I would think that if the only sink in the kitchen is on the island it's even more important to have a large sink; more room to tuck dirty dishes out of sight and off the counter until they go in the DW. Even with a 36" base you'll sill have more than 42 inches of countertop work space.

Thanks for the input. I find cast iron pretty easy to keep clean. It needs a scrub with Bar Keeper's friend and little elbow grease, but I can get the black marks out pretty easily. But, I appreciate hearing about the experience with stainless because, as I said, I have never really had it. My reasoning in getting a smaller sink has to do more with storage than counterspace. I feel like the extra 9 inches of drawer space, etc. might be nice, but really, a larger sink might make more sense. Thanks for the comments!

"...I think the island will be about 8 feet (maybe 8.5 feet)..."

If your island is 8' wide (assume the smaller #), that means it's 96" wide.

96" - 1.5" side overhang - 24" DW - 36" sink base leaves only 34.5" of workspace.

Remember that if you have only one sink, then that sink is shared b/w the Prep & Cleanup Zones and you should really have a minimum of 36" of clear workspace on each side - with 42" far better on the Prep Zone side. So, I think you're correct about trying to use a smaller sink base. Ideally, your island should be:

1.5" overhang + 12" cabinet + 24" DW + 30" sink base + 42" cabinets + 1.5" overhang = 111" = 9'3"

Since you don't have that, then I would eliminate or reduce the 12" cabinet on the DW side to still allow you at least 42" of workspace on the Prep Zone side of the sink base.

If you eliminate it, then you will need a 1" to 1.5" partition to support the DW b/c it will then be on an end. So,

1.5" overhang + 1.5" partition + 24" DW + 30" sink base + 42" cabinets + 1.5" overhang = 100.5" = 8'4.5" (close to 8.5').

(Obviously if you have a wider sink base, then the island should be wider.)

buehl, you are awesome! Thanks for this. I think the sink I am considering needs a 28" cabinet. Kohler says 27 and 28, so I will say 28 to be safe.

Your comment makes me think of something I just heard the other day from a high-end kitchen designer. She recommends 3/4 inch overhang for inset cabinets. I currently have inset and my countertop overhangs about 1.25. In her view, this is wrong--it is the overhang for overlay cabinets. Have you ever heard this? It has never bothered me. Maybe I just do 1.5 again so I get the extra space...?

Buehl, one more thing on island. I want to have my trash pullout--18 inches--and my DW there. Does this change your math? When I get a layout finalized, I can post it, but I think you are confirming that I should plan for the Riverby. Do you feel like 22.25 is enough space in the sink? It fits my most used cookie sheet and my biggest skillet.

I have a double-bowl sink with the larger bowl 21.5" wide (interior) and it fits everything except the 30" wide shelf & deli drawer from my refrigerator (36" wide refrigerator). Here's a picture:

So, yes, I think 22.5" interior would be fine.

Regarding the overhang. Yes, you could go shallower over inset, but keep in mind that the overhang is to protect your cabinets/doors/drawer panels/hardware, so I would not go any less than 1". You want spills to drop to the floor, not run down your cabinets or on your knobs/pulls.

(Working up an island example for you right now!)

Buehl - for my own education (and since I don't have an undermount sink in a 36" base anymore to check on my own) is the "typical" undermount sink average cutout in a 36" base 33 inches?

Here is a ROUGH layout of the kitchen. I think the measurements on either side of stove top are wrong. I think it will be more like 41 inches on either side (I think the wall will be more like 191 or 192, not 195). Island will wrong long side parallel to the stovetop (it says HOOD).

If you can find a sink you like that has interior shelving, I would recommend you consider that option. More sinks are out there than before. I don't read the best reviews on the Stages 33, but we have the stages 45 on a 10 foot island and how much I love that thing after only a few weeks is probably illegal. The 45 can function as much less because of the shelving system. For example, we had a big party last night and put the 2 included cutting boards on the sink shelves to expand the counter area. It is also easy to scoot dishes under a cutting board so not visible.

Nightowl, good advice. I think just considering the cutting board made for this sink would be worthwhile to add counterspace. Thanks!

BenjesBride...Yes - if you don't want to have to scribe the sink base or have the rim over the walls of the sink base.

In reality, you can get away with a sink with an exterior dimension (including mounting rims) up to around an inch or so of the cabinet depth - maybe even 1/2" - without having to scribe the cabinets (depending on the thickness of your cabinet's walls). However, if you ever need to replace the sink, it's better to have a sink no wider than the cabinet's interior width - which can range from 28" to 29" in a 30" cabinet (with 1" and 1/2" thick walls, respectively).

The "final" cutout size will depend on the sink - there are some variations. Expect anywhere from 32" to 34".

Note that scribing a cabinet to make a sink fit will void the warranty on that cabinet.

Here's what I came up with (b/f I saw your latest posts Kelleg!)

In this case, your island would be:

1" overhang + 6" cabinet + 24" DW + 28" sink base + 18" trash pullout + 24" drawer base + 1" overhang = 102" = 8'6"

.

So much to learn!

:-)

Buehl, so cool! What do you see going in the 6 inch cabinet? Why do you have that there? You said something about the DW being on end. What is the issue with that? Looking at my layout, do you like the DW on left? I was thinking it might be good to have the trash near the drawers for the prep space--knives in the drawers, etc. The kitchen table is down at the right end of the island. We will be empty nesters about a year after this kitchen is finished. We may eat more meals at the island than we do now. Thanks for the mockup! So fun to see.

6" cabinet - cutting boards or other thin items. Maybe even a dish towel rack that pulls out - but then I would not put a door on it b/c you will need to have air circulation if you have damp towels hanging inside.

DWs need support on each side. Normally, that comes from cabinets flanking the DW. When you don't have a cabinet on each side, then you have to put in a wall using a 1" or so finished end panel to act as that support. I think I've seen some places where they used 1.5" or thicker as well.

If you need that much anyway, why not just make it a narrow cabinet and get some storage out of it?!

Kelleg - will it be open on the left and bottom sides?

Will the sink be on the same side as the cooktop?

Am I reading it correctly (upper cabinets)?

32.5" tall oven cabinet (with a TV & double ovens) + 43.5" cabinet + 52" hood + 43.5" cabinet + 24" cabinet = 195.5"

Assuming you drop to 192", I would just reduce the 43.5" cabs to 42" and the oven to 31.5" (that's the narrowest I think you can use for 30" ovens). That will gain you 1.5" + 1.5" + 1" = 4"

195" - 4" = 191"

--------

Will aisles be at least 48" b/w the range wall and the island and 45" b/w the refrigerator and island (assuming a counter-depth refrigerator)?

If there's a wall "below" the island, will there be at least:

42" deep island

and

44" aisle if no traffic or 48" to 60" if traffic behind the island

Buehl, thanks for all the questions and interest. You are reading it correctly. Uppers are what the measurements are showing. The cabinet guy is the one who drew this up. He put the 32.5 for ovens. I am not sure why that number. I would need to confirm that he can go narrower. I thought 52 for the hood was pretty wide. Cooktop is 36, but I want to have pullouts on either side.

I love the cutting board idea for the little cabinet. Right now, I keep mine in a drawer.

We aren't sure about the space between island and perimeter. The left side of the kitchen opens to a big dining area, although, we are putting a walk in pantry just around the corner of the ovens. At an angle. Then, the wall opposite of the cooktop is now being opened up. It used to be a small dining area. We are making it a TV/family room. There will about a 12 foot cased opening between the two areas. I am trying to keep the kitchen tight so the stools at the island don't flow into that opening. This is the area where it is a bit gray. We are just finalizing plans with the architect, so I am a bit unsure of the dimensions. I told the cabinet guy I wanted at least 42 inches between perimeter and island. I guess I tell him to draw what you suggest and then see how it works out when we get the floor plan from architect. How much overhang do you suggest at the island for seating?

Island....The NKBA recommends (and I concur) the following for counter-height seating:

Seating overhang...A minimum of 15" of clear leg/knee space (after accounting for decorative doors/finished end panels on the back of the island cabinets) If you or anyone in your family is tall or has long legs, then I recommend 18". I wish we had done so. 15" works for me at 5'10", but it's uncomfortable for my DH (6'5") and my DS (6'7"). I have noticed that even my 6' DD has to straddle the cabinets to sit close to the counter of our peninsula.

So, that means the island should be approximately 41" deep if you have a 1" overhang over your inset cabinets (41.5" if you had overlay framed or frameless cabinets):

1" overhang + 24" deep cabinets + 1" decorative door/finished end panel + 15" overhang = 41"

Linear space...A minimum of 24" of linear space per diner

So, that means 2' per seat. If you have an island at least 8' but less than 10' wide, then you can fit 4 diners. Note that some are now recommending more like 30" per diner - mainly b/c overall we are larger today than we used to be (both height and width!)

.

A couple of things to think about....

Straight line seating is not conducive to conversation and bonding - it's like sitting at a diner counter with strangers or like ducks in a row in a shooting gallery. It's better if you can have a seat or two on one of the short sides or have a substantial curve for the seating overhang.

As we age, counter-height and bar-height seating becomes less and less comfortable and more and more difficult to get in to/out of. If you plan to age in place, I recommend not planning to eat your meals a the island on a regular basis in the years to come. However, you have a DR right there, so I don't think this is an issue. (It's the people who eliminate all 30" high table seating in favor of counter- or pub-height tables or even no table at all that I strongly question.) When we're young, we don't think about how things change as we age - and we should if we plan to age-in-place!

Regarding your tall oven cabinet - our 30" double ovens are in a 31.5" wide cabinet with a corner/angled pantry "around the corner". Your cabinetmaker should be able to do the same:

I just want to add I have a 1.25" overhang on inset and I wish it were only 1/2". It visually just projects out too far for me.

Thanks, Buehl, again for all the info. I will be back on GW when I have a real plan. I may just tell him to try to 48 inches between island and cooktop and 45 between fridge and island. Thanks for that tip.

Amber, thanks of weighing in on the overhang. I think maybe I will ask to do an inch.

During construction (b/f the walls to the pantry were installed):

Thanks. I will ask him about this.

"....I thought 52 for the hood was pretty wide. Cooktop is 36, but I want to have pullouts on either side..."

The hood itself only needs to be 42" wide (36" + 6"). You might also like about 3" of space b/w the cabinets and the hood for "breathing" space (or, as my KD called it, "paint space").

Where are you placing the pullouts? in base cabinets flanking the cooktop? As upper cabinets to the counter?

Base cabinets...OK

Upper cabinets to the counter...Please think about this b/f you commit. Functionally, there shouldn't be anything in the way b/w the cooktop and the counters on either side. Those to-the-counter pullouts look nice, but they can be a major functional issue.

For starters, you won't be able to put anything on the counters next to the cooktop b/c the pullouts need that space to open (or you will have to move anything on the counter to open them).

Second, check Code to be sure you can have them - do you have gas or electric? Electric is probably fine, but if gas, you will have to have a minimum distance b/w those pullouts and the cooktop.

Third, you will have tall items that gobble up the useful counterspace next to the range that should be clear for both emergency landing space and workspace.

If you must have them, I recommend having at least 18" b/w each one and the cooktop on either side - 24" would be better.

What's more important to you - function or form?

re: the 6" left of the DW. Maybe you could have that a panel and make an access with a door on the other side for spices and such. We had a 12" wide x 24" deep island spot and did that.

re: overhang. We have inset and 3/4 overhang. Working great for us and no regrets, albeit 2 weeks old.

re: 6" photo ideas for side door access. (the first one is ladder thing my guy made at our last kitchen redo. The space could also have slender shelving for spices. The next is our current just done island. (please ignore the yet to be fixed floor and temporary counter while waiting for new chopping board counter.

stages 45.

Here are some pictures. Note there is a pinch point at the left end of the island b/w the wall to the FR/TV room and the island - it's only 38.5" wide. This is tight. I recommend not having that seat and either replacing it with a 15"Wx24" deep cabinet or extending the island so you can put a fourth seat on the DR end (it will need 24" of linear space...so the island will need to be adjusted to provide that. (See pictures in next post.)

Overhead view (3D):

Cooktop Wall:

Refrigerator Wall:

Island:

Elevations:

2D View:

.

Alternate island:

Note that this gives you more space on the DW side for dirty dishes without impinging on the Prep Zone. It's also a secondary Prep Zone..

buehl, you are amazing! are you a KD? If not, you should be. Thank you SO much for these drawings. You totally understand the floor plan from what I told you. I am/was worried about the space between opening to the family room as well. My architect drew in an island that angles at the seating area. I don't love that look, but am wondering if we should do it. I love your idea of the seating at the end. Do you change the length of the island there? Anyway, so cool. I am blown away. THANK YOU! I can't wait to show my DH.

Couple of things I forgot to mention. Fridge is cabinet depth. Hood will likely be a mantle hood that will just flow into cabinets like this below. I was thinking of bumping the cooktop out a bit, but probably shouldn't since I am short on space, right?

Classically Modern Kitchen · More Info

That being said, I was going to do a post about hood style. I also like the triangular hoods. Here is one I like a lot.

Kitchen · More Info

The island length was increased by 16" toward the DR - 1" for a decorative door/finished end panel on the side of the 6" cabinet and then 15" for the overhang.

Since no one should sit in the space across from the wall, I put in a shallow 24" wide cabinet - it adds some storage and will keep people from sitting there :-)

The refrigerator I put in is also cabinet-depth - or do you mean it's a built-in? It makes a difference!

Cabinet depth refrigerators are actually closer to 30" to 31" deep when counting the doors, handles, and air space behind them. It's the refrigerators' carcasses/boxes that are cabinet-depth, not the entire refrigerator. Why? Because the doors must stick out past all adjacent items to open fully - that includes walls, cabinets, counters, other appliances, etc.

Built-in refrigerators, on the other hand, are pretty close to counter-depth b/c of how they are designed. I think they only stick out a couple of inches - at most.

Glad to hear the pullouts are in the base cabinets. But, that means some minor changes to the cabinets. Will you have a rangetop or simple cooktop? I'm asking b/c I think the pullouts and hoods you're looking at will look better with a rangetop or range than a simple cooktop. They wouldn't look bad with a cooktop, but they'd look better with a range/rangetop.

About a bump out - unfortunately, you don't have room for a bump out. With the DW on the island and the cooktop & ovens on the same aisle, you need a minimum of 48" so the DW doesn't become a hazard and so there's room to maneuver around not just an open DW or oven, but also additional workers in the Kitchen (e.g., someone cleaning up while someone else preps/cooks a meal). I agree that it looks nice, but your space is too tight already.

-------------

No, I'm not a KD (I'm in IT - Requirements & Testing, primarily). I learned a lot from the folks here when I remodeled my Kitchen in 2007/2008. I stuck around and kept learning to pay it forward. Lately I haven't posted nearly as much as I have in the past b/c life gets in the way - but every once in a while I have a block of time to devote to GW (like today!)

I have been thinking of becoming certified and becoming a KD when I retire someday. It would be something to keep me busy (and it would be a job that I could leave at the office!)

Added legs to the island and added the pullouts flanking the rangetop (changed to a rangetop).

Alternate Island:

Alternate

Heading to bed now. I don't know if I will be around much this week - it depends on work...

Buehl, had to laugh at your comment about leaving the work at the office if you did become a Certified KD. As if, you're on here helping already with KD stuff in addition to your paid job already. You'll just spend 24 hours a day KD'ing if your day job is as a KD!

Unles you were joking and were already anticipating not ever leaving it at the office but planning on playing with layouts all the time, whether in the bath, out walking, sleeping etc

Hi Kelleg69, I'm going to hijack your thread for just one moment, if you will forgive me...I just wanted to say to buehl, first of all, thank you for paying it forward! Your encyclopedic knowledge of things like the difference between a built in and a counter depth refrigerator is awesome! Second, I vote for your "retirement career" to be in KD! You're such a natural. I'm good at "decorating" or "staging" a room--i can pick out flooring, furniture, window treatments, wall art, decor, lighting...but I'd be hopeless as a KD. My spatial reasoning ability is subpar! Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for all you do on gw for us newbies, and even not-so-newbies. :-)

And I very respectfully turn the thread back over to Kelleg69's kitchen layout. :-)

Debbie, no problem, you said what I wanted to say anyway. Buehl, you should def become a KD and I agree with somerset, you won't leave at the office!

To answer your questions. It is a built-in fridge. Will be totally flush. Thermador columns with appliance panels. And, yes a range top. Also Thermador.

Thank you AGAIN for all the time you put into my project. It is so helpful! I chose to go with a cabinet guy who isn't TKO over a KD who is b/c he was WAY less expensive and I figured that I am TKO and that with the help of this board, I wouldn't have to pay for someone else to do the stuff that I could do with the help of GW.

Just wanted to pop in with:

If you have inset cabinets, the overhang can be 3/4". With overlay it's normally 1.5" to allow room for 3/4" depth of the doors and a 3/4" overhang. The overhang always measures from the cabinet front, not the doors.

Having recently had both a 30" sink 9.5" deep and a 24" sink 8" deep, I'd do for the 30" sink that was 8.75" deep for an only sink. I'm not way tall (5'7") but I found 9.5" too deep to use for scrubbing pots, even with a bottom grid. The lack of width in a nominal 24" sink is a somewhat functional bummer for larger items like half-sheet pans, roasters, two burner griddle, the cast iron pan supports from the range as mine are two burners wide and oven racks. Perhaps I'm just a klutz, but there's a lot more water on the counter too.

"Hiding Dishes" for me is a fairy tale as most people are standing or wandering through my kitchen. People seated at the counter will still have a sightline directly into the sink. The depth won't matter.

@buehl - hey girl!