ecosystem that will take time to develop so be patient and give it a week for the worms to settle in. Remember their whole environment was just radically changed and so it will take a few days for them to adjust.... just adjusting to the pH of the bin could take a few days...

Thanks for all the great info, I will be adding more good food sources and we will see what happens

I think your bin is too sterile. How long ago did you set it up before adding the worms? Adding composted leaf litter is a good idea. Try to find some AGED horse manure. Even just a handful is great to add the needed MO to a new bin.

Nappymop, how's that new bin of yours doing? Have the worms finally stopped trying to escape the bin? Assuming they have indeed settled in, what do you think the problem was? Let us know.

Harry et al.

EARTH TO NAPPYMOP....COME IN!!!

How's that slightly more seasoned bed of yours doing? You had a lot of interested people here..........don't leave us hanging.

Harry

Agree with Harry! I've never dealt with Crawlers before, only wigglers. I always thought they preferred more solitary lives but am interested how your bin is doing! Hopefully you havent given up on the "GW verminerds" Update us please....

I think the problem was lack of decomposing food material.

O.K.......good to hear you're back on track and you've solved the mystery. Keep us posted.

Harry