If you check around you will find a horse farm somewhere near you that would love for someone to come by and shovel up some of their horse doody. If you look where they have been dumping it you will find all the red wigglers that you can use. reds are reds no matter where you find them, they are native to your yard also. You just don't see them because there is not a pile of food so they can belly up to the buffet. They are the best to me because they are the most prolific. Eat 1/2 their weight every day. I use 55 gal plastic and metal drums with the tops cut out. I keep them covered with foam rubber or card board so they can party day and night! Most cities have a dept. that grinds trees and leaves. I use this stuff a lot and it is free! They even load it. There are bags of leaves on the street every day in the fall. Coffee shops will give you all the grounds that you can use. I am working on setting up 300-55 gal drums and don't plan on paying a cent for anything!!

{{gwi:1333766}} of freshly harvested material, w/ worms, from my very active and hot compost bins - never bought a worm in my life!! see the whole story here - following page has some pics of my dedicated worm bin that I use for 'finishing' the hot compost, about 8-10 yards a year

just takes supplying them with a good environment and food source, and they'll show up and breed like ...... worms :)

Bill

wfike: Thanks for the info on city depts grinding trees and leaves. I'm going to call around today to see if my town has these items to give away.

I get several large bags of food from the grocery store every week. I also collect our tea bags, paper, junk mail, and food scraps, and my partner brings home coffee grounds from all the coffee pots where she works. We get leaves from the neighbor's trees in fall and save as much as we have room for (hoping for more leaves from the city as I love to use them as mulch).

A couple questions:
How do you harvest your 55 gal drums? Based on what you've written, it sounds like you use the entire depth of the 55 gal. Seems like it would be hard to get to the bottom of these? Do you just dump it over?

How often do you give your worms coffee grounds? I have quite a bit of grounds, but thought I'd use them sparingly as a treat. I also use them around trees and plants where I want more worm activity. The soil in my yard is hard clay, so when I transplant something, it's difficult to break up the soil for the roots. I figure the worms will help me with that, so I invite them with cg.

Do you feed your worms food scraps?

The friend who gave me the horse poo said he hasn't seen any worms in the piles in his field. I did find two worms mixed in the poo, but they don't look like the red worms I've seen online. The red worms that I find in my yard are red at the head graduating to a pinkish translucent color toward the tail. I'm not sure if these are the same worms that are being called red worms/wigglers. It doesn't really matter since they do compost for me, but I would like to know.

Bill: Nice looking bins! Thanks for the pics and info.

Do you add these worms to the bins or do they just show up?

How thick are the layers in your compost bins? I am getting so many food scraps from the grocery that I've had to set up composters and I've not done it before. I wasn't sure how deep/thick the layers should be so I made each layer pretty thin, approx 1-2" with shredded paper about 3-4". Think this will heat up? Also, I wet down the paper strips first. After reading your composting process, I'm thinking that wasn't a good idea?

What did you use for the bedding in the new worm bin? Is that just soil from your yard?

sounds like too much paper for hot composting - first put a thin layer of paper, then 2-4" of food waste or other wet material, and a thin layer of paper over that, top it with enough partly decomposed material to cover, and keep building that way to a depth of about 3', then dig that all over into another bin, mixing it up as you go, and use that as the cover material when re-filling the first bin - with lots of food waste you don't need to add any water unless it's high summer and hot, and if you're just starting bin composting, use a thin layer of soil as cover for each addition to get more bacteria happening - by the time you have one bin full, they'll be going like crazy and useing some of that material to layer in the next bin full will kick off the heat in hours - I also use some coarse sawdust to help keep an open structure with wet materials to prevent it going anaerobic - ideal size for composting is 3'x3'x3' minimum

for a worm bin, you can start with a bin full of wet shredded paper or leaves [shredded], and keep adding food waste in pockets, mixing ocassionally and adding more wet bedding as necessary - worms thrive on paper too - coffee doesn't hold moisture well, so when I do add that I mix'em in well rather than making layers or placeing in clumps

my 'yard' is a large commercial lot that's gravel down to hardpan clay - that's why I compost so much, to be able to grow anything!! {{gwi:315712}} where you can see the fresher material at the top, days previous as it goes down, to about 1 week at the bottom - I get enough produce scrap to add at least one 4" layer every day - when the first bin is filled again I take what's left in the 2nd bin and put it in the worm bin, mostly decomposed but not "matured", and the worms finish it off, along with any new material I mix lightly into the surface - I do a rough harvesting once a year, separating a lot of the worms out to return to the bin with some of the previous material, the bulk of the material goes into the garden along with the worms remaining in it - prolly many die off in the garden, but they still make food for the ones that survive! :) the way I harvest is to add fresh compost on top of 1/2 the bin over a month or so to attract most of the worms to that area so they can just be scooped off with the compost, leaving only a small number in the rest of the bin

all the worms around my place showed up when I "set the table" for them, and they breed and grow like crazy in my hot compost bins, staying in the corners when it's too hot and going to the bottom if things get too cold - here's my composting setup, which I've modified a bit, but has been going for 10-12 years now since I first built these bins to replace the pallet bin setup I had before

Bill

I am just getting started about a month and a half ago so I have not harvested anything yet. I don't plan on selling any worms till at least next summer. The drums move easily with hand trucks as I fill them outside and take them into the greenhouse to store. I think that the worms will follow the feed up as I fill the drums over time so I should be able to dig out the top foot and get most of the adult worms out and have a barrel of castings left after a few feedings and I move the top few inchs several times as the eggs hatch out. I keep them covered so the worms hang out at the top most of the time. I don't feed much food scraps as it is easier to get all the other stuff. Most of the time when I get some horse poop there are not any worms in it as I get it fresh twice a week. I found a cow farm (dairy) today that has several piles of cow poop bigger than my truck that have been sitting for years with fresh added every week. I stopped and asked and he said I could have it all and he would even load it with his tractor!! He was happy to get rid of it and I can't wait to dig in it some and see how many reds are already there! I just give coffee grounds from my pot once a week. I have not really noticed any effect or even any more worms in that area more than any other.

Bill: Thanks for the info on building the compost. The compost I built nearly filled a 55 gallon trash can that I drilled holes in (3/4" holes drilled all over the plastic can, including the bottom - hoping for worms to help the process).

The layers were:
shovel full of horse poo
1-2" layer of produce scrap
3-4" wet shredded paper (for some reason, I was thinking I needed a lot of damp browns in there)
then a thin layer of soil. Repeated layers.

Do you think I should push out a hole in the center and add more produce?

In my 30 gal worm bins I'm using soil for bedding. I line the bin with wet cardboard, and add shredded paper or leaves as a mulch and additonal fiber). I add chopped produce to one side of the 30 gal bin and cover it with a bit of soil and the mulch (this bin is turned on it's side with the sides cut out to use as bottom and top, so there is more surface area, and sunk into the ground approx 8"). I have field worms, redworms, nightcrawlers, and some other kind of worm that I haven't been able to identify in these bins, so using just paper as a bedding won't work for me. All the worms except the redworms need soil to burrow.

I'm thinking about running an experiment with these redworms. Since they look different, I want to be sure they are the redworms that the vermi-sellers are talking about. So, I'm going to maintain them in the recommended way and see how well they do. Seems like an awful lot of trouble to me - trying to maintain a healthy environment in a plastic bin indoors with no soil - but I might try it as an experiment.

So, you have two compost bins and one worm bin, right? You fill one bin till it's full (over what time period, approx a week?). After that bin is full, do you take the top layer from that first bin, put it in the second bin and begin to build it up, and add the mostly finished compost that's underneath to the worm bin? I'm trying to figure out the timing here. How long does the 1st filled bin need to compost before you add it to the worm bin? Is the mostly finished compost the only bedding in your worm bin?

Based on your positive experience, I'm thinking of building an open bottomed worm bin. I'll fill my trash can/compster as I get produce scrap and manure. When it is mostly composted (waiting on your answer to approximate how long that'll take), I'll move it to the new worm bin (thinking build it and they will come, so I won't have to find worms to fill this bin). I figure that, during the summer at least, this will take care of the abundance of produce scrap as well as give me more compost and more worms. (thinking I'll have to move these worms to an insulated bin for the winter, so they won't die)

Sure wish I had a shredder like you have. It's time comsuming, and not terribly pleasant, to chop all those rotten veggies by hand. It's great that you can fix things and made that donated shredder work for you.

I fill the compost bins as fast as I can depending on the material I scrounge - usually takes 5-10 days, or average a week - if you mix in some material that's already 'active' as you go, it happens fast - usually by the time I've filled the bin, the material below half way down is barely recognizeable

your layering sounds like it will work - a bit wet maybe, but the manure may dry it a bit if that's not too freah - you should find that after about 5 days from filling, digging into the middle will show heat, and that heat is why you can't feed a worm bin the same way with all that fresh material - once the bin is filled, don't add any more, but after 5-10 days turn it into another bin to mix it up well - doing at least one complete turning will extend the hot period to start the breakdown of material that was around the perimeters of the pile where it will be too dry to work well

once the heating stage has passed and the material can't really be identified as what you originally put in, it's ok for the worms, and you'll find that the material you put in will be reduced in volume by at least half very quickly - ultimately about 4 cu yds of input will reduce to about a yard if you have a good percentage of nitrogen rich material

starting a 'bottomless' bin I'd put a good layer of fairly unfinished compost so you have good 'bait' to lure them to the bin - once the hot stage is over, turning isn't necessary and the worm bin makes a fine place to let it 'mature', which is when the lower temp bacteria and fungi work away at it

in my situation it took quite awhile to start seeing worms, but even on the gravel they showed up, and once there's a few they breed pretty rapidly in the rich material provided - the only thing I do for mine in the winter is to put a layer of mulch on the surface and leave'em alone - they tend to cluster in the lower center areas if there's good food there, and go deeper if it's too cold - if it get's cold enough to kill them, they leave lots of cocoons that hatch as soon as it warms up, and every year there's a bigger population

good luck with it all, it is fun, and makes for a healthy productive garden!

Bill

wfike: (I tried to post this message to you yesterday, but GW wouldn't let me post again) I found out that my town will most likely drop leaves at my house, for free, if I ask the boss nicely :-D Course I have to wait till august because I missed the leaves from last year. They also said that they drop all the branches and yard refuse at the dump. People at the dump hire someone to chip/shred it for them, then they sell it to the public for $5 a truckload. I ask what they'd charge for a couple trash cans full (of wood chips) and the guy said they'd probably give me that little bit for free. Thanks for the info.

Couple questions: Do you think that waiting to harvest the 55 gal drums till they are full will make the casts compacted and mud-like?

My experience with casts (just since last april) is that they will stick together with more liquid (from their urine, the mucus they exude when they burrow, breakdown from
food) and weight added to the top. Unless you have a top-pooper, like nightcrawlers, who leave their casts on the surface, the poo will begin to stick together as it gets
wetter and more weight (food, bedding, casts) is added to the top of the bin.

When I harvested the half-barrel bin, which is approx 30" tall, I started by scraping the casts from the top (these were obviously casts, recognizable by the formed shape
and separateness). Then I realized that the other worms in there (the field worms and my native reds) leave their casts approx 2-8" from the top, depending on their habits - field worms burrow down approx 6-8", the reds anywhere from 2-4" depending on the weather. So, I removed the soil/casts all the way to the bottom and it was pretty wet, clumpy, and sticky. Of course, I did use soil as bedding so maybe yours won't be so stuck together. [I'm thinking I'm going to have to revise this bin to either hold only nightcrawlers].

I'm wondering how long it will take to fill a 55 gal drum with castings and what effect, if any, this extended period of time might have on the worms and their casts.

If I understand you correctly, you indicated that you are using shredded leaves and wood chips for bedding, and horse/cow poo and coffee grounds for feed? I'm just curious about how you will harvest your casts. Do you have a separator/harvester?

Good score on the cow poo! Hope you find tons of reds.

Bill: Thanks for all the info on composting. I agree, it is fun. Well, the worm part is fun. The composting is a lot of work.

I am going to have to build a harvester this summer. I have beed a packrat for years so I have everything to build it except the motor. I have drains in the bottom of the drums so I think they will drain well and not be to wet. I plan on selling the castings by the drum to locals and nurserys so they will be stored in the drums until they are picked up and they will return my drums. I know of a guy in Ga. that has castings that have been in the bins for ten years (over 4 ft. deep)that are still in great shape. The length of time in the drums is going to be something that I arrange by (# of worms X lbs. of feed) I will have to figure when I need to have the drum done and put the correct # of worms in it to process (with their offspring) the amount of feed in the drum added over time. I think that it may be 80 to 100 gal. of feed and bedding processed per drum and don't have any idea how many worms in the end. I am keeping a log of everything that I do to calculate everything.

I was thinking that selling the castings by the drum would cut down on the time needed to harvest, since you'd probably just have to take off the top layer to get the vast majority of worms. But, the more I think about it, the more I think you will probably have to go thru the entire barrel to get any undigested food (manure), and any straw, hay, or leaf skeletons left behind.

Also, you may have some stragglers deeper in the barrel, and maybe some babies too. I read that baby worms burrow deeper than normal when they are born (for protection) and move closer to the surface as they get older and more able to escape danger. I hear that some people are squeemish about finding worms in their worm castings. Can't imagine why, tho. :-)

Did your friend (guy in Ga.) 'grow' the castings himself? Did the bin the casts are stored in start out housing the worms that made those casts? It seems like it would not be healthy to leave the worms in their casts long enough to make 4 feet of casts, but I don't know that for sure.

I think I would be concerned about sour crop/protein buildup from any leftover food staying in the barrel. I do know that worms in the 'wild' don't make permanent burrows (except for nightcrawlers), so they move alot and wouldn't stay in the same place with all their poo, pee, and leftovers.

Of course, if you've got 10,000 worms (along with helpers like sow bugs to break down the really fibrous stuff) in those barrels it wouldn't take much time to make alot of casts

~Just the thoughts rambling 'round in my head - for what it's worth~

For now I am using 1 lb. of worms for each barrel that I am starting. 10,000 worms won't go far with several hundred barrels. I keep the 10,000 in my "maternity bed" and use what they produce. Should take about 6 months to finish a barrel so there should not be any scraps left by then. Staying in their castings for a long while won't hurt them, they can process their castings several times makeing then better each time they do. Once I pull the adult worms off of the top and stop the egg laying process it will just be a matter of letting the eggs hatch and putting some laying mash on top for them to come to the top for their desert. I don't bury any "feed" in the bedding, I only feed on top. As long as it drains well I have never had any problem with bedding (manure)souring. I water them every day sometimes twice a day in the hot summer. got good drainage. You can get away with some things on a large scale that you can't on a small scale. The guys story that I talked to with the 10 year old 2(correction)ft deep casting in in the story in the link below.
http://www.newfarm.org/features/0903/worms/index.shtml

Sounds like you have considered it all, wfike. Keep us posted. I would like to learn from your experience.

I have 3 new outdoor bins now, altho only one is populated with worms. The bins are wooden shipping crates, approx. 3'x 3'x 3'. They are a bit too deep for comfort when harvesting, but good for piling on leaves for winter insulation.

I painted the crates green to blend in and finished with a coat of polyurethane [I researched using polyurethane on a worm bin and found several articles that say it's ok...hope that info is correct...so far (populated 1 month) the worms are fine so I think it's ok].

For bedding in the populated bin I'm using partially finished compost (I just waited until it stopped heating up-it was about 2 weeks old when I put it in) on one side and aged horse manure/torn soaked cardboard on the other. I want to see which bedding material the worms prefer (so far they really seem to prefer the manure-the vast majority of worms are on this side).

In the 2 other crates I am using one each of these bedding materials. In other words, in one crate I am using compost (I add material as I have it...leaves from cut tree branches, overflow food waste, junk mail, and shredded newspaper, etc.), in the other crate I layered aged horse manure with torn soaked cardboard and last year's maple leaves.

Like I said, these 2 worm bins (crates) aren't populated with worms yet. I have them because I figure eventually I will need them as I split the population of worms in the 1st crate/bin, and I can get them free since the company was going to throw them out (what a waste of a well-constructed box...I just can't let them go to the dump!).

What I'm wondering is, if the worms prefer the horse manure/cardboard as I think they will, is it necessary to feed them other food?

If I just continue to layer aged manure (just old enough to no longer heat up), leaves, and cardboard, will this provide the worms with sufficient food to keep them reproducing and healthy/strong enough to give them a chance of living thru the winters?

Bill, if I remember correctly, you use partially finished compost as both the bedding and feedstock? As the compost breaks down and loses it's nutrient components (as far as worms are concerned), do you add additional foodstock for the worms?

I quit feeding mine reg food at all since I have so much horse and cow poop. I messed up and put 5 lbs. of frozen blackeyed peas on one of the beds and did not cover it and had thousands of flys a few days later. I have noticed that the castings are lite and fluffy all the way to the bottom of the drums. Because of the sawdust I think. The first bed was 5 ft. by 5 ft. and 3 ft deep and within 60 days they (the first 10 lbs. from Trinity) had eaten all of the bedding and about 50 gal that i added to keep the level where I wanted it.

Wow, wfike, those are some hungry worms! But then, 10 lbs. is a lot of worms, aint it :-D

How much sawdust do you add, and do you layer it with the other bedding or mix it in?

It is usually about 50/50 wood shavings and manure all mixed togeather. I just throw whatever I get that day about 15 gal. at a time into whatever drum is next in line for some more feed. I then wet it down to help get the bacteria started off in the new stuff

Instead of chopping all those spoiled veggies, you might try putting them in containers and freezing them overnight. The freezing breaks down the structure and essentially pulverizes them. I used this method to speed my composting process and it worked. Should work for vermicomposting as well, I think. I tried to build a bin a couple years ago, but my native worms were not reds, but the bigger browns, and not nightcrawlers either. Most of them died, but a few made babies and I gave up the bin. I'm going to try again this fall.

I don't remember ever seeing reds in my yard, though, so I have been counting on having to buy a batch of them. I had reds in my yard in Colorado that hibernated in a clay pot in the yard one year. When I dumped out the pot in the spring to replant it, there were more baby red wigglers in there than you could shake a stick at. Haven't had any such luck here in Texas though.

I've noticed that a lot of people mention using junk mail as bedding material. But most of the junk mail I get it is slick paper and I was wondering if this was good for the worms. I thought there was some kind of plastic coating on the shiney paper, but if it's something else that's safe for them, I'd like to know that. Also, for the cardboard bedding, I have access to a lot of the boxes that copier paper comes in. These boxes have red and black ink on them. Is that ok for the worms? And one last question, I have access to a paper shredder that can handle cardboard. Occasionally, you have to add some oil to the shredding blades, and I was wondering if that would be safe to shred the cardboard in one of these things or if the residue of oil might be harmful to them?

Any help you guys could give me I'd sure appreciate. I've really enjoyed reading the information that you both ahve shared here. Many of the other GW forums are so stagnated that the info doesn't change from one month to another. So it's nice to see people who are active here.

Cheryl

wfike, are you adding wood shavings to improve the texture of the casts or to help aerate the bedding?

I've read, and surmise, that wood shavings take a long time to break down, so I'm assuming you aren't adding them as feedstock, am I figuring this correctly?

I've also read, from several older vermi books (and the Vermiculture_FarmersManual), that horse manure by itself is not the best feed, but that cattle manure is good. Do you mix the 2 as feedstock and bedding?

I guess what I'm trying to understand is whether you use horse manure as feedstock and feel it is an adequate feed by itself. I added soaked, torn corrugated cardboard to the horse manure because I'd read that it has excellent nutrition due to the high-protein glue that is used to hold the layers together. Another advantage that corrugated cb has is it's water absorbancy, so the 2 (horse manure and corrugated cb) mixed together make a good bedding and a good feedstock.

But, you know, you can find all sorts of contradictions when comparing books, websites, and opinions...so I'm interested in what you find to be true, based on your experience.

Cheryl, I have been freezing the food waste lately. It does seem to speed things up a bit, but there is still the issue of varying amounts of water being released, mold/fungus, and odors if you use too much or have strong smelling foods to vermicompost.

I've found that as much as I want to keep food waste from the landfills, it's a lot of aggravation (too much water, mold, fruit flies, fungus gnats, march flies, houseflies, odors..etc), inconvenience (both of my freezers are half full of food waste for the worms, leaving only half for my own food), and guess-work involved in feeding food waste to the worms.

Now, if I didn't have access to horse manure and corrugated cardboard, I would still use primarily food waste. But since I do have access to those materials, I much prefer using them. I have encountered very few issues/problems using horse manure and corrugated cb. So, I ease my conscious by reminding myself that these 2 items would have been dumped in a landfill somewhere, had I not taken them.

I still plan on freezing some food waste to use as trench feedings in my raised beds. This practice has eliminated all issues/problems with using food waste because it is buried 4-6" under the soil, and I have many worms in my raised beds who process this food quickly (and thank me for the cold stuff when it's hot outside).

The junk mail I use are advertisements for credit cards, various insurance, and a hodgepodge of solicitations. I just remove them from the envelope and tear into strips that could be used as bedding (I put them in the compost crate, so they will be partially composted by the time the worms get to it). I don't use glossy papers, not because they are bad for the worms, but because they take forever to break down and I don't like the look of them in the compost.

The
Vermiculture FarmersManual recommends shredding cardboard that has a waxed coating, so I assume wax is safe to use if shredded or had the wax seal broken in some other fashion . I've read that oils are not good for worms (I assume oil would smother them since they breath thru their skin), but I wouldn't think a small amount would be harmful.

The boxes that you have should be fine. Most of the corrugated cardboard that I use has colored printing on it and I haven't noticed any problems with it (the majority of people say that most inks are soy based now). I also use shredded office paper in the indoor bin I just created, and to absorb water from the barrel bins outside when rain has been heavy, and that paper has been thru laser printers. I haven't seen any ill effects from any of the paper products I have used.

Welcome to the thread, Cheryl. I look forward to reading about your experiences in the vermi-world.

I am using the shavings because they are mixed in with the horse poop when I get it. Shavings seem to take a little longer to process but in the 60 days on the first few beds they are not recognizable as wood, just fluffy bedding I will add a picture of it in a day or so. I only feed them other stuff when I want to get them up on the top to get them out of one bed to put into another. I used laying mash crumbles for that. If I have a bunch of cardboard I stand it up in the drums wet it and pile the manure/sawdust on top and down the sides covering it up good and keeping it damp. I dont even cut it up or anything as I am in no hurry. There are enough worms to eat it all. The card board gets saturated with the damp manure anyway. The worms don't seem to like one over the other.

I use whatever is available for free on my interbay mulch bed as long as it will eventually break down. Some of it takes a long time to break down I usually move that stuff to the side or into another bed until it eventually breaks down. I use 2 seperate beds one in which I grow in and the other will be covered all year in compostables. Then next year I switch and any parts that are not composted gets removed to the inactive bed. Glossy paper, cardboard, waxed cardboard, wood shavings, saw dust, grocery store food wastes you name it if it will eventually break down into something useful it gets added. I have plenty of worms in my gardens and have never noticed a decrease from anything I have fed them.