I think it is a question of semantics. From what I see on the Web site, I think Shambo is absolutely right, especially since she uses that brand! They really should not be using the word "flour" on the packaging, but they do. It does depend on the type of flour you use for your bread on how much gluten you will need. Apparently there are some special bread machine bread flours. I haven't seen them but that would present an additional conundrum. I use organic whole wheat bread flour that I get at the health food store, and King Arthur organic white bread flour that I get at ye olde grocery store. For a long time I couldn't find real whole wheat bread flour, and the labeling was confusing on that too, but the kind I get is the hard wheat kind, or so it says on the label. It gives me good results, that I know. It's also tricky when they add wheat gluten to low gluten flours to make them into "bread flour." I'm gonna have to try that honey wheat now, sounds like one BF will like. Right now we are lovin' up the yogurt bread. That's one of my favorite recipes in Beth's book. You get the sourdough taste without the sourdough fuss. I make a lot of the recipes in there with half whole wheat flour even though the recipe doesn't call for it. I just like the taste and texture of whole wheat better. I add a little more liquid to compensate, but not much. With this week's yogurt bread I subbed one cup whole wheat bread flour for one of the white, and subbed oatmeal for 1/2 cup of the flour. It has been a great loaf, albeit not very pretty looking! I have so many of those breads on my "to try" list, lol! Before my oven gave out I was just using the dough cycle and baking them in a small loaf pan in the oven. I don't like the big hole you get in the loaves when you use the bread machine to bake in. But it is a godsend right now with my oven being broken. We eat around the hole, lol! I also find some of Beth's breads very yeasty-tasting. I'm wondering if that just goes with the territory of homeade bread, in particular the kind made in the bread machine. Oh, and BTW, being able to find and buy real whole wheat PASTRY flour, has revolutionized my non-yeast baking. I get superior muffins and cakes using it, as opposed to the all-purpose whole wheat flour that was the main offering in the stores for so many years. I remember a time when I was happy they just started carrying whole wheat flour, let alone the different kinds. That's one modern trend I am happy about!

sally2 & lpinkmountain - sally2 - We've been doing a little traveling and it's the beginning of gardening season, so I haven't been spending much time on the computer. I should have added, if you mill your own flour, be sure to sift out any large chunks of bran from your flour when using it for fine cakes, like chiffon or angel food. And you must have a mill that will mill a very fine flour to use it for "cake" flour. A coarse grind of flour won't get the job done. I agree about avoiding bleached flour, but saying that, I brought home my 1 bag-for-the-year of White Lily flour I always purchase when we go to Tennessee (LOL). lpinkmountain - I've never tried wholegrain cake flour with barley flour, but I'm going to bet it's sweet taste would be an asset. Barley does have some gluten, although it's very low in gluten. Barley flour is an odd flour when you mill it yourself. It's really light and airy. You can mill 3/4 c. barley and it will innitially measure 1-1/2 c. of flour, but after several days storage, it compresses to 1 c. of flour. Barley is the exception to the "stir before measuring" rule. You need to tap the container a few times to settle the contents before measuring. I like to mill pearled barley into flour and use it in baked goods. Pearled barley has the bran removed so the flour is very starchy and soft to the touch. If you use barley in a yeast bread the crusts tend to harden after the bread is cooled and the crumb of the bread may be more crumbly, but nice and moist. Barley flour works well in lots of baking. It's one of those under-used flours, like rye. People only think of barley as a flour for a flatbread and there are LOTS of recipes using it for bannocks, pancakes (and other quick breads), pie crust... -Grainlady

King Arthur whole wheat flour is higher in gluten and appropriate for yeast breads because of that. If you use it for making quick breads, cookies, pastry, etc. make sure you keep mixing to a bare minimum or you'll develop too much gluten and get a tough baked good. If you use it for pastry, add a little more fat to help coat the flour and shorten the gluten. Whole wheat PASTRY flour, milled from soft wheat varieties, is your best choice for whole wheat pastry. King Arthur whole wheat flour is milled from high-gluten hard wheat varieties and therefore not really the appropriate flour to use. Whole Wheat Pastry Flour is also a better choice for biscuits and cake. I'd never use King Arthur Whole Wheat Flour for cakes. You'll end up with a tough crumb. I mill my own whole grain flours, so I can choose the correct type of grain for each use. If you make quick breads, including muffins, using this flour, stir it in by hand rather than with an electric mixer to avoid developing too much gluten. King Arthur Whole Wheat flour will make wholegrain noodles or pasta, but once again, it's not the correct choice. Pasta and noodles are best made with flour milled from Durum Wheat, not hard wheat. -Grainlady WHEAT AND SESAME TORTILLAS (source: "Natural Meals in Minutes" by Rita Bingham) 2 c. whole wheat flour (you may also use 1/2 ww and 1/2 all-purpose) 3 T. dry milk powder 1/3 c. sesame seeds extra flour for board 2 T. butter or applesauce (I use coconut oil) 1/2 t. salt 2 T. yogurt (I use kefir) 1/2 c. lukewarm water Combine dry ingredients. Use hand or electric beaters to cut in butter or applesauce until mixture resembles fine crumbs (I used a pastry cutter). Slowly pour in water and yogurt, mixing lightly with a fork. On a floured board, knead dough until smooth and elastic, about 5 minutes. Shape into a ball, cover and let stand for 10 minutes (I covered it with a damp towel). Divide and shape dough into 8 balls (I make at least 16 tortillas out of this dough). Remove one ball at a time and roll paper thin on floured board. Place on heavy, hot, ungreased skillet, over medium-high heat. Blisters should appear right away. Brown on one side and turn. Cook about 30 seconds. Makes eight 9-inch tortillas. ------------------- WHOLE WHEAT SUGAR COOKIES http://kansaswheat.org/general.asp?id=470 Found at the Kansas Wheat Commission Web site along with many other recipes using whole wheat. See link below. We love these cookies... 2 cups whole wheat flour 1 teaspoon baking powder 1/2 teaspoon baking soda 1/2 teaspoon salt 1/2 teaspoon ground nutmeg 1/2 cup butter or margarine 1 cup granulated sugar 1 egg 1 tablespoon grated orange peel 1 teaspoon vanilla extract 2 tablespoons low-fat milk topping 1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon 2 tablespoons granulated sugar 1 In small bowl, stir together whole wheat flour, baking powder, baking soda, salt and nutmeg. Set aside. 2 In a large mixing bowl, beat butter or margarine with an electric mixer on medium to high speed for 1 minute. Add the granulated sugar; beat mixture until combined. Stir in egg, orange peel and vanilla; beat mixture until well combined. 3 Stir in the flour mixture and milk just until combined. 4 Shape into 1-inch balls and place on ungreased cookie sheet 2 inches apart. Flatten slightly with bottom of a glass dipped in topping mixture. 5 Bake cookies in a preheated 375F oven 8 to 10 minutes or until golden brown. Transfer cookies to a wire rack to cool. nutrition information per serving (one cookie): 74 cal, 3 g fat, 13 mg chol, 59 mg sodium, 12 g carbo, 1 g fiber, 1 g pro, 1 mcg folate.

ovenbird - "Are most commercially available red WW flours made from soft varieties?" No, they are milled from hard wheat (or a combination of hard and soft to get a certain protein count) unless it says something like "Whole Wheat PASTRY Flour", then that would be milled from soft wheat. I've had 16% protein wheat, which is almost too much gluten and will make a tough loaf of bread, and I have had to mix it with other wheat varieties, because that much protein would take forever and a day of kneading to develop that much gluten. I don't mix soft and hard wheat flours to make an "all-purpose" flour because I consider it a general purpose flour that really doesn't address all the gluten issues. To me, all-purpose flour is a "lets settle for something in the middle since most people don't know the difference" kind of flour. In all-purpose flour there is enough hard wheat for gluten for fairly good yeast breads, and enough soft so you can make a fairly good cake or quick bread, but it really doesn't address all the gluten factors and options like when you have a chance to mill your own grains, nor is all-purpose flour optimal for all uses. When judging cakes at the local County Fair, I can tell who used cake flour and who used all-purpose. There's a great deal of difference. I often know the protein level of the grains I get (from test weights at the elevator), or I can do water/flour tests as outlined in "CookWise" by Shirley O. Corriher, to figure what the gluten content is, but that's a rare occasion that I'd need to do that. I get grains from reputable sources. Spelt is also a good choice for a replacement for all-purpose flour, especially when making anything other than yeast breads with it, and I use a lot of spelt - nearly as much spelt as wheat. I can also tell from the feel of the flour, once it's milled, if it's hard or soft. If I were to forget which type of grain I had milled, I could usually tell by feeling it. Soft wheat makes a very fine, powdery flour, while hard wheat is a bit more coarse. There is usually more endosperm in soft wheat than there is in hard wheat, but not always. Hard winter wheat is usually small and wrinkled looking and has more bran and less endosperm. Hard Spring Wheat usually has more endosperm than Hard Winter Wheat, but also has less gluten because it has a shorter growing season. Commercial wheat is milled from a combination of hard and soft wheat to get the correct protein content because there is so much variance in grains. Even in the same field you'll have a combination of hard and soft. Anywhere there are puddles where water lays in the wheat fields, the wheat growing in that area will be soft from too much moisture. If there is a side of the field that has some shade from trees, that might also be lower protein than the rest of the field. So most commercial flours, whole wheat and processed white/unbleached, are usually a combination of hard and soft grains. I mill soft white wheat and oat groats (3:1 ratio) to make a very fine wholegrain "cake" flour. That's one that is a bit different.... -Grainlady