I'm working on that. I called the guy that actually installed it, on his cell phone and he is in FL for training. He told the office they need to get someone out to our house immediately. Waiting for them to open this am so I can call again.

Your backup/aux heat should be on its own breaker. Turn all
geo breakers off, then turn back on only the geothermal heat pump, leaving the
backups ‘Off’ and see what happens.

ALL geothermal heat pump systems that have liquid circulated
in plastic HDPE ground loops, as in your case, should have flow meters and solar
digital temperature gauges for both ‘Entering Water Temperature’ & ‘Leaving
Water Temperature’ installed, otherwise you’re ‘flying blind’! It’s like going
to a doctor that doesn’t own a stethoscope, thermometer or blood pressure meter
- it’s that basic!

IMPO

SR

Blue - White Flow Meter

" I called the guy that actually installed it, on his cell phone and he is in FL for training"

There might be a connection.

If the compressor is working, and it should shut down if not, I'd suspect loss of fluid in the ground loop.

“If the compressor is working, and it should shut down if
not, I'd suspect loss of fluid in the ground loop.”

“If the compressor is
working, and it should shut down”, doesn’t make any sense.

“I'd suspect
loss of fluid in the ground loop.” Based on what? That is the least likely
cause, unless liquid or liquid stains are visible in the mechanical room.

IMPO

SR

"and the bill was $711."

Well there goes your energy savings. Sure hope they don't charge you for the service call.

"and the bill was $711."

“Well there goes your energy savings. Sure hope they don't
charge you for the service call.”

True. This is why I always advise installing monitoring measures,
as mentioned in my above post, so that the end user has a way of monitoring the
efficiency of their system. Typically, the client or installers don’t install
these devices as a cost saving measure. Typically I see many cases where the client was unaware that something has gone
awry and has spent many hundreds if not thousands of dollars on electricity before
it’s noticed – and when it’s too late.

If you have a geo system and you are not away on vacation,
my advice would be to turn ‘Off’ the breakers for the backup/aux heat,
particularly if you don’t routinely monitor your energy consumption. That way
you will immediately be informed that ‘something’ is not right with your geo
system because you will become ‘cold’. However, if weather conditions are below
the low limit of ‘Outdoor Design Temperatures’, well all bets are off and
you’ll need your backup. When away on vacation or for a prolonged period of
time, the backup must be left ‘On’ to avoid frozen or burst water pipes etc.

IMPO

SR

Emergency (auxiliary) heating engaging after 5 minutes of run time sounds like a limit is shutting down your heat pump. Since your installer is not responding quickly enough, you'll either have to to find another tech or go at it yourself. If you decide to DIY, I suggest you post on www.geoexchange.org/forum. They have the most comprehensive GSHP information available, at least that's what I found.

“I'd suspect loss of fluid in the ground loop.” Based on what? That is the least likely cause, unless liquid or liquid stains are visible in the mechanical room.

Ground loops can develop underground leaks that are not seen inside. This is based on my own experience where it was the cause. YMMV

as for "If the compressor is working, and it should shut down if not" - oops, I edited down a longer draft too fast. It should have said "If the compressor is losing freon, and the compressor should shut down if so"

"Your backup/aux heat should be on its own breaker. Turn all geo breakers off, then turn back on only the geothermal heat pump, leaving the backups ‘Off’ and see what happens."

Well that didn't work. After everything started back up with the heat strip breakers off, the thermostat said that it was on auxiliary heat and only cold air came out of the ducts. And to make matters worse, there are no flow meters and solar digital temperature gauges as you mentioned.

The service guy will be here in the am and I have the heat turned off so I can keep a little money in my wallet.

“Ground loops can develop underground leaks that are not
seen inside. This is based on my own experience where it was the cause. YMMV”

That is usually a HUGE and expensive problem to correct! How
did that happen, what was the fix and cost of repair? Generally, if the leak is
in the borehole and it cannot be ‘fixed’ with some sort of additive, the
borehole has to be abandoned and redrilled.

Even though it may be more expensive at time of
installation, I generally recommend that all headers be installed within the mechanical room and NOT buried! That way groundloop troubleshooting
is greatly facilitated when they can be easily isolated, diagnosed and
individually flushed & purged without the expense of unnecessary
excavations.

IMPO

SR

@ fsq4cw. This in one month after my first post and our GEO is still not working. I am heating my house with a wood stove and space heaters. I'm so glad that we spent $17k on this system instead of using the $$ for something useful.

I want your professional opinion on the whole thing so I will give you a brief rundown from day 1. The unit is a Carrier model 50YGV038JD2C311. Within the the first two days of installation, they replaced the thermostat and the board and it was okay for a year plus. We had a spring and fall service that was included with the installation and I had them do both. Since my electric bill went through the roof, they have replaced the following; a thermistor, a schrader valve, dumped all the freon and refilled it, the pump, another thermostat, and another board, as well as goosing the system, that I know of (my list is not necessarily in order).

When they first started all of this, they tried to say if we would have had them do the fall service, this would not have happened. We did have the fall service, their tech didn't record it properly. They also sent me a bill for the first visit to diagnose the problem and the second visit to pay a service fee to replace the warranty part (thermistor).

I have had to miss work for all of these service calls and we still don't have heat. At this point, I'm ready to get the neighbors backhoe, dig everything up, empty the house of all the equipment and dump it in their driveway.

Please give me your honest professional opinion about anything relevant; the system, the warranty, parts replaced, etc...

Thank you!

Gary

These are complicated systems - you need people who know what they are doing - apparently your repair people don't.

Also, not to pile it on, but most of these Geo systems won't give you a payback for 20 years. As you are finding out.

Gary,

As geoffrey said above, your people don't seem to be skilled enough to resolve your problems. Twice a year service on a GSHP is very unnecessary IMO, unless they are changing your filters for you. I've gone 3 years without service, but I do monitor my system.

You've got to make the decision on which route you're going to take to try to resolve this. If you want internet help and are willing to be hands on, I again recommend that you post on www.geoexchange.org/forum. I was in a similar situation and got a lot of help there. I've also seen threads where the pros that contribute to the site have gone to homes when they are within their reach. You may also get a referral to a competent tech company.

Not trying to take anything away from this forum, just trying to help you get to a better place as I know the feeling. Good luck.

Response I

I’ll provide some general thoughts
as a lot of information is missing and I am not on site. I will also try to
answer in a way that may benefit others contemplating geothermal for
themselves.

First, is this geothermal
system properly sized for the ductwork it’s fitted to? If not, you will likely always
have problems of one sort or another, particularly if the ductwork,
both supply and return, are too small. That is irrespective of whatever type of
heat pump is installed, geothermal or air-source.

Do you have a proper ‘As
Built Book’ that goes with this installation? An ‘As Built Book’ is a document
that contains the system design, including heat gain/loss load calculations, including
indoor/outdoor design temperatures specific to your geographic location, equipment
owner/installation manuals, every
detail of the ground loop design, and underground physical location of all its
parts and components relative to above ground reference points that will likely
remain unchanged for perhaps 100-years or more, GPS positions or both for
future location in case of trouble.

A proper ‘As Built Book’ (really
a CD or DVD) should contain all details of the working fluid in the ground
loops, including anti-freeze type and concentration. It should contain a parts
list of every ground loop joint, coupling or elbow, type and size, as they
contribute to fluid resistance in specific ways that have to be calculated for
to determine the Reynolds number or turbulence of the liquid in the ground loops
for proper (efficient) heat transfer with the ground. The type of borehole configuration
must also be documented, as in series or parallel plumbing of the borehole HDPE
pipes, as well as borehole depth, diameter, feet of well casing, etc. A driller’s
log of ground conditions including depth of overburden till solid rock, ground
anomalies encountered and at what depth (voids, boulders, rivers, etc.), type
and method of grouting, including grout mixing procedures should also be
documented and included. A picture should be taken - with the owner on-site - verifying
the depth of each borehole - by taking a picture of the measured weighted tape
drawn to the bottom of the borehole with the other end sticking out of the top
of the borehole indicating the exact length in feet and inches out at the top
of the borehole. Flow center type and configuration must also be documented
along with plumbing schematic diagram including all cut off ball valves. All
pipes must be properly labeled as to type
and with clear arrows of flow
direction.

A proper ‘As Built Book’ should
also contain detailed hi-rez pictures of EVERYTHING – EVERYTHING - including
labels on unopened equipment boxes that arrive on-site with model and serial
numbers to be verified against the details of your contract –
before opening!

Response II

The entire start-up
procedure must be accurately
followed and documented according to
the manufacturers specifications included in their installation manual or
industry norms. This must include all flush cart procedures of purging,
flushing, filling, adding of antifreeze and stabilizers if added.

The purpose of the ‘As Built
book’ is to have a ‘baseline’ of operation when the system was installed and
hopefully working properly and up to spec so that any competent tech can come on-site and fully understand within a
reasonable time frame what was done, how it was done and have a baseline of
comparison; just like having cardiograms - before
the heart attack!

If this has not been done,
then all the procedures they are now doing must be logged and COP calculated.
You should know Entering Water Temperature (EWT) and Leaving Water Temperature
(LWT) at the heat pump from and to the borehole runouts. You should also know
the Entering Air Temperature (EAT) and Leaving Air Temperature (LAT) at the
plenums. As previously stated in this thread, a Blue-White Flow Gauge is also
useful for the owner and techs to easily
verify flow rate. Electrical current draw should also be logged with and
without compressor running and with each stage of backup running as well. If
possible static pressure measurements of the ductwork should also be taken with
the system running and under load. This should be compared to specs in the
installation manual of the HP.

At this point, the piece of
test equipment that might be most useful to you is your electrical utility
meter. Learn how to use it effectively (You-Tube videos) and monitor your
electrical consumption measured in kW on a monthly, weekly or even daily basis
if needed, as this will tell you where you are and when your system goes off
the trails. Run tests if you can with and without your backup breakers ‘On’ to
establish ‘some’ sort of rough baseline.

Response III

Find the right
professionals; you may have to change companies. Your contractor does not sound competent. What exactly is,
“goosing the system”? No professional I work with ever uses such a term. That seems like a dead give away that they
don’t know what they’re doing; a system is either running efficiently as
designed or it isn’t. Did they ‘dump’ the refrigerant and refill the system
because of a defective Schrader valve? What’s the ‘Dumping’ procedure? I hope
they mean ‘responsibly recapture’. Why are they replacing thermostats, boards
(from where?) and thermistors? Are your Schrader valves properly capped? Properly
capped, they shouldn’t leak (usually) even if they are defective.

Personally and
professionally speaking, if this were my home, geothermal would be installed as
if it were a human mission to Mars – with a return! Everything would be
properly designed, planned, executed and fully
documented, such that if I had to take legal action (heaven forbid) against a
contractor, I would be more than half way to Mars (legally speaking) before
they even hung up the phone!

IMPO

SR

Thanks stickman42!

SR

No problem SR. Thanks for the most comprehensive explanation on what to do before and during the install. I feel for the OP because I, like he, have to play the hand we were dealt. My installer went chapter 7 not long after my install, while my electric bills were still sky high. I had almost no choice but to dive in myself. And thanks to the good people in forums like this, I am reaping the benefits of this type of heating and cooling now. I do keep tabs on my system's operation with a data logger (http://www.welserver.com/WEL0899/). I plan on adding power consumption info to the site in the very near future. At this stage, I find how these things work very interesting.

fsq4, lots of words but not so much advice. It's too late to redo the install so why dwell on that?

Gary, I'm just a fellow homeowner but it sounds like you're dealing with an inept HVAC contractor. I'd call Carrier to see if they can recommend a better HVAC company and to let them know of the problem you're having. And maybe even call a lawyer too.

With HVAC services but especially so with ground source heat pumps, having an experienced and high quality contractor makes all the difference. As Geoffrey suggests, other than in locations where only electricity is available, installing these systems is EXTREMELY expensive and risky should something go south. Cost savings may never be realized by the person buying the new installation.

Some people are idiots; I
guess they just can’t help themselves. Their advice is of limited value.

Stickman, I like your
logging system, lots of useful information. Actually more than meets the eye,
if you know how to read between the lines – and graphs!

Thanks for sharing.

SR

Well said! I couldn't agree more.