I think I am a cheap frugal person. ;)

I think most people try to be frugal about certain things that are 'hot buttons' for them. But maybe obsessing about "I must ALWAYS have the absolute lowest price on xxxx " is when it crosses the line into being cheap!

But I think grainlady, as always, has hit it on the nose [smile].

Yes, thanks grain lady for articulating what I was trying to understand.

I like grainlady's interpretation.

grainlady, have never read a single post of yours that i thought "cheap". Actually loved your recent post on recycled gift wrap options. To ellen, i agree with your description of cheap vs frugal. I try very hard to be frugal, takes work.

I think most people can tell the difference between a person who is frugal and one who is cheap.

What defined "cheap" to me upfront and personally was the conduct of one of my aunts. She had an aversion, you could also say phobia, to spending money. Using words more popular today than then, she was unquestionably obsessive and compulsive about it. Nothing consumed her time more than the constant pursuit of whittling away at her already meager spending.

Saving money, finding ever cheaper ways to live, complaining about how expensive everything was, were all she ever talked about. She became mostly estranged from her 3 siblings AND her own mother because as the original Debbie Downer, it was a drag to talk to her or have her around. Especially because everyone knew she had the means to live as well or better as others in her family. Because of her compulsions, she denied herself and her family many of the pleasures of life.

The "I do it to myself, not to others" rationalization doesn't work for me, because the same can be said of anorexia. That doesn't make that similar affliction (concerning food rather than concerning money) a healthy attitude.

I was the executor of my aunt's estate, which totaled >$5 million. Her heirs, expecting mostly nothing because of the years of her tirades about how expensive life was, were saddened rather than pleased about the assets they ultimately received. She wasn't accumulating assets for their benefit because she was always stingy with her family members about anything involving money.

I think some cases involve a degree of mental illness, obsessive behavior to an exaggerated degree is not always the action of a normal sane person.

I absolutely keep a close watch on our budget and spending but I won't deny us enjoyable expenditures on occasion.

I think my neighbor gets on the verge of cheap when we all go out to dinner and she tells her husband to stop eating his meal so that she can take it home for their dinner tomorrow night. The poor guy was so enjoying his meal. I felt so bad I wanted to offer him mine. I have never seen her eat her entire meal she sections it off for take home before she starts eating. She will also always take any leftovers I have when we go to lunch. I quite often send over leftovers from a big meal I have made she usually makes at least two nights dinner out of it. I do it so I know her husband has a few good meals. And he is an engineer with a very good paying job, she is retired with a very good retirement plan, and they have multiple rental property they collect from, everything is paid off. I don't understand why she is this way. In other ways she is extremely generous. For Christmas she buys us multiple nice costly gifts. I also give them good gifts, usually I bring them lots of smoked meat from Louisiana. I know they love that. It bewilders me. I love her she is a wonderful friend and neighbor so I don't worry about it. She does freely admit she thinks she is obsessive compulsive about certain things.

Raven, could it be that she is watching the amount they eat because of unneeded calorie intake? I have a friend who always takes half of her meal home because she is extremely health conscience....not because she is cheap.

Raven, it's one thing for your neighbor to save half her dinner, but to instruct her husband to, and while they are out with others, is just disrespectful and sad.

Frugal and cheap aren't in my vocabulary. The closest I get to frugal is looking for free shipping when I buy something online. You can't take it with you. My philosophy is "die broke". Frugal is fine if you're watching your budget, but I think my "frugal" friends are "cheap" when they constantly nickel and dime the lunch bill, but think nothing of running off to ski at Lake Tahoe or golf in Hawaii.

Raven, a similar experience. After going out for pizza with another couple and splitting the check, as we stood up the male of the couple picked up both what remained of the second bottle of wine AND the pizza box. I said, "Shall we split these two things, one for you and one for me" and he said "No, this is dinner for tomorrow night".

I told my wife in the car that I didn't wish to go out to dinner with them again and she agreed. I don't care what kind of loose screws or obliviousness relative to social graces someone has, there's no need to tolerate selfish conduct like that.

Raven, my grandmother used to watch my grandfather's food like a hawk. He had some problems he wouldn't admit to--indulging could mean a trip to the emergency room--so she kept him on a short leash. There may be something similar, or maybe just a reducing diet, going on there, since they don't seem to be cheap towards you, and in the non-food ways.

An alternative way to look at cheap vs. frugal (though I also like Grainlady's), is that frugal is more about being mindful and and cutting waste, whereas cheap means holding onto money at the cost of not spending on what is required. Being frugal is saving bits and scraps for making soup. Being cheap is refusing to put a "new" onion and carrot in it when there aren't enough scraps. Being frugal is cutting up old clothes and linens for making rags. Being cheap is refusing to buy a new towel when the old one becomes ragged. Being frugal is walking to the post office, thereby bettering your health and saving gas and wear on the car. Being cheap is bumming a ride to save the gas and wear on the car.

I'd like to think we are frugal, not cheap. It's a fine line between the two. We buy what we want when we want it but coupon, check flyers for bargains. We started weeks out of college with nothing at all ,yet never borrowed, and just practiced frugality which has carried over thru life. Husband jokes I would still coupon if I won multi millions in the lottery, which I never play.

No neither of them have health issues and she is about as big as a bird, tiny thing. Her husband is very tall but slim, they aren't dieting. She bakes frequently, and she is a great baker, she will from time to time bring over a piece of cake or pie she has made, she knows we are both diabetics so only one piece for us to share. That I understand she is protecting us lol.

We are going to dinner at their house Sunday evening, they are wonderful hosts and provide plenty of food on the table but I worry about eating what would be their dinner the next day. I always bring something to add to the meal.

They joined us at my family Christmas feast in Louisiana. They could not believe the amount of food and the variety. They loved it all. I made sure that they packed up plenty to take with them. She said omg I have enough food for the week. I was happy to see her husband throughly enjoying his feast lol.

I love them they are fantastic neighbors she just has that little strange thing going on.

Hubby works for a family-owned manufacturing business (41-years). The son, who took over the business, shows LOTS of signs of being cheap. He only drives hand-me-down cars his mother gives him when she gets a new one. He uses the company lawnmower and snow plow to mow his lawn and remove snow, rather than buy his own. He begrudgingly has a Christmas party, and what was a lovely semi-formal affair in a hotel meeting room, with a band, fun games and unbelievable prizes, a gift for everyone attending, 2 free alcoholic drinks from the bar for workers and a guest when his father was head of the company, is now catered by the local grocery store - BBQ Beef buffet with baked beans, chips, a can of pop, and the dessert table is furnished by workers. It all takes place during the lunch break in the manufacturing plant.

When the son took over the business he was dating after a short-lived first marriage. He had a simple first date test for the women he dated because he wanted someone who was fiscally like-minded (think Jack Benny here). He would ask his date what was the smallest amount of money they would bend over and pick up in a parking lot? They had to be "penny people" in order to get a second date. He once had a date with a woman who said she would only pick up a $20 bill, and he made some excuse and took her home immediately. Sad, but true....

I think the difference between frugal and cheap is that frugal is spending money wisely and cheap is either not spending money at all, or buying something merely because it is inexpensive, not because it is good.

For instance, when I buy sheets and towels I buy good quality ones, when they are on sale. The good quality ones last for years, so I consider that even if the initial outlay is more than for the cheap ones, it is frugal, because the cheap ones are scratchy and in need of replacement after a year or so.

To me frugal is more about saving money on things where it doesn't count
that much (according to what is important to you) and on some things I
try to be frugal, but in other areas, I prefer to pay more for quality.
If I could afford to I would probably always buy more expensively to get
better quality but I generally have to pick and choose where it's
important to spend extra money and try to save a bit on other things as I suspect many of us do too.

DH and I have a friend who is definitely cheap. Every conversation has to involve his boast about something he got at a really cheap price, on sale or for next to nothing etc, every single purchase has to be a bargain, it's almost pathological and at times it drives me nuts listening to it. Sometimes I want to scream "there is more to life than getting a freaking bargain!" He makes very good money so I don't know where this comes from. Strangely though, if he lists something for sale in the classifieds, he gets really peeved at people who haggle with him on the price! He takes it like an insult but it is no more than what he does so I just don't get his logic.

Ex sister-in-law drove me crazy with her cheap ways, particularly at the Christmas Holiday. Her gift list would consist of luxury items such as gift cards for a massage at her fave spa, a 600 dollar camera (MIL got that for her!), high end lotions from her fave store...and my "big" gift from her last year? A bottle of almond extract and a small cake pan. I don't even bake.

In the past year, she's done a 50K remodel on her kitchen and she landscaped her yard. She always points out that she needs to be frugal, as she has a kid to put through college, but she doesn't know that WE know that MIL has his college paid for already, plus some.

My exe's family is wealthy...and I have to say, I'm not going to miss those Christmas celebrations.

Frugal sounds "smart" to me. A frugal persion intentionally decides to get the most value for their money, perhaps by doing without on certsain things, but being frugal gives them pleasure. Knoweing they got a good deal on an itme brings joy. But "cheap' has a pejorative meaning. You think of things like Scrooge, skinflint, and the like. In the last years of her life, my Mother became obsessive about her money. she stopped exchanging Christmas gifts, even with immediate family, did not even send out Christmas cards because "It's so expensive". i felt sorry for her. I always sent her a Christmas gift, even tho I got none in return. After she died, my family found she had a quarter million in savings stashed away.Iif she'd even spent $10,000 a year on herself , her money would have lasted 25 years.

Oh I agree with frugal being "smart" and cheap just being cheap. I got carried away with my story, lol.

I agree with you jwood. Cheap people are driven by saving money regardless of the cost; frugal people are driven by maximizing total value, including the value of their time.

Here's an example. We are frugal.........we always shop flyer sales and stock up. We got a gift card for Christmas for a grocery store, and I'll use it for bargains. Just because it's free money, I'm not going to blow it. I'll buy things that we need.

OTOH we have a friend who is cheap. He'll pick up something on the side of the road, clean it up, and give it as a gift. e.g. an electric drill but no bits to go with it.

I agree that being frugal and wise with spending, especially for those with limited financial means, is smart. That's how you can get the most for your money. The problem happens when saving money or avoiding spending becomes an end in itself, especially when one's means are adequate to live and spend normally.

And Snidely you have defined me. I'm not cheap nor am I frugal - I just don't spend money except on necessities. And I have no debt and more than enough money in the bank. I just like to see a big number in the bank.

I am cheap and frugal also.

To me the people who worry about "cheap vs frugal" have a problem! LOL You can't define it completely or absolutely. There's different levels and different motivations. I like to get the best value I can, I have limits on what I'll pay for certain things, but there's times I go, "treat yourself right". I know (now it's getting to "knew") a lot of people who went through the drought and depression. Habits were formed then in order to survive. People condemn and criticize them as being "cheap" and to me, that's offensive. It's not easy to change. But I'll also say that I saw a lot of them who would, some would say "splurge" on something. They'd economize for themselves but be quite generous to others. I saw several of those people who died with large estates. Criticizing them for such is again appalling. They liked to see the money grow and stay in the bank or investments. And they liked leaving it to people. Although it saddens me in some ways that they would rather give it to someone else over using it for themselves, it gladdens me that they did with their assets as they wished.

Jasdip, I understand the point you were making but to be honest, I'd MUCH rather get a cleaned up, working electric drill than a smelly candle, some rhinestone studded sweater that probably doesn't fit, a fancy card or some other trinket gift (read "additional clutter") that others think is being "generous"! :D Especially if I needed a drill.

My dad loved getting a bargain. He loved the challenge of reduce, reuse, recycle, re-purpose, repair, repeat. He might have 6 electric drills in the basement that he fixed up, but when someone needed one, they'd come to him and he'd give it to them, making 2 people happy.

My cousin kind of set me straight on the conflict of cheap/frugal. We both would drive our vehicles until they couldn't be repaired at a realistic price. He was an avid couponer and rebater. I was telling him the one day that most of the time, coupons weren't a good deal. I'll use them if I'm going to buy the product anyway or if the product comes out cheaper and it's the quality I want, but I don't buy the el-cheapo TV dinners, just because there's a coupon. He said (and I knew) that he could afford to buy a Mercedes if he wanted, he just chose not to. I understand. Vehicles are transportation to us, not status symbols. He and his gf went on an occasional cruise, and didn't skimp on it. They'd take vacations and while traveling he'd stay in better hotels because they didn't cost much more if you shopped a bit, negotiated a bit and got in there at the right time. Then they'd enjoy the hotel's amenities and get a relaxed start the next day. I'm digressing, but back to the couponing/rebating. What he said was he did it a bit compulsively, but to him it was a HOBBY. It was a challenge to come out paying less. And he realized that in the end you really don't save that much but like he said, he didn't like to golf, play cards, jog or other hobbies, this is one he liked. He retired at age 55, enjoyed 15 years of retirement before cancer caught him and he was happy to leave probably about $400k in his estate to a few people he liked.

There's arguments about cheap vs frugal but to me there often is a phrase that's missed. "Common sense." Making a trip to the store JUST to buy a quart of milk is kind of silly. Combine your trips makes much more sense.. But then there's times you really need (or do you?) or really WANT that quart of milk. Then be frivolous, a spendthrift or whatever phrase and treat yourself right. Although some who planned ahead might have some powdered or canned milk in the pantry!

It just struck me that there's different phrases to occasionally cover "being 'cheap'". "Re-gifting" is one.

Cheap: Had dinner out at a nice restaurant with another couple. She wanted bleu cheese dressing on her salad. It was 50 cents extra. He made her pay him that 50 cents!!!! No kidding about it. He was dead serious. Needless to say, that marriage didn't last long.

LOL Cynic. The drill wouldn't have been bad, really, if the person wanted/needed/used one. Having no bits to go with it and never ever needing a drill, it's just taking up space! (clutter ;-)

What about tipping? We enjoy using coupons for restaurants, buy one, get the other meal free. Having said that, we tip on the basis that we paid for 2 meals. She did the work for both of us, and deserves the full tip. Every time we do that, we get a very happy smile, and thank you.

Thank you! That is appropriate to do jasdip! Why don't people know that? And to-go orders too. Why don't people tip for those at all? My ex worked in the restaurant industry for 15+ years. I've seen it all. I cannot, for the life of me understand either one. Especially when the bartender brings out the to-go order and they take out all the containers to make sure it's all there, get the condiments, plasticware, napkins... and still nothing. Nada. Not one thin dime after all they effort they went to. I find that ultra-cheap. I finally decided it was those who didn't want to pay for table service. They still got service, just didn't pay for it. Ugh.

Hubby's brother-in-law was shocked to learn you should tip the pizza delivery person - because he never tipped them! BIL heard our teenage son (who was delivering for Pizza Hut at the time) talking about all the NADA people. Especially those who call for delivery during the worst possible weather when it's not fit for anyone out on the streets! Our son admonished his uncle by saying, "If you wouldn't risk your life to go get a pizza yourself during crappy weather, then be sure to double the tip for someone who does!!!" Explaining how he often had to shovel out his delivery car to make a delivery, get stuck in a drive and have to shovel it out, then try to get back to make another delivery. Or all the streets that flood in town and he has to figure out how to get to the home and do it in a certain amount of time.

He also delivered for a pharmacy, and the same people who didn't tip him when he delivered pizza were also the same people he delivered Rx to - how ironic....

How about inviting somebody to lunch because they have a "Buy one get one free" coupon, and instead of just paying or splitting that smaller bill, insist THEIR lunch was the free one lololol? I believe that would be CHEAP.

If you don't boss your money ... there's a strong possibility that it'll boss you.

For a number of years of my life, I lived in a student dorm, or shared and/or employer-provided housing ... but I knew that on the day that I became fired ... or retired ... I'd be required to provide my own, so needed to make preparations beforehand, and, becoming employed at age 24, the earlier that I started the better.

So I made and implemented some plans ... and now, being frugal, am able to live comfortably and in a way that pleases me within my pension income, so the investments are pretty well "play money" ... until they're needed to finance my end-of-life needs ... whatever they may turn out to be.

Seventeen years or so into retirement ... how many years do I have ahead, in which I must finance my life? Even with much of my healthcare needs covered - at a pretty well unavoidable cost to me on my income tax bill of about $600.00/year ... and graduated to income : under about 20k taxable income it's nil. Recent anti-testosterone shot, 4 required per year, cost $1,250.00, under $100. out of my pocket.

As I don't like hitch-hiking 10 - 16 miles through the snow for groceries and other needs in February, so figure that I can continue in my comfortable farm home at 1/2 - 2/3 cost of an apartment in the city as long as I can continue to merit a licence to drive ... how long may that continue?

Ah, but ... they have these self-driving cars available now ... but can you visualize independent ole joyful sitting in the back seat, watching robotized driving of the car ... without chewing his fingernails down to blood-letting?

And my tall landlord bent down to look me straight in the eye, and asked whether I had any idea of the astronomical costs that would be involved ... and I told him that I'd have to manage to continue driving while staying here for at least several more years, as I'd have to wait for them to be available used, as I haven't bought a new car in forty years. To me, a farm-raised kid that began that work at age 10 when the hired men went to war, a car is transportation, not a status symbol. Farm-raised kids learn early not to spend all the income as you go: bad years come when there ain't none - but the costs go on.

Plus ... how long will I be able to continue in an apartment in the city, before requiring to live in a residential home ... or, much more expensively, in a partial-care ... or, heaven forbid, a *nursing* home?

And, I hope, to provide some for my kids (no grands) when I don't need it any more and some charities.

And if I choose to be generous to myself or others, it's my asset, I can use it as I please.

My servant, if you will.

Partial proviso: on loan from God (whom son figures to be a figment of man's imagination).

ole joyfuelled

The best example I have heard:

Frugal is saving your tea bag to use to make a second cup of tea later Cheap is using your old tea bag to make your guest's tea.

Oh tackykat...the best example I have ever heard also! I believe myself to be frugal...but don't enjoy buying something that I really do not need. I lost my husband at the age of 33 with 3 small children...and I was employed as a school secretary in a small rural district, so pay was not much. I had to be very frugal but we always had a nice home/furnishings....which was paid for...had all the food and clothing we needed, a dependable car to drive, and all of my bills and donations/contributions were always paid. I have not been in debt since I was in my 30s and never intend to be.

My parents lived during the dirty 30s and depression so "wasting" was something that never was done. They butchered their own meat and my mom said that they used every part of that pig, except the "onek". I remember the days of rationing and having to use stamps to buy food, making dresses from feed sacks, etc.. I do not think this society these days could survive if we had to return to "hard times"... But with the way times are getting, who knows? So I think many people's ideas toward money comes from our parents.

I never got a cent from my parents..everything went to a nursing home..but I do want to be able to take care of myself in my old age and never want my kids to contribute to my care, ans do hope to leave some money to my children for their retirement/future, because I doubt by the time they retire, they probably will not know the "luxury" of Social Security to help. But if I need something, I get it and if that is being cheap, so be it!

Frugal means economy in the expenditure of resources, not necessarily cheap. In the kitchen, it means reducing scrap and using up as much of the product as possible. However, in general street usage, it has morphed toward cheap. In home finances, it could apply to cutting out frivolous expenditures and purchase only what is needed rather than what is wanted. It also applies to reducing the buying of junk that does not work or satisfy.

I tend to buy things that have value (to me) or remain useful for a reasonable period of time. For example, If I buy a camera, a year later, it should yet produce the same results as before. I do not like buying "throw away" items except for consumables.

Something in another thread put me in mind of some of the saddest people I've seen. They were frugal for the sake of the environment, which is something most of us can get behind in principle. I certainly try to do my part but occasionally, when using a disposable (non-washable) zip bag would work better than a container that has to go in the dishwasher, I chide myself not to be cheap. There is no such mitigation for these people. One were some students who had a house together. They seemed to revel in every penny saved, so didn't have enough light to read by in the lamps or sufficient heat in the house not to shiver (I'm all for putting on a sweater, but want heat when it's cold enough to make my nose run). The other was a family who had a lot of publicity in the press for their stingy, zero footprint ways. They wrapped it all up in an environmentalist bow, but it looked pathological to me. The children were only allowed a single "new" shirt a year, and that was from a thrift store (i.e., used). The children didn't look happy.

I compare this to countless stories that people have for growing up very poor, but having loving homes where they never felt the lack for anything. The clothes might have been hand-me-down or from a thrift store or jumble sale, but they were good quality, good condition, and with a little sewing fitted them well. The food wasn't fancy, but it was wholesome, tasty and plentiful, even if it was a lot of different ways of making beans and rice, for the most part.

I see a lot more grace in having little and making what one has go round (frugal), than in having much and refusing to use sufficient to make life nice (cheap).