Someone knows (or have some idea about) the name of this Old Rose?

8 years ago

This rose is an antique variety of damask rose. It's grows in brazilian ground probably since the colonization with the first priests. Many roses became from France in the 19h century too. It's a medium to large bush, moderate Pink, has a strong fragance of damask roses, and is easily propagate by cuttings. Almost blooms single, medium and full. I never saw hips in this Rose (tiploid?), and It has three to Five lealefts in the leaves. If you have some idea about the Rose's name, please help me. Sincerely,

Rodrigo.

It's a young cut.. Has just six mon old.

Featured Answer

jerijen

8 years ago

It's beautiful, fragrant, disease-free, and a generous bloomer!!! I don't CARE what it real class is.
Give it a "study name" -- perhaps based on what you know of its history -- and SHARE IT WITH OTHERS!

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Comments (43)

AquaEyes 7a NJ
8 years ago
I'd guess it's 'Ispahan', but I'm not 100% about that. See link below.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.1916.0

:-)

~Christopher
Rodrigo Mendes thanked AquaEyes 7a NJ
Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
8 years ago
I don't think it is Ispahan. See my RVR baby below.
Sheila's garden. · More Info
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Rodrigo Mendes
Original Author
8 years ago
Thank you for your answer and effort Christopher, but I don't think It is 'Ispahan' too. The bloom form is different.
AquaEyes 7a NJ
8 years ago
Well, if it's not 'Ispahan' then I highly doubt it's a Damask. I picked that one because your plant doesn't display the typical Damask thorniness and leaves, and 'Ispahan' is believed to have some China ancestry based on its smoother stems. Basically, 'Ispahan' is less Damask-like than the other Damasks, and your plant doesn't look very Damask-like. Do you have any pictures of the mature plant?

:-)

~Christopher
Rodrigo Mendes
Original Author
8 years ago
No, I don't have a mature plant near to me. I bought this cut from a big Bush, almost two x two meters tall, in a farm very far from here. Blooms almost all the seasons because that land have no winter. I believed that Rose is a damask because It has a very very damask perfume. But It has thorns. Do you sugest another Rose kind for this plant? It has never more then five lealefts too. Please forgive my terrible english.

Rodrigo
Vicissitudezz
8 years ago
Perhaps it is just the fragrance that is Damask? Which roses might not be a Damask Rose in a strict sense, but still have the damask fragrance? A Bourbon, perhaps?
Vicissitudezz
8 years ago
Whatever your rose is named, it's a beauty, and I'm glad you got an obviously healthy plant from your cutting.

I did wonder about what roses besides Damask have that fragrance, and I'm not sure that your rose is a Bourbon, but have a look at this photo of 'Rose Edouard', the earliest Bourbon that was taken in Bahia:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.252238

Does it look similar to you?

Also, it would be helpful if you could post a few photos with close looks of the leaves, buds and thorns. That can be very helpful for an ID, even if all you get is a good idea of the class your rose belongs to. An ID of the actual variety may not be possible from photos of an immature plant.

Good luck,

Virginia
Rodrigo Mendes thanked Vicissitudezz
nikthegreek
8 years ago
Of course this is not (and cannot be, since it is a continous bloomer) a Damask. This rose looks and sounds like it has quite a bit of Chinese DNA in it.
Melissa Northern Italy zone 8
8 years ago
A lot of roses besides the Damasks have a strong Damask fragrance, including quite a few Hybrid Teas. My thoughts in this case go in the direction of a Hybrid Perpetual. They're an old class and were genetic soups from the start. The smooth foliage and rebloom suggest a good dose of China ancestry, as others have said.

Your English sounds fine to me. But I understand your discomfort. I just got off the phone after a conversation about a plant order, conducted on my side in extremely rusty German.
Rodrigo Mendes thanked Melissa Northern Italy zone 8
Rodrigo Mendes
Original Author
8 years ago
Thank you Virginia, for your time and attention. I will follow your advice. But I agree... It looks very similar with the 'rose edouard'. It's possible. :-)
Rodrigo Mendes
Original Author
8 years ago
Melissa, I will take a look in the hybrid perpetual group. I agree with you and Nik, It's look like a China ancestry. I'm learning a lot here!
monarda_gw
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
The long stems of the flowers belie a China ancestry. European old roses, in contrast, tend to have flowers nestled among the leaves on very short stems (the so-called "high-shouldered" look). vmr423 above suggests the identity of this pink mystery rose as the early Bourbon 'Rose Edouard' (which I had previously never heard of). Looking it up, HMF describes the 'Rose Edouard' as having a "strong fragrance" (although one contributor remarks that his is not). In the discussion a poster questions the usual story that the original cross on the Isle de Bourbon was a damask but rather suggests a gallica or centifolia (grown for perfume by the French). This seems to have been the opinion of:

Ernest H. Wilson, Arnold Arboretum [in THE STORY OF THE MODERN ROSE]
"About 1819, from the Isle of Bourbon, the Rose Edward reached France, and crossed with the French Rose (R. gallica) gave rise to the Hybrid Bourbon Roses. This Rose Edward is of much interest; long ago it was cultivated in Calcutta and it is obviously a Hybrid Chinese. The specimen I have seen strongly suggests R. chinensis x R. centifolia as its parentage."

Just from reading the references and comment pages on Helpmefind I learned that Rose Edouard was grown for making rosewater perfume in Calcutta and also widely used at one time as a root-stock. It turns up in South Africa and New Zealand, as well as Northern Europe and therefore it is not unlikely that specimens ended up in Brazil.

Thanks for posting this interesting thread.
Rodrigo Mendes thanked monarda_gw
Vicissitudezz
8 years ago
Rodrigo, do you mind saying in what region/state the original plant grows? Do you have an idea of how old the plant is? If you can date it back to Brazil's colonial past, that does rule out a lot of roses.

I agree with Jeri that you have a great rose regardless of the name or class, but if you can find out something about its history, there's something to be learned about your individual plant, but also something about the history of roses in Brazil, a country not famous for its roses.

I agree with Melissa that the Hybrid Perpetual class might be possible. Generally, HP's often featured large, full blooms, sometimes richly colored and often very fragrant. The 'perpetual' part of the name is an exaggeration; I haven't heard of many that bloomed continuously and quite a few were really once-bloomers. In temperate climate gardens, they usually had a big show in the spring, and another show in the autumn, which might be even more impressive than the spring display.

My understanding is that HP's don't usually rebloom well in hot climates, but even if that's true there are always exceptions. I also don't know what your climate is like, but you described the original rose as living in a land without winter.

'Rose Edouard' was just a hunch, but it was often used as a rootstock in warm-climate gardens, and often grown for its own sake. There is some confusion about names and descriptions of the earliest Bourbons, and at HMF there are several roses grouped together as 'Rose Edouard'.

Tchau,

Virginia
Rodrigo Mendes thanked Vicissitudezz
User
8 years ago
..back in July, I posted a photo I had taken of Rose Edouard, so here it is again, in case it helps at all... it's a pity it wasn't quite in bloom though at the time.. but the foliage is clear to see...
Rodrigo Mendes
Original Author
8 years ago
Thank you for your comments Jeri, Monarda, Virginia and Marlorena. And yes Virginia, my country isn't famous by our roses. It's cultural, I developed rose interest by my own, alone, and I'm new in this area. It's possible to see a lot of roses in the backyards, but no one knows their names. No one cares about keep the names. Almost sellers who bring few new roses from Germany don't care about identification. The brazilian costumers don't care too. It's piss me off. See some pictures bellow
Theese roses (and exist many others) grows in the backyards. I supose they are old, but I'm not sure. People propagate all by cuttings easily. I don't know just a single name. Maybe I will get crazy. Oh! Virginia, I noted your "tchau" and was very cute. Obrigado :-)

Rodrigo.
Rodrigo Mendes
Original Author
8 years ago
Some roses selled without name

It's from my mother in law backyard.

I just refuse to buy a rose without name. But recently I discovered four serious sellers and I will start my collection in January.

About the rose that start this conversation, It's grows in Pernambuco, my birth State. I don't know how old is.

Now I live in Paraná State, It's far from Pernambuco and here We have autuums and winters. I will observe.

I learned a lot here about the difference between Chinas and Damasks. I'm very glad. Thanks.

:-)

Rodrigo.
nikthegreek
8 years ago
I can sympathise with you Rodrigo. I feel similar 'loneliness' where I live since the attitudes are the same. There are just red, white, pink, yellow and orange roses, small or climbing, everything single is wild and if something has many petals and blooms only in May then it's only good for rosewater or jam... Forums like this help a lot!
Vicissitudezz
8 years ago
Rodrigo, those are good photos of some very nice roses. I can understand that if you don't know the name of a rose then you could end up buying something that really won't do well in your area for long. But if you find a rose that you like, and you think it will grow well for you, maybe you should go ahead and get it, and try to find the name later.

You may have heard the quotation from Shakespeare: "What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet." Quite a few old roses sold in the U.S., Europe, Australia and elsewhere are not correctly named. Labels get lost, nurseries and gardens become battlegrounds or suburbs, and many very good roses go extinct or survive without their original names.

It's nice to know rose names if you can, but if you like a rose, you can give it your own name- the plant won't care!

It's good that you found some serious sellers, but don't be surprised if you buy a rose, and then decide it doesn't have the correct name... I think that happens to most rose buyers at some point.

You may already know this, but a very useful resource of rose information is a web site called Help Me Find: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/plants.php

And you've already found another good source of information right here. As you acquire more roses and want advice about them, you can ask questions and there are a lot of knowledgeable people here to help you out.

Good luck,

Virginia
monarda_gw
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
Amen, Virginia, and by the way, did you notice that the first three photos in Helpmefind were from Brazil (Xique-Xique, Bahia, Northern Brazil, to be exact)?
Vicissitudezz
8 years ago
monarda, I did notice that! I might have mentioned the possibility of 'Rose Edouard' anyway, but seeing the photos of it actually blooming in Brazil gave me a bit more confidence in my guess.

Rodrigo's plant is still very young, which makes a good ID difficult, but I think it helps to have something for comparison. I've learned a lot about roses just from comparing and contrasting my foundlings with every rose photo online (it seems!).

Thanks,

Virginia
Rodrigo Mendes
Original Author
8 years ago
I had a insight. People popularly call the rose "Palmeirão" or "Palmeron". Looking for the word and using "Help me find", I found the "Palmyre" rose. But I'm not sure about the description. They have no pictures. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.17760. Any way, I just love the scent, the colour, the life growing near to me. The name isn't so important. Thank you girls. Have a nice days.

Rodrigo.
jill_perry_gw
8 years ago
I agree that it looks like a Bourbon. This is based on the shape of the leaves. Rose Edouard or something similar is quite likely. The name "Rose Edouard" is fairly generic- applied probably to several old pink bourbons in India and Europe as well as the Americas. Good luck finding out what the other roses in the later photos are.
monarda_gw
8 years ago
I think Rodrigo may have found the name of the rose -- it seems that in the early 19th c. a nurseryman named James Lee of Hammersmith, England, put on the market a rose called 'Lee's Crimson Perpetual' and also a blush variety called "Lee's Blush Perpetual' or 'Palmyre' (scroll down). https://books.google.com/books?id=0W8hAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA326&lpg=PA326&dq=Lee%27s+rose+or+Palmyre&source=bl&ots=ZhpiODGcPm&sig=jIPptCzkAlGSpFfS5NjB_2XLBlA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjs3tHuiu7JAhWFdD4KHaGuBYEQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=Palmyre&f=false

Just from google I see that there was also a Lee's Blush Perfection, which may be the same rose (?). The Lees had a nursery in the town of Stanwell and were also responsible for Stanwell Perpetual, which some consider one of the most beautiful roses in existence. The Lee firm imported many roses from France and other parts of the world, so it could have been a bourbon (just speculating).
monarda_gw
8 years ago
The Literary Gazette: A Weekly Journal of Literature, Science, and the Fine Arts (on Google) under "Arts and Science Gardening Report for February and Kalendar for March" [1827], lists "Rose Lee" or "Palmyre" as "one of those roses no garden ought to be without" and classes it among the "third" or larger sized roses.
Vicissitudezz
8 years ago
Here is the HMF record for 'Palmyre':

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.17760.3&tab=1

I know so little about Damask Perpetuals (AKA Portlands) that I really have no idea if this is a rose that could flourish in a land with no winter, as the parent of Rodrigo's plant does.

If they need winter chill to bloom, this is probably not it.

Virginia
monarda_gw
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
I see that my reference above is also quoted in Helpmefind under "References". Also, Brent Dickerson says Palmyre was bred by [Vibert] in 1817. I guess the brackets mean it is not completely certain, but this provenance is given elsewhere, as well, including Helpmefind. Also Dickerson quotes Boitard, Manuel complet de l'amateur des roses, 1836, who describes Palmyre as having: "Canes long and vertical; flower medium sized, double, regular; pale pink becoming flesh." This matches Rodrigo's picture. There is also a picture of Palmyre on page 17 of Phillips and Rix The Quest for the Rose, with the remark, "very good scent", (which doesn't say where or when the photo was taken). I have this book, and to my eyes the Phillips and Rix photo looks quite a bit darker than "pale" or even "flesh" pink (so called), but it is hard to tell from photographs. Also the pictured bush doesn't appear to have long, vertical canes. It'd like to think that Rodrigo's is the real deal and that it is a Bourbon not a Portland, since it is not fazed by heat, and that it is "Lee's blush perpetual", but I am a romantic.
Vicissitudezz
8 years ago
monarda, I think you have to be at least a little romantic to be a gardener!

If the Brazilian rose is a Portland, that would explain the Damask scent; I just have no idea what kind of climate Portlands like.
jill_perry_gw
8 years ago
A Portlnd would not have the foliage of this plant. And the stems would not be so smooth. There is clearly China in the background of this plant, but something else as well, which is why I think it's bourbon.
Rosefolly
8 years ago
There is a photo of 'Palmyre' in Trevor Griffiths's book A Celebration of Old Roses on page 60.
Vicissitudezz
8 years ago
P.S. monarda, I added that 'Palmyre' reference to HMF after reading it here; thanks for locating it.
Vicissitudezz
8 years ago
Rosefolly, does the photo look similar to Rodrigo's rose?

Thanks,

Virginia
Rosefolly
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
I really cannot tell. Rodrigo's picture is the whole plant and shows leaves and buds. Trevor Griffiths's photo is the fully opened bloom head on. The color could be right, but there are a lot of "medium-bright pink" roses, which is how TG describes it, and how it looks in the picture. TG's rose looks a lot like Phillips and Rix's rose.
Rodrigo Mendes thanked Rosefolly
ozmelodye
8 years ago
Virginia, I grow a couple of Portlands here and they bloom in late Spring /early summer then shut down until Autumn when they rebloom but not prolifically, so lack of winter chill does not seem to affect them. I must admit, I'm considering pot culture in part shade because our past several summers have seen a lot more above 40C days and Pergolese is looking unhappy and Marie de St Jean is just a baby. Melodye
Vicissitudezz
8 years ago
Melodye, unless Rodrigo's plant is atypical in its bloom pattern and degree of thorniness (certainly possible!), I'd guess it isn't a Portland.

He described the parent plant (of his cutting) as blooming most of the season in northern Brazil, within 10 degrees of the equator. Not the pattern of spring then fall bloom, with nothing much in summer that I associate with any of the 'perpetuals'.

Yes, it sounds like your Portlands might like a bit of shade, but I'll bet they're lovely when they bloom. Photos???

Thanks,

Virginia
User
8 years ago
Its definitely not a Portland/Damask type, its something heavily influenced by China genes, and may, as Jill suggests, be a Bourbon from the China section of the group.
nikthegreek
8 years ago
Couldn't it be some sort of (early) HT? Unless we are sure it is older than that I don't think this possibility should be excluded judging from how it looks.
Vicissitudezz
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
Nik, I do think it's too soon to tell much about such an immature plant; especially without any close-up photos of leaves, buds, thorns, etc.

I did suggest 'Rose Edouard', but I meant that to be a starting place for exploration, certainly not as a definitive ID.

I wondered if the rose 'Palmyre' might be called that because at one point that was a scion that didn't survive. 'Rose Edouard' and 'Céline' are two popular Bourbon rootstocks that often survived the roses grafted onto them, and early descriptions of 'RE' and 'Céline' both seem like good candidates. The HMF photos for both roses seem to me to not match up too well with the early references, but others may disagree.

'Céline', incidentally, was described early on as both a Hybrid Bourbon and a Hybrid China. I believe that William Paul started out calling her a Bourbon or Hybrid Bourbon, but then began calling her a Hybrid Chinese.

Virginia
Rodrigo Mendes
Original Author
7 years ago
Hi guys,

I'm updating with photos after It's first prunning. Now I'm thinking If It is La France.
monarda_gw
7 years ago
That is beautiful.
Lisa Adams
7 years ago
Wow!
jerijen
7 years ago
What ever it is, it's lovely.

The first thought, of course, is Autumn Damask (R. damascena bifera) but the leaves don't look right to me. For Autumn Damask, they should look like this:
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.244239
AquaEyes 7a NJ
7 years ago
I'm wondering if the first rose in this thread might be Mrs. John Laing.....

:-)

~Christopher