First Timer Planting a Grass Lawn, Review My Plan Please!
Comments (11)
David Westfall
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agoRelated Discussions
first timer allotment need advice - new year!
Comments (27)'I was going to remove the turf on the first Sq. metre today. and then as I soon thought where am I going to put it? (is there anything I can do with removed turf? or should I just forget it?).' As pnbrown says do not discard the turf. Either compost it or put it at the bottom of the double depth trench. Look again at instructions for double digging. Find pictures of couch grass. If your turf is couch grass you need to shake off the soil and remove the roots. Don't dig them in or compost them because they will regrow. You can put them in bin bags and let them rot completely then put on the compost heap. Or burn them. Or bin them. If the turf is lawn grass just dig it under. Regarding 'first frost/last frost/frost dates', etc. All that really applies more to US gardeners who are working in much more clearly delineated temperatures than we are. I gardened for several decades before starting on these forums and never heard any of those terms until I came on here. You need to look up each plant you want to grow and follow advice for it. Don't assume there is a single rule. We could have one frost in September and then no more until Christmas so there's a lot of leeway. You can plant trees and shrubs all through the winter whenever the ground isn't actually rock hard. Broad beans and peas for overwintering need to be in when there is still enough warmth for them to germinate or they'll rot. ) October/ November is fine. Garlic can go in at a similar time. If your sister has access to manure, lucky you. Pile it up for 6 months before you use it or get it from the stables' oldest pile. Do use other allotment holders for advice. They'll be very pleased to see a youngster taking an interest, I'm sure. But you are still fixated on planting. Soil preparation is your top priority at the moment. If you can get say a third of the plot done this winter you can really get growing next spring. Meanwhile bash on with the rest of the plot prep....See MorePlanning my 2013 lawn care calendar
Comments (12)You can't tie a preemergent weed controller to a date on the calendar. There has been a LOT of discussion about this topic over the years. For awhile, recognizing that timing was critically important to the success of the product, there was not much more than lamenting the inability to predict the time. Then one of the gurus suggested using one of Mother Nature's "whispers" to tell. The blooming of the forsythia plant was the time. Well, not everyone has forsythia. My personal refinement on timing is to apply it after the soil temps hit 50 degrees AND a spring rainstorm hits. The soil has to be warm enough and there has to be sufficient, sustained moisture for crabgrass to germinate. I strongly suspect these conditions precede the blooming of the forsythia, but I'm one who does not have that plant to go by. I do have a cherry tree down the road that always blooms in Feb, so I go by that. Then again I don't have a crabgrass problem so I don't use preemergents. If you use the shampoo two times separated by two weeks, you won't need the aerator. Normal soil is soft when wet and hard when dry. But it should soften again when it gets wet. So called, compacted soil, does not soften when wet. The problem that prevents the soil from softening is the lack of an adequate population of beneficial fungi in the soil. Deep watering with a little soap will create the environmental conditions to foster the rapid growth of these microbe helpers. Use only clear shampoo. The cloudy stuff has oils in it that do not help. My personal opinion is that spraying insecticide because you think you might have a problem is not helpful. There is an organic solution to grubs. It is called beneficial nematodes. These little guys bring an insect disease to the grubs and paralyze them. Then they feed on the insects and procreate. I get BN locally but the original source is this place in Colorado. Apply them with a hose-end sprayer. But first, apply about 3/4-inch of water (or a couple days of rainfall). The BN must have a film of water to move on. They cannot move in dry soil. So first get the soil wet, then apply the BN, then finish with another 1/4-inch of water. Milorganite is fine. I never use it because it has more heavy metals in it than alfalfa pellets (rabbit chow) and alfalfa is lower cost. Probably the reason you did not see any greening effect is you were starting with virgin soil. By next June the soil will be depleted enough to see a greening effect as well as the turf becoming more dense. Here is a demonstration photo showing the effect of alfalfa pellets on a zoysia lawn. This apparently is a very effective photo. I have had clerks at the local feed store tell me about more and more people coming in to get alfalfa pellets for their lawn. The alfalfa was applied in May 2011 and the photo taken in June. Organic fertilizers typically don't show results for 3 full weeks. If you are really indifferent about the soil test, then I would go to Logan Labs. You will get a better read on that test. If you search Google for "logan labs, andy, morpheuspa" you will find a place where you can get guru level help for free. They have been reading LL soil tests for many years. Do not add more topsoil unless you need to change the way your yard drains...because topsoil WILL change the way your yard drains. If you don't start with it right up against the house, then water will drain toward the house. If you do not have 4 full inches of foundation visible below the sill plate on your house, then you should be removing topsoil instead of bringing new soil in. The sill plate is the top of your foundation where the ground floor starts. As you can tell, I am not a fan of topsoil. Oh, and it always has weeds in it. When I need "topsoil" to fill a low spot, I get a local product that is 50/50 sand and "compost." What it really is is half sand and half fresh horse dung. That stuff is hotter than a pistol when it's delivered. Weed seeds cook off in such hot conditions for any amount of time. Plus the sand is very easy to deal with, spreads easily with no clods, and takes roots well. Compost is nice if you can get it for free. Use no more than 1 cubic yard per 1,000 square feet of lawn. For gardens you can pile it deep, but lawns will smother underneath compost. I see it in my neighborhood every year. There is one lawn that has not recovered in several years. Another keeps repeating the mistake every other year. Their lawn almost completely recovered from an app last spring before the grass stopped growing last week or so. It is sad to see the huge emphasis on compost by the radio show garden experts. They seem to recommend 2 cubic yards per thousand. That will smother even a bermuda lawn. In my neighborhood compost costs about $75 per yard to have it delivered. That means $75 per 1,000 square feet. Or I can apply alfalfa for about $5 per 1,000 square feet. I get a huge bang for the buck applying the alfalfa and almost nothing from compost. Add that to the agony of spreading compost and the possibility of smothering the lawn, and I just keep away from it. I can apply 15 apps of alfalfa for the cost of compost....See MoreFirst timer here . . . can you please double check my process
Comments (11)Many "landscapers" and some "horticulturists" will come in and plunk down a thin layer of soemthing they call "topsoil" and plant and then for the next several years you try, diligently, to keep the plants from dying spending a lot of money on fertilizers and sprays to keep insect pests and plant diseases from consuming those plants. Better is to take the time now to make the soil you have into a good, healthy soil that will grow strong and healthy plants that can better resist insect pests and plant diseases. Your soil should be well endowed with organic matter so it is evenly moist but well drained. While animal manure can add nutrients it does need more vegetative waste to help hold those nutrients in the root zone and provide a home to the Soil Food Web that will be feeding those plants. If your soil is sand the organic matter will fill in the very large pore spaces between the sand particles which will help hold both nutrients and moisture in the soil. If you have clay soil that same organic matter will open up spaces between the soil particles so your plants roots can move around and find both the nutrients and moisture that are now more readily available. Perhaps these simple soil tests might be of some help. 1) Structure. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. A good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top. 2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains� too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up. 3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart. 4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer your soil will smell. 5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy. A good, reliable soil test, maybe from your state universities Cooperative Extension Service would also be a good idea....See MorePlease review my renovation plans!
Comments (16)You can slit seed if you want, and if the existing dead grasses are very thick. It'll help with seed-soil contact, although it isn't strictly necessary if you don't wish to. Slit seeders should be set to barely (1/4" or a little less) nick the soil, and won't cause excessive problems with additional weeds. They also disturb the soil too little to cause problems with the biology or structure. The starter is actually going to be an advantage for the new lawn. The September 1 app won't bring much nitrogen to the table as the new roots won't be able to absorb it--but it does add phosphorus, which hangs around indefinitely and waits. By October, the new grass will want a gentle feeding, and starter is on the low end of nitrogen feeding. Doing things perfectly? In addition to the starter, I'd drop Milorganite, soybean meal, or cottonseed meal with the seed (it won't release until 3 weeks later and gives a gentle feed for some months), and then do it again on October 15. That'll give your new lawn a good base of slow and fast nitrogen to grow on. What did I do? I poured on organics during seeding and the first fall at fantastically high rates, but already had a soil that had adjusted to organic feeding and could handle it easily. Development of the new lawn was incredibly fast and strong....See More
reeljake
8 years agoDavid Westfall
8 years agoreeljake
8 years ago
dchall_san_antonio
8 years agoI'm familiar with the Phoenix brick wall yard. Do you or your neighbors have any trees that cast a shadow over your yard? And which direction does the back of the house face? The reason I ask is a friend of mine in Gilbert fought with his sissoo tree trying to grow bermuda for years. He finally went with St Augustine and is very happy. Contrary to what you're thinking, it isn't that hard to keep grass green in Phoenix, even St Augustine. During the heat wave y'all had last August (115 in the shade) he was watering the St Aug once every 4 days. Here's a picture of his back under the sissoo. - taken last March 2015.
That's a west wall to the right so from mid morning on his yard is shade. St Aug is a lot easier to care for than bermuda, so you might consider going with that.
Tell me about your shade and I'll help you get prepped. I'm not worried about the slope, so that's good. You do not need any more soil, though, so get that out of your mind. You just need to fix the soil you have. That's easier than your plan.
Generally grass seed goes down on top of the soil and should not be buried. What you do is press it down either with a heavy roller or with your feet. If you go with bermuda seed, get a mix of Sahara, Princess, and Yukon.
First you need to get the soil as settled and level as possible. Get the sprinkler on it and water it deep. Apply at least 1/2 inch all at one time. Put some cat food or tuna cans out and time how long it takes to fill the cans. That's 1 inch. That will be your watering time from now on, so memorize it. My time is 8 hours for my water pressure, hose, and oscillator sprinkler. That's a nice gentle rain. But then I don't water again for at least a week. The soil needs to dry out completely before watering again...but I'm getting ahead of myself. Water the ground until it's pretty wet. Then don't walk on it or you could compact it. Let it dry for a couple days and see where the low spots have developed. If you have a low spot in the center you should pull soil up from a spot that is supposed to be lower into the center to raise it up. There should be a slight crown in the center so the water will drain away from there - but not toward the house. If you need more soil I suggest a relatively coarse, gritty sand. Gritty like aquarium sand with sharp edges, but not nearly that huge of a particle. The bermuda will grow up through the sand just fine, and sand is easy to move around to get it level. Level the soil/sand with a long board and/or a home made drag. Drag it level, water to settle, and reevaluate whether you need more sand for the new low spots. Keep watering every few days to settle the soil. This will also sprout as many weed seeds as you can. Once you have it level it should be the end of this month. Then spray the new weeds with Round Up to kill them. Keep watering to sprout more weeds. A week later spray out the new weeds. Then you're ready to seed. Scatter the seed, walk on it to press it into the surface of the soil. Water 3x per day (breakfast, lunch, and dinner) for just long enough to moisten the soil - not saturate it. It should never be soggy. Do that until you get 80% germination. Then start backing off on watering frequency and going up on the time. We have plenty of time to cover that detail.
Note that this is completely different from the plan you came in here with. If you would like me to go through your plan, step by step, and explain why this is different, I can do that.
So here's my problem with bermuda, especially for new folks. If you really want it to look good, it needs FULL sun for at least 6 hours per day. This means that the grass that is north, east, or west of a building, brick wall, tree, or shrub will be thin and ugly. You can reseed every year and pull out all the stops, but it won't grow there. Secondly Bermuda is a nitrogen hog. If you want it to look good it needs to be fertilized with a high N fertilizer once a month. Thirdly it needs to be mowed at the mower's lowest setting 2x to 3x per week depending on how fast it's growing. If you have any holes for the mower wheels to fall into, it will scalp the grass. The good thing about bermuda is that if you stop watering it for 6 months, it will come back with the first rain.
St Augustine, on the other hand, only needs fertilizer 3x per year, mowing at the highest setting every other week, and is shade tolerant. It is a little more expensive to get started because it does not come as a seed. It will die in Phoenix if you don't water it for a month in 115 degree temps. But it should go 3 weeks and recover with water.
This is probably generating lots of questions. I'm happy to explain anything I've said. I'll addressing proper watering or you can search this forum for "deep and infrequent".
David Westfall
8 years agoI appreciate the help I really only decided on Bermuda since I had read up its ideal here because it goes dormant in winter then back to life in spring so no need to reseed it. If St. Augustine can make it through the summer temps I'm all for it since it will need less direct sunlight it sounds.
Speaking of shade my yard is on the west side of my house so from about 11am - 4ish it has full sun before shad is much of an issue.
So no mulch good to know I saw an article about covering the seed with a thin layer of it. What should I do with the manure sitting on it currently? I could rake it all out since its been sitting there on top of the previously turned up dirt for about a month.
The good news is since I took out all the weeds only have seen two regrowing so I'm not too worried about that because after I pulled them all in February I sprayed the ground with roundup and after digging the roots that were left were dead.
If you don't mind going through it step by step I would very much appreciate that as you are saving me from trying my poor plan lol.
newtolawncare Scranton 6a
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agoDavid Westfall
8 years agonewtolawncare Scranton 6a
8 years agoreeljake
8 years ago
dchall_san_antonio