9.64 cents per kwh that is our current billing period. Previous month it was 12.21 cents per kwh

last year in September it was 11.24 cents per kwh

we are on a rural electric coop.

propane right now 1.90 per gallon but it has gone up to 2.89 per gallon in winters past

The other HVAC system in our home is a 3 ton dual fuel heat pump that is mainly for one wing

What exactly is this system? Is it also a propane furnace with a heat pump?

What is the age of the condenser that goes with the 5 ton system? Is that also ready for replacement?

Do you know if you will remain at the lower rate throughout the winter? That is the way our rates work. In the summer, over the base amount you pay more per Kwh. In the winter, over the base amount you actually pay less per Kwh. What have your bills run on the 3 ton heat pump in winter?

What exactly is this system? Is it also a propane furnace with a heat pump?

Yes

What is the age of the condenser that goes with the 5 ton system? Is that also ready for replacement?

25 years

Do you know if you will remain at the lower rate throughout the winter?

Do not know

What have your bills run on the 3 ton heat pump in winter?

No no winter history, this was replaced in May 2015.

It would seem that your worst option is to replace the heat exchanger. Not only are you putting a lot of money into a very old system, it is questionable that you can get the cooling efficiencies from that old system even if you replace the condenser. You can save a lot per month with a new condenser and matching indoor unit on the 5 ton system.

I would suppose the question is whether you go with a furnace/AC, straight heat pump or a dual fuel system to replace the 5 ton. A heat pump is really economical in the temperature range you have posted. Dual fuel would seem to be unnecessary.

Here is an online calculator: There are others on the internet.

https://www.peco.com/Savings/ToolsandCalculators/Pages/HeatingComparison.aspx

I used $2.25/gal and .10 / kwh and a heat pump cost about half of propane for 3500 sq ft. Admittedly, this was an electric company calculator, but you get the idea.

You might also consider replacing the propane water heater with a heat pump unit.

Tigerwoods (oops, Tigerdunes) has an excellent minimum spec for a heat pump and perhaps he will post it.

Thank you for your reply, i am looking for calculators online.

i am getting bids from two reputable companies. Should i also consult our electric company?

Scrap it all and start all over...if going conventional forced air HVAC system, definitely a high eff HP should factor in your decision whether DF or straight HP system...

here is fuel comparison to be used as a guide only in your decision making process.

Cost per 100,000 btu of useable heat
Electric baseboard:$2.64

Heat pump:$1.07

Propane:$2.30

------

here is my old minimum spec sheet for straight HP systems

both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF

best matching VS air handler

full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size

R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)

scroll compressor preferred

electronic demand defrost preferred

thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature

staged backup heat strips

new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset

10 yr warranty on parts and compressor

you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.

any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

My personal recommendation is Trane/AmStd and Carrier/Bryant.

Depending on your location, I would not purchase a new system that did not have electronic demand defrost.

IMO

:

Ok off now to look at electronic demand defrost and find out what it is and how common it is in Georgia----THANKS!

thank you everyone who answered, i am very grateful!

You should google EDD. It is a premium feature available only in a few HP brands. Trane and sister company Am Standard has it. It eliminates/reduces unnecessary and expensive defrost calls. Carrier/Bryant HPs do not offer this feature.

IMO

I spoke to one of the contractors and he said every compressor they sell from every mfg has electronic demand defrost--- if Carrier / Bryant doesn't t have it, how could they offer it on models like Ruud?

He told me it is a sensor that shuts something off. Is that indeed the case?

I assume you mean HP condenser and your contractor is incorrect and blowing smoke in your eyes.

IMO

Good chance the contractor doesn't know the difference between timed defrost and demand defrost. Many times we see contractors who have a good reputation, but not knowledgeable about the products they sell.

Thank you, I feared that might be the case.

i have been perusing HVAC forums and reading homeowner posts on the reliability / quality of their systems. People seem very happy with older TRANE systems, but anything installed around 2009- newer seems far more prone to repair problems. Due to the nature of reviews (unhappy people post, satisfied people don't) does anyone think this is a valid observation generally?

Would a LENNOX system be better / worse / similar to TRANE?

Also---contractor #1 says I need a 30 amp breaker for new heat pump.

Contractor #2 says I need 90 amps---one 60 and a 30.

We have 400 amp service for home but sub panel downstairs is only 100 amps and has a lot of other stuff on it for a 1200 sq ft finished area (heater for endless pool, eight halogen tennis court lights and 2 hp irrigation system pump all outside, and inside lights, fans, computers, three television screens, etc).

thank you for the help!

A heat pump installation requires a 240V line to the outside unit and one or two 240V lines to the inside unit.

Not sure what contractor #1 is referring to, any heat pump installation requires at least two lines.

The outside unit for the heat pump should require less amps than your current unit since it is much more efficient. You actually may be required to put in a smaller breaker for the new heat pump, but the wiring should be OK. But he does not size the circuits for the air handler and backup heat.

Contractor#2 has proposed a 60 and a 30.

It is possible that he is proposing the 30 for the outside and the 60 for the inside. That would translate to about 10Kw of backup heat, about 34K BTU.

Assume both are for the inside wiring for the new air handler and electric backup heat. Based on the amps he has listed, I would suppose he is proposing 15 Kw of backup heat. That translates to about 50K BTU. But then the 30 amp for the outside unit would be in addition.

Wouldn't it make more sense to set up a dual fuel system with the propane? Then you would not need the backup heat strips and all the added costs of the additional wiring. The propane is expensive, but it is still cheaper than electric heat.

Mike is exactly right. I think DF is the way to go with high eff HP paired with var speed 2 stage 95% eff gas furnace. That way you would eliminate a great deal of reworking your electric service. Propane cheaper than backup heat strips, too.

As far as heat pump brands, Lennox is not in same league as Trane.

IMO

Ok, so a dual fuel system, no heat strips.

For my area (central GA) what should i expect for cost? Contractor #2 has already thrown out $8k just for equipment (HP with heat strips) and electrician has just quoted $1200 to move 120 additional amps to sub panel downstairs.

I was hoping to keep this at around $10k. Any possibility of that? Contractor #2 says three people over two days to remove and install.

Contractor #1 wants to use a product i have never heard of---Grand Aire? Equipment for 5 ton 18 SEER IS $6400. Any opinions on this one?

Question---we have gas fireplaces in our three large living areas----none in bedrooms though. Why cant we use our fireplaces as additional heat instead of a backup furnace?

You need to post all the model numbers if you want comments on prices.

The fireplaces may work, but the distribution of heat will not be as good as a furnace.

Right---they won't heat bedrooms. But I would say that the temperature here may dip below 32 degrees (temp that triggers heat strips, I've been told) only a couple of times a year. And the general temperature trend over time is up, not down. I'm torn whether to put in an auxiliary system that will age out before it is used 25 times, and may be moot in a few years anyway if the warming trend continues.

is the auxiliary furnace something that can be added if we see we need it?

I don't know the model numbers yet but will post when they are supplied. I was asking about Grandaire generally, as a brand.

You will have to decide up front whether you are getting a furnace or an air handler with heat strips. Get some quotes. I think your house will be more attractive to the next buyer if you have a fireplace versus trying to heat the house with fireplaces.

Thanks, Mike. I'm conflicted about this because I do hate to put money into something that will become obsolete as temps continue to rise each year. We don't plan to sell, this is a family home that will eventually (we hope) be passed down to one of our children. If they don't want it, well----resale will be their problem :-)

I've emailed both contractors asking for a bid on the Trane 16 SEER heat pump with gas furnace back up.

The only thing worrying me about that is all the complaints I have read about their aluminum condenser thingies? So I am considering putting an awning over the outside condenser about three feet above it to allow for plenty of air flow but keep direct rain off.

Get the XL series high eff HP with proprietary top and not have to be concerned about an awning, an idea I disapprove of...

IMO

The last two winters in New York city area have been some of the coldest I can ever remember. The temperatures in Ohio were so cold that schools were closed due to low temperatures. Weather patterns change year to year. There is a prediction of a powerful El Nino oscillation this year. It is going to be another year of unusual weather patterns.

The winter design temperature for most of Georgia is the low 20s. I would think the balance point for your heat pump with a propane furnace would be in the 35-40 degree range. The number is dependent on the ratings of the heat pump and the heat loss of your house. So you could be using the furnace much more than you think.

If the propane gas connections are in place, then I would think you could get a Trane dual fuel system in the $8-10K range.

Fair enough, no awning :-)

looking for more information about Trane aluminum coils I came across this site with eerily similar horror stories about newly built Trane Heat Pumps.

any merit to these complaints?

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/trane.html

kswl2,

I usually bite my tongue when I disagree with the regulars on this board, but I decided to state my opinion this one time and then say goodbye to this board.

The balance point between propane and a heat pump is not in the 35-40 range as stated above. As you can see by Tigerdunes post above, the cost of propane heat is close to the cost of electric baseboard heat, not a heat pump. Propane is low now, but is tied to the cost of crude which happens to be low now.

A balance point for a heat pump vs propane is in the low - mid 20's, not in the high 30's. You will need to get the electrical work done, but that should be balanced against the extra cost of equipment, installation, and yearly maintenance of a separate furnace that in my opinion will be rarely used.

With your low electric rates and location, I cannot think of any reason why a conventional heat pump setup will not meet your needs. This is my opinion only and should be folded into other opinions you have received.

Doveton, I appreciate your input.. Do you mean a heat pump with heat strips for super low temps or no heat strips necessary?

Yes, I am talking about a conventional heat pump setup with heat strips. The efficiency of heat strips is exactly the same as baseboard heat as posted above. As you can see, at your electric rates, the cost to propane is close. Considering the amount of usage for electric heat strips in your climate, the savings with a propane furnace will be minimal. In fact, if the cost of propane rises, it may actually cost more to run the furnace than the heat strips.

I've have a very old heat pump and I can tell you that the heat strips rarely come on even in the 20's. A good heat pump can produce two thirds of of its stated capacity at 17 degrees. If you have extra funds in your budget, I would actually rather step up and get a more efficient heat pump (although 16 seer is very good) than spend money on a propane furnace.

Anyway, I hadn't planned on posting anymore, but you asked me a direct question.

dovetonsils,

I could be off on my balance point estimate. Whether it is 35-40, or 20-25 (seems very low for a conventional heat pump), it is going to be dependent on a lot of variables.

There are two balance points. One is the point where it is more economical to use the heat pump versus the back up heat system. If the back up is resistance heat, then I agree with you it is towards your range. If you are using propane, then it should be at the higher range. If the cost of propane goes up, then the balance point can be changed.

I happen to think we are going through a long period of low natural gas and propane prices, but that is just my opinion.

The other balance point is the temperature at which the heat loss of the house is greater than the heat provided by the heat pump. Usually that is higher than the economical cross over, but again it is highly dependent on the specific house and heat pump performance.

It seems to me air handlers cost about the same as a furnaces assuming they have similar features. Even if the furnace is a little more expensive, the OP will come out ahead if the difference is less than the additional required electrical work. The furnace blower will be used every time the heat pump operates. The part that will be used less often is the gas valve and burner. Not much maintenance to be done. Every 2-3 years should be fine. It will also mean less wear and tear on the heat pump.

The other nice thing about having the furnace is that if the heat pump fails, you can heat the house with no problem while you wait for service. It is no fun servicing a heat pump in the middle of a winter storm.

I think the OP should get quotes for both options as part of the decision making process. Either option is viable and will work.

I have already asked both contractors for the heat pump / furnace configuration and a heat pump with heat strips.

Factor in the costs of electric service panel modifications if going with air handler with backup heat strips...

Yes, I have gotten a price of $1120 to pull 100 amps from our upstairs service down to the subpanel. That does not include drywall repairs, which will probably run about $300 to $375. That would be added to the heat pump / heat strips configuration price.

Not worth it!...

Well---that depends. We have actually talked about getting more amps downstairs as any increased electrical load will occur in that part of the house. So it would not be just for the heat strips.

It will be interesting to get those bids. I am prepared for anything from $10k to $12k. One contractor seems inclined to mark up the equipment cost 100%, just from prices I have been able to see online. Is that the normal mark up?

We have what in rural Ga is called the "driveway markup." The longer the drive........

I am prepared to negotiate a bit because I know there will be some of that. Contractor #2 did not send out the usual estimator, but the company owner. He started in with a hard sell for a whole house air filter system that is an additional $3 to $4k. We have had the Puretech air system on our current units (three different filters, one charcoal, the other two I don't know what, plus the ultraviolet light for killing germs, etc. We still get colds every year just like everybody else, so I will eschew that extra this time around.

A 100% mark up is very common. Don't waste money on UV lights. I personally think electronic filters are not worth the money and become expensive maintenance items. A 4 inch media filter should be fine.

Four inch media filter--ok I will check the specs for that. Are those the ones that cost about $47? I saw them online when I was researching the systems. I think the multiple filters and UV lights we have currently are smoke and mirrors.

Yes, I have Trane Perfect Fit Media Cabinet...cabinet fits return end of air handler or furnace like a glove should fit a hand...takes a 5" pleated filter...generics are available at filter houses...I just replaced my filter...quite easy, less than a minute...no maintenance....should last up to 1 yr...

That sounds like what comtractor #2 mentioned, thanks!