Please advise/help with Kitchen Plans – several drawings of plans

6 years ago

last modified: 6 years ago

We are updating/renovating our 20 year old house, the kitchen being the first, most important area. I would sincerely appreciate any critiques, advice, and answer any questions. I most certainly could use help! I’m including plans that show Overhead, Condensed Overhead, and detailed plans for all three sides plus the island. Kept the images to 640, so hope the measurements are readable.
Our kitchen is almost 20 years old, as are all appliances. 9 ft ceilings. We intend to stay in the house another 15 years at least so reno is for our needs/tastes primarily, as well as longevity. We will be tearing out a non-load bearing wall to increase kitchen width by 3 feet. Everything will be renovated, floors to ceilings.
We have a budget and our desires most likely exceed it; I understand the design plans below will change/evolve dependent upon many things, including budget. This should take us 4 months, so I’m expecting a minimum of 9 months, probably longer. We intend to do our own demo and as much work as two older DIY’s are able, we have a dear friend who builds houses who will do some work for us and will hire out other work we or he cannot do. We aren’t hiring a KD or GC. We will get permits. I’ve chosen all appliances/hardware down to the faucets and flanges – again, those may change due to budget.
To be continued in next post (hopefully!)

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Comments (3)

cpartist
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Can we also see a full floor plan of the house where the kitchen is? Your plan really is dysfunctional and if you're redoing, why just repeat what doesn't work so far?

40" between counters is not enough space. It's too tight. 42" is minimum for a 1 person kitchen. Your fridge handles will stick out further so you really will have less than 40".

I'm wondering why with a 13' wide kitchen you feel the need to have an island blocking everything in the middle? My old kitchen was 13' wide and without the island, it functioned beautifully. It was almost the same layout as yours.

Ditch the island. Move the dishwasher and the sink down to the left so the dishwasher is on the end of the peninsula, and then you'll have plenty of room to prep to the right of the sink.

If you feel the need for an "island", make it a moveable one.
cpartist
6 years ago
If you switch to all drawers for lowers, you'll be surprised at how much more storage you'll have.

Also we need to see how the kitchen relates to the rest of the house. Please post a full floor plan, not just the kitchen.

no Vent, no gas, no additional prep sink.

I wouldn't put in gas! I would go with induction. It's cleaner, safer, and easier to clean up. If you haven't read up on induction please do.

A vent is a must

If you're the only cook, you don't necessarily need a prep sink and even if you are, you can look into getting something like the Kohler prolific sink.

Also once you have pantry space, you won't need as much upper cabinets space. Trust me on that one.

I have 33” between my current refrigerator and the counter adjacent to it and both DH and I have no issues with it – not saying it is ideal by any means, and I can understand that a full 42” would be far better, and do understand the concerns of having only 40” (less where the fridge door handle is). I’d read here on GW some with less than 42” not having problems with it, but that’s why the request for help and advice – thank you!

There is a huge difference between a fridge in an aisle leading to another room and working in a smaller space with an island. You need a minimum of 42" of actual aisle space to work comfortably. There's a big difference between taking something out of the fridge and standing at a sink or a stove and cooking with too little room behind you.
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The way the laundry works in our house is the dirty clothes are in the bathroom until they are washed. They do not hang out in the laundry room before being washed so I'd never see it walking into the house. Once the laundry is clean it is typically brought to the living room and folded by the wife and I while we watch TV. That location is pretty central to all the rooms. Unfortunately I can't have the laundry room near all the bedrooms because I prefer to have our room and the kids on opposite ends of the house. I get what you'r saying though. I'm not sure I understand the aversion to having clean laundry near a mud room. I realize mud is in the name, but I have no intentions of letting my kids track mud into the house. They aren't aloud to do it now and I do not anticipate allowing it in the future. Do clean clothes often get left in the laundry room outside of the dryer? I know some people fold their laundry in there, but we do not. You all do bring up good points though and I will talk them over with my wife and see what her thoughts are since she does more of the laundry than I do. If I want to be able to close off the toilet and tub from the sink areas (which I do because of different genders) then there would be at least four doors. I'd rather have another door in the bathroom for a closet than a third door in the bedroom. I know it is door crazy in there.. I'll look into alternatives, but I'm not really sure how to do two separate sinks from the tub area on less than four doors without having the sinks in the bedrooms (which I also don't like). Maybe I could have the closet door open into the closet, or make it a pocket door. That would eliminate all but one potential door banging. Thanks again for the input.
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All this input is so helpful--as you've all realized this project is a series of trade offs... One of the reasons we're using the architect is to make sure that we can mitigate some of the trade offs with thoughtfulness and details that might have gotten by us otherwise. We are thrilled with his team so far. It's not a design build firm, but rather an architect/builder --a highly regarded architect who has partnered with his preferred builder. The benefit so far, is that the preliminary cost estimates are run by the builder from the get-go. We're early in this, but I'm optimistic that this will work in our favor and we can feel much improved for our budget. So the numbers are this--we've got 200K to spend--which seems like a lot but considering we are not only doing what you all have been working on here, but also a master suite on the other end of the house...well...let's just say we're already getting very creative with our choices. And we're in the DC metro area so that doesn't help in terms of expense. The good news is that we don't have extravagent desires (other than soapstone of course!) but really want a thoughtful renovation...especially of the kitchen/dining area because life centers around that for us. Some more info-- you all are very right about the tight squeeze in the living room. I'm used to it to the extend that our current "couch" is actually a love seat that is only 5' long and I have two living room chairs opposite with a coffee table in the middle. This is the only configuration that works in the current living room and will likely be the only configuration that works in the new one. But I rarely wish for more and bigger living room furn. --I mainly wish for better flow in and around the furn. When I get a chance to scan the whole house plan in for you I will do so--in addition to the front door and door to the dining area, in the current living room there is also the opening to the stairway leading upstairs and another door to the first floor bedrooms--specifically, I have a doorway in each of the four corners of the room. My neighbor has the mirror image house and for 10 years she and I have noshed over our various attempts at living room arrangements--in the end we've both squeezed all our furniture in the middle so everyone can get around without zig zagging and tripping! My guidance to the architect is that I don't want the kitchen to be a throughway but I do want "some" connection to the living and dining areas. I'm mainly tired of bumping around everyone in the kitchen while I work and we socialize--or alternatively being alone in there while everyone has fun out in the dining/living rooms. Most of our guests end up around the dining table, even after dinner--probably because we have such dinky living room furniture, LOL! My husband and I are both wondering though whether to swap out living and dining room and your continued thoughts on this issue are much appreciated. We've gone so far as...
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Part of why I suggested putting the big ref on the back wall is to eliminate the turn at the ref. The ref where the ovens are and the ovens at "alt-ref" can work too. Not at the original ref location because its kinda bad to have the open oven doors and somebody seated at the stools. It's ok for a micro, but not for something where the doors are hot. My personal preference would be to not have oven doors in a traffic aisle. Looking at it again, maybe park an inexpensive drinks ref on the dining room wall if you retain full depth cabinets. A nice looking dorm undercounter or one of those 2x2 ref-frz like the small lg unit. Possibly a bar sink on the dining room wall run for a complete drinks area there. If it has the pantry and a microwave, it easily becomes the express food area for kids. If you want, you can buy a simpler, maybe smaller main ref without water and ice in the door. The prep sink question is a good one. In this arrangement, you might not actually need one on the island (five people will chime in and disagree)! Its a bit more convenient, but not much. If the main ref moves to the back wall, you need one on the island even less. If the main ref moves to where the ovens are shown, you should have one - so that you don't have to cross the cooking area to get to the water. Where exactly it goes is partly dependent on what type of ref you're getting. A sxs or a french door needs landing space opposite the ref - behind you when you're standing in front of it. A single door ref needs landing space to the side without the hinges. So a single door ref, put the sink in the lower right corner of the island as drawn. A two door ref, the upper right corner. The other question about island width was a place I didn't use enough words (again). Without an appliance, the entire run of cabinets on the dining room wall could be less deep by 6 to 12" and the island could take up those inches in width.
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Happy New Year! It's midnight as I'm starting this. I'm glad you are going to attempt to draw out my plan. Let me see if I can give you a little more help, using buehl's 17:30 p.m. plan from Dec. 30. You also may have to refer back to my earlier posts for some info. Using the cabinet depth as 2', her plan appears to be almost 17' wide, so you'll have to knock out 2'6". Take it out of the doorway straight up the aisle across the room, and I'll use the rest of the things on her design to try to help you substitute my plan. Left wall: get rid of 24" cab to left of cooktop, and move cooktop left into the space and on over a few more inches. You can adjust this after you get the whole plan generally in place. Ultimately, have matching cabinets on each side of the cooktop, and a hutch or some sort of special configuration for your dish cabinets on the right end to finish out to a few inches from the end of the 12'10" wall. Right wall: I have no cabinets where buehl has the 30" deep counter to the left of the pantry door, because since I have the kitchen 14'6" wide, I need that space for the circular part of the countertop. To the right of the pantry door are the ovens--same as she has them, and to the right of them is a large bar sink in a 30-33" cabinet. Lazy Susan in corner with skinny cabinet between it and the fridge. Completing the "L" is the refrigerator, roughly where she has the DW. (Remember, you lost 2'6" where she has the door.) It would be good to have as many inches of cabinet as possible between the Lazy Susan and the fridge, so that corner does not feel crowded. The only way to get cabinet space there is to move the kitchen door further to the left, or take more space from your utility room to widen the kitchen more than the 14'6" width I have, or bump into the Great Room. Traffic SHOULD go to the right into or past the "L", since people would be using the fridge, small sink, or MW if they're in the kitchen, or would be heading to the Hearth Room. Are your family members trainable? ;o) Get them to go to the right when heading for the Dinette, and stay out of your prep area! Island: Explained in my Dec. 31, 12:28 post. Using buehl's island, put a sink where she has a 33" cab, a trash cab to the left of this, put the DW where she has the prep sink, and a bookcase/12" deep shelving to the right of this facing where she has the main sink & DW. My island is shifted more toward the dinette than hers, due to the fridge and cooktop sticking out. The circular countertop starts on the left side of the chair where it meets the counter in buehl's drawing. Now I need to interrupt my circle to talk about size restrictions. My understanding is that most granites are a maximum of 44-54" wide and 7-9' long. There are also size restrictions on materials like Silestone, etc. My island looks great when the circle is about 5' in diameter, but that's too large for granite. The widest round table I've ever had was 54" in diameter, and it...
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Buehl
6 years ago
last modified: 6 years ago
Regarding the refrigerator -- we have just under 33" b/w the refrigerator handle and the counter edge across from it - and it's much too shallow an aisle! We were stuck with it b/c of the numerous measuring errors on the part of our KD. While it's something we've adapted to - if someone is in the refrigerator no one can pass by - it's not what I wanted! (I was aiming for 48".)

.

However, it's your home and Kitchen - so it's your choice how to handle it. We're here to give you advice - with no financial benefit accruing from specific designs/appliances/etc. - and it's your choice whether to take it or not.

I understand that you're used to what you have and you can't imagine anything better - but keep in mind that:

Human beings are very adaptable. We can adapt to anything - good or bad - even the worst layouts! We adapt so well that we tell ourselves it's fine the way it is - we cannot imagine doing it differently or making it better. But, what if it could be better? If you ask just about anyone here who took our advice and changed their layout to make it better, they will tell you they never realized it could be so much better and wondered how they had lived with the issues for so long! (The answer is back to the adaptability of human beings!)

Human beings are resistant to change. Even when something can be made better, we resist change. We like what we know and we have a hard time seeing other ways to do things - even if they could be so much better! And, as I mentioned before, we've adapted to what we have - both the good and the bad. [This is not specific to you - we are all resistant to change to some extent!]

Once we get past that resistance and start opening up to new ideas, though, it can be amazing what we can come up with - and I don't mean just the people here helping you, I mean you and your family coming up with new ideas as well!

So, why not at least try for something better and give others a chance to come up with a better design?

If you are not open to looking at other options, then so be it - as I said before, it's your Kitchen, so you can do what you want with it.

Good luck with your remodel!
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Please advise/help with Kitchen Plans – several drawings of plans

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cpartist

cpartist

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