Interesting. It looks like your architect may have some idea of how a functioning kitchen works. That's unusual in an architect...they're usually all form and very little function.

I'm sorry to say, though, that layouts E & F are not very functional. In both, there is very little landing or workspace around the cooktop. In fact, I'm not even sure E will pass Code b/c it's too close to a door.

I'm glad to see that you don't want an island cooktop...shows good sense! :-)

General:

• How wide are the aisles?

• It would be helpful if we saw all the dimensions...wall/window/doorway widths, distances b/w walls/windows/doorways, etc. Oh, your sketches, at least, have dimensions & aisle widths.

• Build in the refrigerator to give it a "finished" look

  • Surround it with 3/4" finished end panels (flat/plain panels, not decorative doors) to the depth of the refrigerator carcass/box. The doors & handles will extend past the panels so the doors will open fully, but the sides of the box should be covered. These panels will probably have to be 25" to 26" deep.

  • Mount a full-depth cabinet over the refrigerator and b/w the end panels.

Be aware that desks are often "clutter magnets"
If the Mudroom entrance is the main family entrance, can you work in a Message Center/Command Center somewhere near the Mudroom (or in the Mudroom)? It would be a place for keys, mail, purse, charging center for cell phones, etc. If it's in the kitchen, it could also have the family calendar, land-line phone, & answering machine. The desk is a little far to function as a good place for keys, mail, etc. but it could work for the family calendar & phone.
Does the hallway lead to the front door?
That pantry looks very small...will it be useful? Would you consider opening it up completely...open shelving for things like cookbooks, decorative items, etc.?
Where are the PR, LR, FR, laundry, other rooms? [Note: found them on your layouts]
I have to ask...just how many tables/seats do you need? You have a DR table, a kitchen table in the screened in porch, and either island seating or another table in the kitchen itself...that's a lot of seating!
What's the climate like where you live? Is the porch a 4-season porch?
With your style of cooking, definitely get a high-powered range hood and it should be at least 6" wider than the cooktop (i.e., 36" cooktop, then 42" range hood)
The desk in your architect's plan might make a good Beverage Center. It's out of the way of the main work area yet close enough to the kitchen, DR, porch, and FR that it will be easy to get a cup of coffee. But, I recommend a water source there if you plan to have a coffee maker located there. Hmmm...in several layouts there's wasted counter space...consider that for your Beverage Center as well.
"...Kitchen is currently open to the family room...and I'd like to keep it that way" Does this mean you don't want the Mudroom?

Sketch A:

• For a cooktop in the island, it's actually not...

I did what you did. I wanted to add on to my kitchen and had some draftsman that a local builder I liked draw up the plans. BIG MISTAKE!!
The first thing to do is collect pictures of kitchens you like. IF you have always dreamed of a range with a beautiful hood, well you didn't account for that in your plans. Once the walls are there it is pretty hard to change things.
Another thing, do not go too small. An addition is a headache. It needs to be worth it in the end. I would not do anything less than a 48" fridge, 2 dishwashers, 2 sinks, and so on. Kids get bigger, their friends get bigger, boys get married, and so on. If you are planning on staying in this house do it right. It is very expensive and time consuming.
You have so many different plans going on, I wonder if you know what you want this kitchen to look like when it is done. I am not even done with my project, but if I could change one thing it would have been a clearer idea of each wall would look before I started.

Aargh I typed up a huge long reply to both of you on my blackberry and lost it! I can't access this forum from work and replying on the blackberry is too prone to lost posts so I will reply when I get home at 10 pm tonight. I really appreciate all the detailed analysis!!

Aargh I typed up a huge long reply to both of you on my blackberry and lost it! I can't access this forum from work and replying on the blackberry is too prone to lost posts so I will reply when I get home at 10 pm tonight. I really appreciate all the detailed analysis!!

OK, home finally. It's been a long day.

Here are my responses to buehl's in depth review.

1. I tried to put all relevant measurements on my "Existing layout" plan. Are there more measurements that you need? The architect did not include measurements with hers (A-D)but her drawings are all to scale and the cabinets are 24 inches deep so you can extrapolate from that. I did try to label measurements on E and F since I drew those.
2 Great idea on boxing in the fridge. I was hoping to recess it also.
3. Desks are clutter magnets, but I really need one for the household bills and schedule/papers. CUrrently I am using it with half the counter space and no storage, so I am hoping that I can have both overhead and below counter storage to minimize the clutter. I like the location of the desk because it is not easily visible from other areas of the house.
4. I do need a place for keys near the back entrance,but currentl;y I am processing the mail at the desk in the kitchen and that works well. We charge our phones in the bedroom so don't need charging stations near the door.
5. My sons want that back end of the family room clear as they often relax by wrestling or doing martial arts moves with each other. They don't want the low wall with cabinets, but I think that adding two 3 foot closets (for backpacks, school stuff,and sports equipment) on either side of family room door will be sufficient since there is already a 6 foot closet in the back hallway for coats and shoes.
6. My husband wants to retain the family room entrance to the deck, not to move it to the kitchen.
7. That hallways leads to the front hall. Although I am generally more interested in function over form, I have realized that the view of the backyard is worth preserving. We have a very ordinary Garrison colonial, but everyone exclaims over the backyard as soon as they walk into the house. I get a lot of enjoyment watching the wildlife from the kitchen table when I am at home during the day. So, I really would like to preserve that line of view from the front entrance and from whatever table goes into the new kitchen.
8. The existing pantry is small but useful for cans and dried food. It is too small to take out and replace with cabinetry. I would like to augment it with a 24 inch tall cabinet pantry in the new kitchen that has pullout shelves. I have one downstairs in my basement kitchenette and it holds a ton.
9. The screened in porch will be just screens for the walls so it will be open to the seasons. It will have ceiling fans and lighting. I thought of glassing it in but really want the feeling of a screened porch. So it will probably be used a lot in the warmer seasons but not in the winter. We live in Maryland so can probably use it from Memorial Day (not before that due to spring allergies) to Halloween.

10. The dining room is used often enough to want to retain it, but is not usually used at the same time as the kitchen table. However, when we have a lot of...

Hey Nancy...I live in Maryland too!

I may not have much time over the next couple of days...my sister & her family are coming down for the weekend and we're doing our "spring cleaning" (I know, we're a little late!). For the Fourth, my sis wants to go down to the Mall...oh boy!

I'll try to work on it when I can take a break...it's really exciting that you're going to be able to put on an addition...we wanted to do something similar to get a bigger kitchen but it wasn't in the budget. Despite that, our current kitchen is far superior to the old one and really functions well for our family. (Someday, though, we're going to add a first floor master bed/bath & laundry room.)

putting all versions aside except F - going on that one, I'd put the cooktop on the back wall - left and the sink on the back wall- right. you'll have plenty of room on either side of them and 4' or more between them.

where you have the fridge - put the wall ovens (unless you can fit in fridge and want it there)

no banquette - put table / chairs in that area - sort of...
lower down (about where it is in one of the other LOs) - you'll be able to see out when sitting there. and it shouldn't be high enough to block the view when coming in the front hall.

put fridge back by the desk (where you have ovens/pantry). I don't go for the humongous f/fs in the kitchen tho - so I'd put in one about 32" -36" and a wall pantry about 18" (with slide outs). If you put the fridge up by the cooktop, then you could put the ovens back by the desk and wall pantry).

this should allow plenty of room for an island also with possible stools at the lower end of it.

you could put a window to the left of the cooktop - looking out to the porch and then have windows to the right of the cooktop and all around from there if you'd like to (I'd love that).

put dw to left of sink - and use drawers for dishes - all along the back wall over to the cook top area. There'd be room for pots/pans below cook top, corner area and below / above ovens.

the left side of the island could be massive pull outs or drawers as 'pantry'.

MW could go by fridge if back by desk or to the far right of the sink (higher up or on shelf at a lower level - depends on ages /hgt of users I guess)

prep sink - on the left side of island - in line with cook top and fridge.

it would do away with the pantry / closet on the left of the sliding door / FR. If you have a wall pantry, a 'closet' pantry and one side of the island as pantry - would that be enough?

there could also be drawers on the top end of the island - and on the right side of it. could put a big drawer on that side for each boy to store backpack - IF there is no place for them off to the far right of the FR - looks like it says 'back hall' there? any place there for backpacks? or would backpacks fit in the closet on the right of the sliding door/FR?

hope i didn't miss anything important... I didn't take all the ideas posted by buehl and others here (who know a LOT more about kitchens than I do) into consideration. what little I know I've learned in the past month or so I've been on here (paying attention to them).

The kitchen seems like it will be a very good sized one and keeping things you wanted like the island and the view.

I do know teenagers can eat you out of house and home - I raised 4 of them. when the oldest hit the teen yrs (w/ his brother close behind him) we bought an upright freezer and put in the basement. do you have more food storage possible in the basement if needed?

E and F have too many problems for me, so I'm looking at D right now as my favorite...Obviously, you can change the issues your family has with the family room without affecting this plan. I, however, would put the stove where the sink is (with a good hood) and split the windows on either side. I would keep that stove/window wall run straight with the fridge at one end (with whatever it needs to space it away from the wall). I'm not sure I'd want the oven/micro at the opposite end...Maybe a freezer instead?...But it might be OK. Anyway, this would get rid of the corner caves (and if the fridge is Fr door or side by side, I don't think the door on the right would open right as it's drawn now), which don't add or offer much, and enable the island to be longer. This puts the sink in the island, which isn't my favorite, but better than the stove. And with the island longer, you could offset the sink and stove, so workers aren't backside to backside.

But I printed out all of these plans and requirements in order to work on drawings today and never got to it. I think there may be a possibility of putting the cleanup sink and cooktop both on the window wall and a prep sink in the island...But with that plan I think I had in mind for the fridge to replace the desk, so maybe you wouldn't want that...

Anyway, I believe you can do better than any so far. Hang in there!

Good job, once again, Bmorepanic!

I like it but she wants a kitchen table as well...item #10. However, if she's willing to do what we did and plan to use her DR for all family meals, it will work. There won't be another table for the kids for large family get-togethers.

What do you think Nancy?

Hi! I don't want to sound like the nagging mom, but I really think you should plan for a larger frig, larger range, 2 dishwashers, and 2 sinks. Are you contracting this out yourself? Also, will you have a load bearing beam and post. I had to with my bumpout. It changes the entire aesthetics of the room and I really wish I had spent more time on that. What looked good on paper didn't translate to the space. My bumpout is very similar to yours. I will try to get pics on later. My addition is done, but the kitchen is not finished, but you will get the general idea.

I am going to point something out in your existing layout: Your (formal) entrance currently looks through a breakfast room and to the backyard. That gives you the "wow" factor.

I think one of the reasons #E and #F look awkward (at least in terms of banquette seating in your kitchen) is it makes me think of entering a diner (sorry).

To preserve that "wow" factor and to keep the "formal" flow together while still giving you a view to the back, would it be a possibility to swap the placement of the dining room (to where the breakfast room is currently) and move the kitchen into the DR (put the addition there to square off the room)? Don't know if that will work, but it was came to me when I looked at your layout.

Michellemarie Why does she need to plan for 2 DWs? Two sinks, yes, if her layout dictates it, but why 2 DWs? And, why a 48" range?

We have two teens & their friends and have never needed two DWs...

For the refrigerator, if it's a CD I agree if she has the room. It would be cheaper to run one bigger than two smaller...if she needs it.

There's no need to splurge on extras you don't need, it just drives the costs up, drives your electric bill up, etc. In some respects it will even be going against current trends of less extravagance, less over the top, getting things you don't need.

Now, if you do need these things (e.g., have a big family...5 or 6 kids or more) or do a lot of large-group or cooking-intensive entertaining (e.g., 3 or 4 days/nights per week), then maybe 2 of everything (or bigger) is needed. But, to just say unilaterally that she must have these things is unreasonable.

Buehl, obviously she will do whatever she wants. Now is the time to consider how the kitchen will be used as the family grows. If this is a house that will be lived in for a long time and your in the planning stages, this is the time to consider all options. You can settle down, I am not ordering anything for her.

Hi everyone- I'm back, thanks for all the responses. I really appreciate your help. I liked bmorepanic's changes (incorporating the suggestions by rhome)a lot, but I need that kitchen table. So I literally spent the last 90 minutes copying, cutting, and pasting, the old fashioned way to come up with the variations below. I would still like to incorporate a 24 inch tall pantry somewhere in these layouts to augment the small existing cupboard pantry.

D2- Same as bmorepanic/rhome's (which I'll call D1), except with the separate island and table. 42 inch aisle widths

D3- Increased the bumpout by 1 foot in depth to get extra foot on the island for 12in deep storage on the table side, under the overhang. This gives some extra wall space on the two sides also. 42 inch aisle widths.

D4- increased the bumpout to 12 x 20 feet so that the island could be wider. My cut and paste skills did not extend to centering the stove and table but that is the intent. 42 inch aisle widths.

buehl, where in MD are you? I am in west Towson.

michellemarie, you are so right about needing two refrigerators. For the last 15 years we have had an extra one in the basement and when we finished the basement we incorporated that into a kitchenette. I actually like having it down there because it contains the "do not touch" food. Otherwise I find the food that I am saving for recipes disappearing.So I don't really need a larger fridge upstairs. You can see in these layouts though that I have incorporated two sinks, and I have ALWAYS wanted two dishwashers! A 25 inch range will already be a step up as I have been working with a 4 burner 30 inch for all of my life and that has been sufficient.I would really like to see the picture of your load bearing wall as I think that will definitely be an issue.

desertsteph, I have read your suggestions about F and want to draw it out, will come back with that after I do it. thanks!!

rubyfig, thanks for the suggestion of flipping the dining room. I like having the kitchen closer to the back door though, for carrying groceries in. Also the kids make a beeline for the kitchen when they come in the door, and many trips from the family room every night. I think it is better to have the kitchenin this location.

Let me know what you think.
Nancy

OK, I tried to incorporate some of desertsteph's ideas but also some of bmorepanic's into these alternatives for Sketch F.

Sketch F2- note that the banquette has changed to a table and chairs, only one sink located in the island (does not seem to be a need for a prep sink). The island will have pull out drawers on the side facing the kitchen table for storage and recycling.

Sketch F3
Similar to F2, but putting the entry to DR and screened porch close together so that an entry between the DR and the screened porch is not necessary. Again, the island will have a lot of storage since there will be cabinets on both sides. 42 inch aisle widths.

I was all in favor of the separate table, which is why I liked D in the first place. I just like some other elements Bmore incorporated and always admire her more out-of-the-box thinking that allows ideas to develop...as they have here!

I'm assuming that in D2 you'll have a prep sink in the island, rather than a 2nd cooktop? ;-) I actually worry about the clearance around your table in all of these, so would probably vote for D3, but with the island reduced in depth to 40" or so...The 24" deep cabinets and 15-16" for overhang. Then more room between table and island. I also prefer the wall oven that one offers.

I think, in d3, you've got two clearance issues - the side aisles and the distance between the edge of the island and the edge of the table.

The aisle containing the ref should be 48" to allow for the ref to be used and the oven to be opened with someone standing in front of it. The opposite aisle could also use a 48" aisle to let people get around an open dishwasher. Both aisles need to be a minimum of 44" to maintain some type of passageway behind a person seated at the table - with about 54" preferred when the seating backs up to cabinets. That would make the max finished length of the countertop around 70" and the cabinets length around 67".

Between the table and the island, where you have back to back seating and stools, 60 inches is a good clearance with 48" being the absolute minimum - ok, but tight.

Please review now-

Sketch D6 (there is no D5, I scrapped it)- I modified D4 to reflect the clearances suggested, and moved the counter seating to the side since I dont' seem to have enough room for the back to back counter seating and table seating from D2-D4. I like D4 better than D3 because it hides the sink from the entrance hall and gives a better view to the back. I need a suggestion on where to place a prep sink on the island.

Sketch D7-light bulb, possibly!

I thought, "What if I had the sink on the the back wall with a whole wall of windows"? That would be a statement! So I played with the layout. What do you think of this? The fridge and double oven are moved behind the weight bearing post along the side wall , and the cooktop over to the side wall bordering the screened room. I assume that I can vent through the ceiling, let me know if that is an incorrect assumption. Again, I need to know where to put a prep sink on the island. Can you see this plan with a large arched window (if I have the height in the addition for it)?

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Couple of thoughts in return. I think its getting better.

First is moving the range to the other side - lesser traffic area and bumps the ref back over where it is most accessible. Second is trying to provide some "door storage" for the kitchen door when its open cause it looks like you guys live in the porch. Third is windows look better clustered in odd numbers.

The drawing may be confusing cause its drawn with stuff in that location and then uses some gray notes to indicate an alternate. The basis of the alternate is to try and have the most efficient cooking area - so the ref moves closer to the sink, with an offset from the wall so doors are completely usable. The door moves down the wall a bit so that people at the ref don't get hit by the door and the door and glass panel might reverse. Lastly, the cabinet run on the porch/dining room wall picks up a tall cabinet pantry - possibly 12-18" deep. This lets the island become around 6 inches wider.

The colored lines indicate cooking path with stuff in either location and the basic traffic flow. The only thing in clearance land that struck me was the main walkthrough along the bottom edge with the basement door, small pantry door and chairs. Whether that's an issue or not depends on how frequently that path is taken to the porch or dining room and how often you are willing to remind everyone that they must push in their chairs.

Thanks! I showed these to my husband and he prefers your last iteration above (we'll call it D8) becuase the stove is not stuck behind the door to the screened porch if it is open. I was a little concerned as a lot of the traffic to the fridge actually comes from the family room, but in the future it may come from the screened porch in the summer (since it does not currently exist).

Do you have a suggestion where to put a prep sink if we leave the big sink centered over the back wall?

I don't see how having shallower pantries along the kitchen/dining room wall affects the island. It only leaves more room for the table length.

I am going to tape off the 42 inch clearances along the many doored wall and sit chairs there to see how that works.

My next step if to see where all the sorage will go.

Nancy

D7 or so is looking pretty good! will 42" be enough aisle room with the chairs around the table tho?

do you feel like you're going to be running around the island to get to the frig from the cooktop? I guess that's why I preferred the layout with the cooktop on the back wall. you could make that a feature with a nice hood and windows on either side. or, maybe switch the frig and double ovens. don't know how important it is for you to have the ovens near the range.

Part of why I suggested putting the big ref on the back wall is to eliminate the turn at the ref. The ref where the ovens are and the ovens at "alt-ref" can work too. Not at the original ref location because its kinda bad to have the open oven doors and somebody seated at the stools. It's ok for a micro, but not for something where the doors are hot. My personal preference would be to not have oven doors in a traffic aisle.

Looking at it again, maybe park an inexpensive drinks ref on the dining room wall if you retain full depth cabinets. A nice looking dorm undercounter or one of those 2x2 ref-frz like the small lg unit. Possibly a bar sink on the dining room wall run for a complete drinks area there. If it has the pantry and a microwave, it easily becomes the express food area for kids. If you want, you can buy a simpler, maybe smaller main ref without water and ice in the door.

The prep sink question is a good one. In this arrangement, you might not actually need one on the island (five people will chime in and disagree)! Its a bit more convenient, but not much. If the main ref moves to the back wall, you need one on the island even less. If the main ref moves to where the ovens are shown, you should have one - so that you don't have to cross the cooking area to get to the water.

Where exactly it goes is partly dependent on what type of ref you're getting. A sxs or a french door needs landing space opposite the ref - behind you when you're standing in front of it. A single door ref needs landing space to the side without the hinges. So a single door ref, put the sink in the lower right corner of the island as drawn. A two door ref, the upper right corner.

The other question about island width was a place I didn't use enough words (again). Without an appliance, the entire run of cabinets on the dining room wall could be less deep by 6 to 12" and the island could take up those inches in width.

In this kitchen, I think a prep sink on the island is necessary b/c there are two DWs. With two DWs it means there's no easy access to the sink for prepping b/c the DWs block both sides of the sink. In a single DW kitchen, there's a "free" side and a prep sink would not be needed as much.

I actually really like the simplicity of your initial architect's design for the kitchen itself and missed where you explained why you wanted a third dining table next to a large island, probably to keep the family out of your hair while you work I expect. Since it's obviously wanted, though, how about cutting the depth of the island down in favor of more room for chairs and passage around the table? My island is 39" and could easily be less deep and still very functional. I can't reach that far side when I'm working, much less use it.

Thanks, I am digesting the alternate placement ideas for the fridge and oven, and really like the idea of clustering drinks cabinet with a bar sink on the dining room wall. I'm def partial to getting a prep sink on the island just because several times a day we have more than one person wanting to access the sink at a time, but it seems almost overkill to have three sinks. I guess cost might be a factor also, don't know how much the extra plumbing would cost.

I need to think about how big I want those back windows to be, one of those form vs function things. That would affect if I used the alt-ref location or not.

This thread is getting a long due to all your wonderful help, so when I finalize on the general layout and start on cabinet details, I may start that in a new thread so that readers don't have to plow through all the initial plans.