bumping to try and get you help.

Unless you also put a prep sink on the fridge side of the island, moving the fridge beside the pantry will make the island a barrier between fridge and sink. IMO, with only one sink, the most functional place for the fridge (and MW) is at top, between the sliders and the counter by the DW. That gives you good work flow, it's convenient to breakfast area and FR, but disadvantages are it would block light from the sliders and visually separate the kitchen from the breakfast area.

If you would consider putting a prep sink where the fridge is currently drawn, then the fridge would work well on the pantry wall, with the chiller under the MW. The sink would also be convenient to the DR for coffee and drinks.

Good kitchen planning info--New To Kitchens? Read Me First.

Mary, what size and kind of fridge do you own or will you be buying?

At first glance, it looks like a built-in fridge but when I copied your image and moved the fridge to the sink wall, the fridge is deeper than the sink counter so now I'm wondering if you already own or will be purchasing a standard depth fridge. If the latter and if it's a French door fridge or a single door fridge that hinges on the left, the wall will prevent you from opening the doors wide enough to pull out fridge drawers.

'Nother question. Is there a reason why the sink cab run doesn't extend towards the kitchen table area as far as the pantry cabs on the opposite wall?

The fridge is not good tucked in the corner as it will need space between it and the wall for the door to open. Or else the doors have to sit proud of the end of the wall, which starts getting into the doorway. I think that is a pocket door to dining room?

Here are two better places I think might work for the fridge. But, if you keep it on the bottom wall you would want a prep sink. Not sure where that beverage fridge makes sense, suppose it depends on where big fridge moves???

Oh was typing and just saw mamagoose and Lisa suggesting similar thing, haha!

'nother question.

Do you want island seating?

Rebunky, great ideas, and much better with illustrations. :)

Thanks everyone for all the great ideas.

Stan Z One more window might do the trick above the
sink.

Stan Z and Lisa, I do want island seating. I'm hoping that with
smaller stools and leg room under island I should be ok with the 4 ft. I'm not a big fan of peninsulas as they seem to act as a barrier to the kitchen. I may need to steel a foot from the formal area though that place is already tight.

Mama_goose, Stan Z, Lisa and Rebunky, I like the idea of
moving the fridge to the back wall and adding the prep sink my only issue is
that it will affect my island seating. I need to think about this one some
more.

Lisa, the fridge hasn’t been specified yet. The opening to
the dining room is just a cased opening. Moving the firsge to the pantry wall
maybe the way to go. As far as the top cabinet length, I think there was a
reason for it being shorter at one time but now it’s just a mistake. Thanks for
catching that.

Thanks for the answers. I have a few more questions along with several observations.

If I add up the dimensions for aisles, island width and counter depths (standard depth of 25 1/2"), I come up with 177" for the kitchen measurement, top to bottom. However, the dimension listed along the side of the plan comes up short of that. That dimension is listed as 14'5", including an interior wall (gen'ly 4 1/2" thick). When I subtract the wall's width from 173" (14'5"), I get 168 1/2". That's an 8 1/2" discrepancy. Which measurement is accurate?

How do you envision using the counter to the left of the pantry cabs? As a snack/drink zone for your kids? If so, I'd recommend swapping pantry cabs and beverage fridge/MW and counter area so that the latter is closer to the FR and kitchen table.

If you leave the fridge where it is, I think you need to add a prep sink to the island. Usual progression of meal prep is fridge, sink, counter, range. Your current plan is fridge, range, sink, counter. Rather inefficient.

And if you leave it where it is, then you need to either shift it towards the range and add a pantry cab between fridge and wall or invest in a built-in fridge. You'd likely need to go with at least a 42" wide fridge since you have teenagers. Hope you have a healthy budget for appliances because BI fridges aren't cheap. Then again, neither is a 36" wide, dual fuel gas range. Nice!
IME, a 40" aisle isn't wide enough to have the drawers in the island open while the DW door is open. My aisle between DW and island is 45" between counter edges (1 1/2" counter overhand) and that's *just* wide enough. I may have an inch to spare but not much more.

Your island isn't deep enough for the recommended seating overhang
for counter height seating. I calculate it at 12 1/2"; recs are for 15"
minimum. You will have a hard time finding stools that will slide
completely under a 12 1/2" overhang (I've tried, found very few
options). The general wisdom on GW is that if the stools are going to
stick out beyond the overhang into the aisle, you may as well go with a
deeper overhang.

One way to get a deeper overhang without losing
aisle width is to go with 21" deep cabs (bathroom cab depth) instead of
24" deep cabs. That gets you to 15 1/2" seating overhang.

If you go with shallower cabs for the island, that solves your aisle problem. The drawers will be 3" shallower so you should be able to have island drawers open at the same time as the DW door is open.

How wide is your DR table? If it's 42" wide, you'll have 41" aisles top and bottom. That's fine for the bottom aisle since it's open to the LR but I wouldn't want it any less than that for the top aisle. 44" is the recommended aisle to walk behind seated diners.

So, IMO, that rules out stealing a foot from the formal areas. You gain in the kitchen but you lose in the DR. (If I could go back in time, I would not build my home with a DR less than 12' wide and 15' long.)

We could help you better the more we learn about your needs. See the questions in the New to kitchens, read me first thread.

Thanks MG!

Lisa, Ever since you finished your kitchen, you are in like, super-brain-power-mode. Such great advice! :-)

I love that idea of the vanity depth cabs on the island for saving isle space. Brilliant! Mary, if you are going with custom cabs, height is not an issue, please consider that.

Oh and catching that one walls dimensions not adding up.... Let me just say, you go girl!

The one thing I don't care about which I know is recommended, is the amount of stool overhang. I know they say 15" minimum, better 18". But, my husband and I both think 12" is fine. Oh, I know others will completely disagree! However, we are of average height. He's 5'10" and I'm 5'6". Our legs are not short at all. I think it is because it is not like we sit for hours at a time on the bar stools, therefore comfort is not an issue.

SPACE for the isle, on the other hand, now THAT does bug me. So I would make sure those isles are not too tight. 40" on the sink side and 42" on the bar stool side is really pushing it, imho.

Thanks, rebunky!

As for that overhang, the OP mentioned she has 3 teenagers. IME, kids take up a lot more room than one thinks they will. It defies physics, lol!

It would be good to find out whether Mary has 48" aisle between island and pantry cabs or 39 1/2". First is doable, second, not so much.

I recommend reading the Kitchen Design FAQs so you understand some of the comments you are receiving - especially the counter overhang and aisles. See the links below.

I do have to ask, do you really need three places for seating? DR, Breakfast, and island?

=======================================================

Kitchen Design FAQs

Kitchen work zones, what are they?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767031/kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767035/aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-and-landing-space-an

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767036/how-do-i-plan-for-storage-types-of-storage-what-to-store-where

Looking for layout help? Memorize this first.

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first

So I've done some
reading as suggested and came up with my new and improved design (with lots of
help from everyone of course) (see below). I’ve added 6” to the space so that it
is now 14’6”. I’ve shrunk the island to 36” and moved the seating towards the
end. I’ve added an island sink and think I’ve got the flow down better per everyone’s
suggestions.

I also switched to a cook-top and separate wall ovens. I
love the look of the dual stove range but think that bending over to get into
and out of the ovens may get weary.

Lisa, Very helpful suggestions I love the island suggestion. The
DR table will be new but yes the DR will be tight on the back wall if not
careful. So the measurements are to the cabinet base around the periphery
and to the counter-top of the island so you have to subtract the overhang of
the counter top to get the true aisle width.

Rebunky The top aisle width is 40.5” and the left and bottom
sides are 46.5”. Any thoughts on making them even on top and bottom at 43.5” each or should I leave it alone. That top island seat my get in the way but I like to have three seats. I may need to sacrifice symetrry and move the sink/windows over to the left.

Buel, thanks for the reading list..great stuff!! My daughters like to sit at the island while
I’m cooking/cleaning. Its more spectator seating than a real spot for eating
though they do eat there sometimes.

Maybe something like this? Fridge up at top (better position IMHO) and prep sink in corner of slightly larger island. Now, accessible from range and back wall.

Keep a pantry unit on each end and have undercounter fridge and undercounter microwave as 'pass through' area to dining room.

Kids can still sit at end of island (slightly more space between stools) and not be in way of dishwasher opening. Just a few ideas :)

Also....what if you turned the 'mudroom/bath" so that the powder room is against the stairs? This would keep you from seeing into the powder room from the dining room. If someone left the hall door open....it would just show the side of the closet.

Couldn't resist a hutch and plant in the breakfast room. You know how I love plants! :)

Mary, your new plan is a great improvement. I'd move the prep sink over toward the seating a few inches, to provide a wider prep area. ETA, If you make the prep sink bigger, you can have a cutting board made to fit over it--you get a larger sink, but also prep space. GW discussions--prep sink size.

Also, you might consider switching the pantry and fridge--the counter under the MW would provide another landing space, especially for anyone taking something from the fridge to re-heat in the MW.

Keep LL's plant ;), but for dish storage, a hutch-type cabinet beside the DW?

Is your DR walkway to the kitchen on the stove wall? If so, I would move that archway / walkway to the other side so that you walk from DR to breakfast room.

I li like the hutch idea that mama goose shows, but with your layout, I'd prefer some countertop in that spot to having a landing place for dishes coming in from breakfast room.

your fridge placement is a very important decision. Give it a lot of thought. Do you want to place it so that its most convent for the cook, or for everyone using. Think about what bottleneck occurs when fridge doors are open.

Here's my interpretation of your plan.

The island shape would be similar to this:

The Woodshop of Avon · More Info

However, because you'll end up with a very long island, I suggest going with a wood counter for the seating area. You won't find a stone slab long enough to do the whole thing so since you'll need a seam, why not go with a different material? A wood counter will also require less engineering to support it than if it were topped with stone.

This isn't the right shape but this island is topped with granite and wood so you can see how that might work.

Easton, Maryland - Traditional - Kitchen with Lake View · More Info

Wimbledon Contemporary Shaker Kitchen · More Info

To make way for the wider counter seating area and wider aisle widths for seating, I reduced the depth of the cabs to the right of the DW, swapping out standard cab, counter & upper for an 18" deep drawer base with a 12" deep hutch top resting on the counter. It would be something like this:

2009 Showcase Home on Park Alley · More Info

I swapped location of pantry cabs and bev fridge and MW and reduced the depth of the pantry cabs from 24" to 12". This will likely save you money since this will be nothing more than a 12" cab with adjustable shelves & doors; no need to purchase the expensive pull-out pantry cab mechanisms. 12" deep is a very good depth for pantry goods, too.

I increased the aisle between sink and DW slightly and moved all 24" cabs to the opposite side of the island. You can store a lot more than you may suspect in 9" deep cabs, including small appliances (blender, small food processors, coffee grinders, etc).

I shifted the prep sink towards the end of the island so that two people can prep next to the sink, one to the right and one to the left. But it's not so far away that it can't also serve as a bar sink when you entertain (assuming counter by MW and beverage fridge will serve as bar).

I added suggested cab dimensions, just for grins. And also because function is all about the math for me. Until I do the math, I don't know if a plan will be doable.

Anyhoo, that's my idea.

Thanks lavender_lass. Moving the fridge to the top is
somewhat intriguing. It would certainly
make access easier for the children and easier to get the forgotten condiments
when at the breakfast table. Only downside (as someone had mentioned above) is
somewhat cutting off the kitchen from the rest of the room. The pass
through would be tough to pull off as the dining room table is so close to the
wall. Switching the bathroom and the
mudroom makes a lot of sense. Thank you!! (also I’ve missed your green thumb:)

Thanks Mama goose, I like the idea of switching the fridge
and the pantry. LL I promise I'll name the planting area in your honor.

Thanks Dilly-ny, Ive gone back and forth with the DR/Kitchen
opening. You’ve made some great points regarding other issues that I will need to think about.

Lisa, thank you so much for detailing the cabinets. You must
have sensed that I need all the help I can get:). I really like a lot of the changes. The island
seating area is interesting. If I didn’t have the breakfast table nearby I
would definitely go for it. I may try to find a smaller version. Lots of other great
ideas in your post that I will go through tomorrow in detail, my brain is starting
to shut down.

If I didn’t have the breakfast table nearby I
would definitely go for it. I may try to find a smaller version.

Smaller which way? Length of island or width of seating area?

I made the island longer so that there would be adequate aisle clearances around the seating. NKBA recommends a minimum of 44" of aisle clearing behind seating for walking behind diners and 36" for edge past clearance.

As for width, you can design it narrower and have more aisle space around the seating area. NKBA recommends a minimum of 24" of counter width per seat. That's one seat at the end but you can't design the seats at the top and bottom of the island to be immediately adjacent to the end because there won't be enough room for 3 sets of legs under the overhang.

Thanks to everyone for all the great suggestions. I’ve attached the
latest and hopefully close to final version. This is basically my interpretation of Lisa’s
interpretation of my plan with lots of input from everyone. Some
changes...I placed the island sink on the far left so that it is accessible to
someone using the stove as well as preparing on the island. Is it facing the
right way? I also put the MW next to the wall ovens just to make room at the bev
center.

Lisa I kept the Island seating area simple because I didn’t want
to compete with the breakfast table and really only need a place for the kids to perch
while I’m cooking. (small stools would be ok)

In the breakfast area, I added a bay window which I think really helps the overall floor-plan. I also moved the sliding
patio door to the family room so that its not hidden behind the breakfast
table.

let me know your thoughts

Mary

I think you are on the right track! The bay window us a great addition.

I think you will like the location of the prep sink in Lisa's plan better. That way you have the entire width of the island clear to prep on, rather than a small corner. I do see what you mean about it being accessible to the range. Hopefully Lisa will weigh in.

It's looking good:)

I agree. I think this looks like a nice, functional and attractive kitchen. Just one thought. How do you use your microwave? Sorry if you've mentioned that and I've missed it. I bet 90% of my microwave use is reheating my coffee or tea so I like mine nearer my beverage center. Some use their microwave to heat up snacks from the fridge or freezer. So you might want to re-think where the microwave is located. YMMV, of course.

You're heading in the right direction. And I'm not just saying that because you adopted my suggestions. =) Love the bay by the kitchen table!

I have the same question as funky: how do you use your MW? That will determine the best location for it in your kitchen. I think it might be better back where you had it, handy for kid use outside of your primary work area but not so far away from the prep zone so you can still use it while making a meal.

With 3 kids in their early teens is one (est.) 36" w, 18" d pantry cab going to provide enough food storage for you? It wouldn't have for me when my boys were teens. Or even now that they are out of their teens and one has moved out.

The other thing that stood out to me is that you have a lot of space between kitchen table and mudroom wall. I think you'd be better off moving the beverage fridge to this area and turning the area into a breakfast bar/beverage center/snack zone/Command Central. It could also serve as a buffet when you entertain casually.

This move lightens up the appliance heavy lower left corner of your kitchen.

You should still have at least a 60" aisle between the counter and the table.

Here are my slight tweaks to your plan. Full view.

Kitchen view.

I widened your island slightly to provide a slightly deeper seating overhang (15" for 36" high counter is the NKBA recommended minimum) and a slightly wider prep sink area. I stole the 3" from the fridge aisle. I also lengthened it by 6" to give you a little more counter between seating and prep sink.

Your island size and prep sink and 36" cook top location is very similar to that in GWer Elizpiz's stunning kitchen. Her island is 42" x 92" with the prep sink at the narrow end across from her 36" range top.

As I wrote above, a 42" aisle isn't wide enough for you to have the DW door open at the same time as drawers directly across the aisle from it. Just FYI, not suggesting you change your aisle widths, but I would plan to store items used and put in the DW on a frequent basis in the cab directly across from the DW.

I’ve been working at it again and made some changes and
would like to get your thoughts. Major changes include: Moved refrigerator to
top (ala LavenderLass) so that I could keep all the major cooking at the top
and leave the bottom for my little helpers. My one concern is that I had to
lose one window so I could have a dish cabinet above the dishwasher. Changed pantry to 5 feet wide
(per Lisa) Moved the MW back to the beverage center (other choice would be the
island) (per funky and lisa). Lost the prep sink. Also I lost about a foot
(left to right) of the left side of the house to make room for a wider and more
forward garage.

Thanks Nancy and funkycamper.

Lisa thanks again for the detailed feedback. So I took the
suggestions for the MW and the bigger pantries. I tried moving the bev center
to the breakfast area but didn’t like the way it cuts off the great room from
the kitchen more than before. I think moving the fridge solves the appliance imbalance.
Elizpiz kitchen is beautiful…very eclectic.

Other than seating, what is the purpose of the island now since you have a nice area between the cooktop and the sink? Or is it for the kids to help out?

Also since you moved the doors to the outside, what about making the dining area into a banquet seating area?

I tried moving the bev center
to the breakfast area but didn’t like the way it cuts off the great room from
the kitchen more than before.

Do you plan to leave that wall blank? That's a lot of empty space without a purpose.

What if you were to turn the table 90 degrees? You definitely have the room to do that. Then you could shift the fridge down and get your window back.

Moving the fridge to the sink wall is a good move. I would, however, increase the aisle, stealing from the aisle on the other side of the island. That 42" aisle will shrink by about 3" between counter and fridge door (assuming this is a counter depth model). I'd make both aisles 45" and make the island slightly longer so that the seating is across from the pantry cabs. The added plus for making that aisle wider is that then you can have the DW door open at the same time as drawers in your island.

Other than those slight tweaks, I think your plan is really nice.

I think I'm getting there. Please let me know your thoughts. Lots of
suggestions/feedback utilized.. so many thanks to everyone.

Changes include: Moved garage back to allow for more room in the mudroom;
moved foyer forward; put bev center in across from breakfast nook and centered
the two; put bay window back in the dining room and moved kitchen/dining room
door over to right.

CP, in addition to your reasons stated, I think an island also does a lot to
facilitate socializing in everyone’s favorite room. At a
party it kind of acts like a bar for people to congregate around.

In the dining
room I want to keep its flexibility in how the dining room will be arranged.
The banquet, though would take up less space, would tie the dining room table to
the top wall. I did however finally utilize your idea of moving the kitchen/DR
door over to the right.

Lisa, the more I thought about it the more I like the idea of putting the
beverage center in the breakfast area as you and others have suggested. I think the fact that it wasn't lining up with the breakfast table kept me from seeing the merits.

What is the door height between the kitchen and dining room?

I like what you have now.

Are you ok with just having one side to take food out of the oven and place it down?

I like this the best so far Mary! Glad you moved the fridge to the top wall and more toward breakfast table to get back the nice big window over entire sink and dw area. Microwave drawer moved to the island across from fridge and sink makes good sense to me. I also like your move of the beverage fridge and small sink and just having the tall pantries directly behind the bar stools. The increased isle widths are much better. You will love how easy it is to unload the dw into the dish drawers across on the island.

I want to commend you for really listening to each little suggestion because your plan just keeps improving. At this point, it is looking pretty close to perfect to me. Nothing is jumping out at me anyways.

I would automatically tend to want to set anything coming out of those double ovens down on the cook top burners myself. So it works for me.

Thanks CP, the door height for the kitchen is 7’6” cased opening but am open
to suggestions. The interior doors are all 6’8” while the two large cased openings
in the dr/lr are 7’6”.

I was struggling with a good spot for the ovens and realize that they don’t have
a great landing spot. Any ideas?

Thanks Rebunky, I like it so much better now thanks to my crack design team.
The dish drawers sound wonderful.

For me it would be fine and in fact, in my kitchen I too only have one side to put food on.

I couldn't read the opening to the dining area but 7'6" is certainly tall enough. What height are your ceilings again?

My ceilings are 9 ft on all floors. I shifted the oven over a little to the right to give some more room to get at it from the counter side so I think it will work fine as well.

What about this? Broom closet by ovens (to keep door from opening into doorway to dining room) and hutch between pantries.

Also flipped dining table for more space around it...but didn't change layout. Just a few ideas :)

This way...serving is through door to kitchen, but access to family areas do not go through kitchen.

I'm not quite sure what you gain by moving the wall ovens around the corner. I think keeping them on the cook top wall and your DR door where it was is better. Or you could keep the new and old DR door locations, like this:

This gives you a route from DR to fridge without going past the ovens and cook top and a direct route from ovens to DR table, a plus when carrying hot dishes.

This is going to be a wonderful kitchen and home!

Thanks ladies,

I think I do like the wall ovens being moved to the cooks wall. It will ensure enough space behind the seats. The double openings by Lisa is intriguing. My one concern is that is it may open the dining room too much to the kitchen. LL, you have me rethinking the door on the right. It may be too close to the large opening right next to it to add any real value and is not as convenient as a serving access.

so my questions is

1) access door on right

2) access door on left or

3) two access doors.

One observation: when you walk from the foyer into the rest of the house you are going to be looking straight at the refrigerator. Is that OK? Would not be my preference.