There are some language communities where "lady" is equivalent of "broad", "dame" or any other word for a woman who isn't called "hottie", "shorty", "chickiemama" or "sweetstuff'. E.g., Some lady walked by and kicked that can into his window. Or, Hey, Lady! Where are you going with that XBox?

The original meaning of the word "lady" was exactly a woman of wealth and privilege.

Context is everything. Tone of voice carries more meaning than the actual words.

Also consider the source: You don't even remember where you read it. My ten year old AP stylebook says not to use lady instead of woman (in journalism) but can be used for manners. I like the AP book because it's sort of the most common of common denominators for print. It may well be that the editor of the particular book you saw this in has a bug up about the word.

Ha, and those words you cite for women fell out of use when Edward G Robinson and James Cagney stopped making gangster movies. Mothers stopped telling daughters to "act like a lady" when wearing white gloves to go shopping downtown fell out of fashion too.

It's true, context and intended meaning tell the story. A pejorative comment is never too hard to spot. Language use changes, what's acceptable today may not be tomorrow.

The one I have had a problem with is when I am speaking with a female and I use the work "Ma'am". Many young ladies really detest that term.

Our university women's basketball team has been referred to by their coach as ladies. They call themselves girls. The program is for women. Go figure! As long as you don't call them ma'am!

Jim, I call so many people 'Ma'am" and "sir" all the time. I was at the dealership recently and the service advisor called the woman ahead of me, 'ma'am. she tore a strip off him! He didn't know what to call me, the poor guy. I feel it's a form of respect, and I'll keep on doing it.

It IS a term of respect...it's a good thing that I wasn't there at the time, because that woman would have been the recipient of a real tongue lashing from me. Anywhere that I've ever lived, well mannered males of all ages address adult female strangers as ma'am unless she she expects to be called Dr.

I think some people/groups are thinking too hard and wasting energy. Political correctness has diverted attention from what is really important. I wish these political correctness people would stop speaking for me about politically correct titles for me. I can decide for myself the intent of the title spoken. A word is just a word. Words have denotation/definitions. Words take on meaning when they are spoken. It is the connotation- tone and context that creates the true meaning. Pillog is correct.

Store clerks are so afraid of offending, they say to me "Did you find everything you needed, Miss?" Miss? I am over fifty years old and there is plenty of naturally gray strands to show it. That is not a compliment. But I just mentally roll my eyes and carry on with my day, realizing they are between a rock and someone won't like whatever term they use place.

Well, again, it depends on the language community. The "miss" thing seemed to me to come up as the numbers of Latin American immigrants swelled in California. The newbies would say "missus", a direct translation of senora, though ma'am would be the American translation in this context. Those who've been here longer, and have heard, but not necessarily understood, Ms., and who had enough experience to learn that missus wasn't right, sort of settled on miss. Add to that the Southern usage of calling an elder with "Miz" or "Miss" before her first name. It's stuck so well now it barely registers with me anymore.

I too don't understand what's wrong with "ma'am". There used to be a thing where very young women would rue the point at which they were no longer addressed as "miss" and started being called "ma'am" just because it made them confront their past first blush status. In general, I don't like being called "madam" (long for ma'am) because it's used so little that it sounds more like something facetious than respectful.

What gets me is the over-use of "lady" and "gentleman" in press conferences. The man who shot up the liquor store and took a little girl hostage is not a gentleman! It's not as bad with lady, but still...

I would not want to be a young woman and have to deal with man calling me "shorty". That one is even worse than "little darling" which always made me want to break into a chorus of Little Darlin' is Not my Name.

I'm waiting for "politically incorrect" to become "politically incorrect". I think it's all a load of BS. We don't have to use tiny little vanilla words to try to get a point across or avoid a sensitive toe. Not everyone is going to be happy all the time. Say what's on your mind; try to not be hurtful...but listeners should not be so sensitive.

I don't care if I'm called "lady," "ma'am," "gal," "girl," "sister," "sweetie," "miss," "miz," "misses"...the list goes on and on. "Honey," is iffy...depends on who is saying it, but I'm just too much of a "sweetie" to get riled up over "honey." I am short; and have often been called "Shorty." I just respond, or answer the question, and go on to the next conversation. For years I was called "sarge," not the most feminine term, but it was always said either respectfully or affectionately, so it was all good.

Oh Snidely...just last week my Mom reminded me to "act like a lady." It's a good thing.

caroline- you remind me of my mom. She was a Sunday school teacher for years and she always said she didn't care if the kids called her ms. Smith, ms. Jane, missus, ma'am or even hey you as long as they said it in a respectful tone.

Growing up, I was taught to address ANYONE I didn't know as sir, ma'am or miss and when I started working customer service jobs as a teenager, I had plenty of people get offended and tell me, "I'm not old enough to be a sir, miss, ma'am" etc

My response was usually to shrug and say, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to offend you, I was trying to be polite.

I've got 2 kids in school now and my youngest corrected me the other day when I called her teacher Mrs. Jones. "Mommy, that's Ms. Jones, NOT Mrs. Jones."

I had to have a brief etymology lesson with my kids and explain that, technically, she is a Mrs. since she is married. It seems even schools have done away with "proper" terms as ALL teachers are called Ms. I remember being corrected in elementary school when I called a married woman Ms.... now I guess it is inappropriate to call a married woman Mrs.

Ms. is an invention of the women's movement. Both "Miss" and "Mrs." are derived from "Mistress", which, as a title, you might hear in a Thanksgiving play as an alternative to Goody (short for Goodwife), is a feminine form of "Mister". The whole point of Ms. is that your title shouldn't have anything to do with your marital status. It did in the olden days because there was a clearly defined difference in social status, not just from being attached to your man, but also because it meant you were running a household. To a lesser extent, a similar distinction was made for boys and young men living under their fathers' charge, rather than being heads of household themselves.

With the influx of Spanish speakers I referred to, Ms. started disappearing from Southern California. It's not a concept that the newcomers could wrap their heads around, nor, to a certain extent, their tongues. Mrs. has made a big comeback here, but in the Spanish way, where any woman one would call "ma'am", that is, of sufficient years, is addressed as Mrs., regardless of her marital status. So someone fluent in English will say, "Yes, ma'am, Mrs. Smith, we have your order ready," when there's no ring and even sure knowledge that Ms. Smith is single.

As to what's proper, with someone known, like a teacher, it's what she says she wishes to be called.

When you look at it, it's not an issue of political correctness. It's another example of the community of "people" who live to be offended and search ways to manufacture outrage. It's silliness. People like that aren't happy unless they're complaining about being "offended" and if people would just ignore them, they won't get the response they want, and deservedly so.

Jasdip, I know what that person SHOULD be called! And it ain't no "lady"! :)

I realize that again I'm in a minority, but I was raised to realize that names can't hurt me. Selfish people looking for ego primping and ruckus-raising won't acknowledge that since they wouldn't have reason to complain and complaining is their sole hobby.

I completely agree with Pillog - "What gets me is the over-use of "lady" and "gentleman" in press conferences. The man who shot up the liquor store and took a little girl hostage is not a gentleman!…" It makes my blood boil, and the latest being the husband shooter in San Bernardino being referred to as "the gentleman". Good Lord, what is with these people???

"Don't feel obligated to hold the door for me because I'm a lady.". I'm not, I'm holding the door for you because I'm a gentleman."

I sort of feel like Cynic, but not completely. Mostly, it doesn't bother me what names people use, and that realization has come with age. The vast majority of people who address me with all sorts of various names have done so respectfully, and the few that have not, I'm not going to feed them by being outraged, they are not worth my time.

There are some supposedly demeaning names which have been discussed here on KT before 'honey' and the use of 'young lady' when talking to an old lady. Those who use the names are either doing so innocently because they think somehow it is cute, which is bearable, because their intentions are pure, or for some of the names, those who mean to demean, which actually helps identify them as someone to ignore.

There are a couple of names that bother me, however, even though I realize, like Cynic, that names can't physically hurt. The term C*** for women, and N***** for black people has always grated on me. But those names are pretty far up the scale of intentional demeaning, the word 'lady' doesn't even deserve honorable (or dishonorable) mention in that category.

I don't mind lady. I mind "young lady". I guess it's akin to Miss/Missy. I'm not young enough to call me young lady. The other day, we were eating out someplace and the server kept calling us pretty ladies... and that bothered me since they said it to everyone all the time. Maybe they really think everyone is a pretty lady, but it felt more condescending for some reason? I dunno. Tone and context!

I LOVE your statement, Brushworks!!

I hold the door open for everyone, man or woman. If I'm entering first, I'll hold or push the door open behind me so that it doesn't slam into their face. Or hold it open so that the person older than me, can enter first.

I always, always thank the person that holds it for me, and I get a "you're welcome, or quite welcome" in return. I've seen many women enter without so much as a thank your or a look to the man that held the door open for them.

Pretty soon it won't be an issue. All opinions or words will be considered either politically incorrect or offensive and society will just be forced to remain mute in order to avoid offending anyone.

Lukki - perfect prediction!

Lukki, that's just the way I feel. We're darn close to that now.

This reminds me of the old saying "Sticks and stones will hurt my bones, but names will never hurt me." As long as a person is respectful, I don't care what they call me.

I think "politically incorrect/correct" is a loaded phrase. I try to show respect for all human beings and don't need to show my ignorance by saying something "politically incorrect". I defer to the "minority" group's opinion--if they don't want to be called a certain name or portrayed in a stereotypical way, then I don't do it. I have no idea what it's like to walk in their shoes everyday, so I'll take their word for it if they find a term, a joke, or an opinion offensive.

I am a 60 year old woman. I don't really like being called lady and would prefer to be called by my first name, but I suppose I'd need to wear a name tag when out in public. At the grocery store a younger man calls me Miss several times throughout the transaction. He doesn't need to go into the ridiculous so as not to offend me because of my age. I know how old I am and Ma'am is fine.

My DM was raised to be generous of spirit and respectful to everyone. She sought to raise me the same way. I recognized her 'lady' the first time I read Browning's "My Last Dutchess".

Manners are manifestations of being 'lady like'. They go deeper than learning how to use the fish knife, which can be 'aped'. "Doing the right thing" is never wrong, and manners exist to help smooth human interactions.

It isn't respectful to ignore a person or a kindness. (Do you want a door slammed in your face or held for you? Are you the person too engrossed in cell-phone to notice you are blocking traffic or the person who smiles a greeting to a stranger while moving aside? ) We 'judge' people by their manners because that's what we observe. They are our 'clues' to a stranger.

It's demeaning to his diners for a waiter attempt to ingratiate himself by addressing 'pretty ladies'. At the same time, although it sounds odd to hear my DH called Mr. (first name) by our landscaper, I know he means it respectfully.

I don't know how 'Police-ese' originated, but that's where you find an accused man referred to as 'the gentleman' -- along with other 'police report' jargon. (I suppose this could have evolved as a defense against accusations of bias prior to a conviction.)

The street thug cat-calling "Lady" demeans himself, but it is *sarcasm*. He's telling her, "YOU ain't no lady." (Isn't this proof that a real lady IS admired?)

I remember when the "gentleman" thing started. Newspapers and other reporting organizations (remember newspapers?) had been modernizing their stylebooks, no longer using "Mr." when referring to the subject of a story, etc. There were issues with the words they used to refer to suspects that were either considered demeaning ("boy" referring to a full grown man) or pejorative in a way that presumes guilt ("villain", "robber", "evildoer") and is presumed to sway the jury pool. Instead of saying "man", they hypercorrected to "gentleman". Decades later I still find it jarring and an incorrect.

Chisue, I didn't think of it, but I'm sure you're right that it has become part of police jargon at this point, and not just press statement rules.

My single sister in law is over 65 years old, prefers the title "Ms". she got mad at me years ago for mailing her a card addressed to "Miss".

The Jim Jefferies comedy, Legit, did an episode on labels, offenses, and when they may, or may not, be appropriate. I find it, especially the bit on the plane, hilarious. Warning though, it contains mature language and subject matter.

The title of the episode is "Anger"... Legit Season 1 Episode 4 : Anger

Oh, and his stand up routine on gun control is a 'must see'.

I felt really OLD the first time I got called "ma'am". I didn't say anything, though (and wouldn't).

Jasdip, I'm full on with "I hold the door open for everyone, man or woman. If I'm entering first, I'll hold or push the door open behind me so that it doesn't slam into their face. Or hold it open so that the person older than me, can enter first."

"it's not an issue of political correctness. It's another example of the
community of "people" who live to be offended and search ways to
manufacture outrage"

Heartily agree. I was a waitress for 17 years. I've been called out on so many things, it was ridiculous. And some people are just vicious about it! One woman ripped into me when I asked, "Have y'all decided?"

Another one complained to my manager when I asked, "Are you guys ready to order?"

I've also been reprimanded for asking if "you ladies" are ready to order.

Oh, and for asking, "Can I take that plate, Hon?" A woman at another table had a temper tantrum. The (regular) customer came to my defense. In those days, I called most of my senior, regular, customers (male or female) "Hon" or "Sweetie". I'd probably get my head torn off today if I were still in the service industry!

He's telling her, "YOU ain't no lady." (Isn't this proof that a real lady IS admired?)

No. It may be true that no women are admired, or respected, in this case. If I say I don't like Hersey's kisses, it could be incorrect to claim that I must then like some other candy. Maybe I don't like any sweets.

-------------------

What I find disheartening is how people feel they need to thank me profusely for extending the simplest and quickest of kindnesses. As if it is so rare an occurrence that they cannot believe someone would actually take the 5-10 seconds required to hold the door for them. A few days before Thanksgiving, I helped a woman dig out the size of turkey she wanted to purchase from the huge Costco pile. The entire task took less than two minutes, I bet. She thanked me; then thanked me a happy Thanksgiving again during each of the two other times we passed later as we continued our shopping. I begin to feel uncomfortable/embarrassed when the thanks extends well longer than the task took! Has it really become rare for people to help others reach high items, or to place a heavy box into the cart, for someone?

However, in the opposite perversion, if you let someone with only a few items check out ahead of you, often they don't even bother to say thank you. Maybe it all averages out. ;) But I cannot say I understand the reason for the odd disparity.

--(Sorry about the deleted post fragment. Houzz sometimes posts while I type, even though the submit button hasn't been clicked.)

Apparently, it's the new latest and greatest thing to do is to be offended by every single flipping thing in the WORLD! UGH! I'm so sick to death of people that are offended by everything!

Pshaw!

"I'm so sick to death of people that are offended by everything!"

In other words, they offend you :)

Yeah, but, lucille ...

... the girl from the ark didn't say that she was offended by *every* (dratted) thing!

(I know ... you didn't claim that she was ...it's only by 'those people') ...

... but I hope that she's not too close to death's door.

o j

Maybe we should just call a spade a spade...like in other words just call them a B! Maybe they wouldn't get all bent out of shape over that word? Give me a break!

Angel mentions something a bit different that I think is another topic.

I usually leave a generous tip in restaurants. The kind of language Angel mentions is something I find very annoying when coming from waiters/waitresses. Not offensive, just annoying. When I get peppered with language like that, especially "you guys", the tip will plummet. Even at a casual or breakfast type place.

Wait persons and others dealing in public with customers should have the sense to understand that customers should be spoken to politely and respectfully. No excuses, no exceptions. I'm your customer not your buddy.

When I started my first job, my father told me "You have a job because of the company's customers. How you thank them for your job is by being polite and by always trying to do your best for them. Failing to do that can lead to your losing your job. It's your choice to make."

Once on a road trip the missus and I stopped to eat at a national chain restaurant that might be called fast casual. We looked at the menu and the waitress asked, "Are WE ready to order?" Harrumph!

I used to work in the office of a county owned nursing home. Although we had all been instructed otherwise during orientation, I noticed that many of the female staff referred to the women residents (80% were women there) as honey. Whether it was in the dining hall or the beauty shop or on their neighborhood. I used to always grit my teeth. Some of the black staff members would say something to an older black woman, "Mama, you done eatin' yet?" No wonder I used to grind my teeth at night.

Going back to the original thing about the use of the word Lady. It made me think of the song in "Guys and Dolls" that was catchy - "Luck be a Lady Tonight."

I've been thinking about this since Angelaid posted. In general, I don't mind whatever convention so long as it's respectful. I wouldn't like to be called "Sweetie" by a server, however, or "Honey" for that matter, if it weren't at least a close friend/relative serving me. I don't mind "Hon" in a casual setting, though. It's not an actual endearment as much as a nicened up way of saying "you there". Similarly, in a place that is casual enough for "Hon", I wouldn't mind "you guys" or "y'all" (assuming I were in a group), or "Are you ready?" or "Have you decided?". And no matter how much I wouldn't want someone who wasn't my sweetheart to call me "Sweetie", I'd certainly rather that in a spirit of good fellowship than the snark and sneer that seem to pass for pleasantry nowadays!

The pendulum will swing back. IMHO we have become a people so afraid of offending others that we are becoming "generic" instead of "genuine." I may be offended by someone's opinion but deep down respect someone who is brave enough to speak their opinion.