What a complete disaster. It needs to be gutted and rebuilt by someone that understands what they are doing. Plywood??? Seriously??? A ''unhandyman'' kludging everything?? You will have more rot behind your walls almost immediately.

Get rid of the unhandyman and hire a real professional that understands about waterproofing a shower.

Sophie, thank you for this. It was plywood before we took the old tiles off and that seemed to have survived a number of years?

The fact that everything was done wrong is probably a good thing. It would be a shame to tear out a properly built tile job to remedy the problem that compression fittings are not allowed in concealed locations. Period. But given that seemingly everything else over the bad piping needs to be torn out because it is also wrong makes the decision easier.

The "handyman" clearly doesn't know the first thing about what he is doing -- do not let him do anything else in your house.

Okay, thanks for the information.

The responses I've got on another forum suggested that because it's a shower enclosure rather than a wet room then it would be fine to leave it for a few years. They said that compression joints (when tested) usually won't start leaking on their own, and so long as the silicone sealant is done properly, the grout is waterproof enough to stop much/any water getting through to the plywood below, especially since waterproof tile adhesive was used.

So the question is, can I leave it for now, or does it really need to be re-done?

Matt

Matt,

Whoever told you that "because it's a shower enclosure rather than a wet room then it would be fine to leave it for a few years" is a moron. A compression fitting at line pressure in any concealed location can cause the same amount of damage.

Compression fittings of any kind, including shark bite, in a concealed location are not permitted by code for a reason regardless of how badly a homeowner wants to justify using them. They are prohibited by code for a reason.

The scope of the damage a water leak in a wall can cause far outweighs the inconvenience of doing the job right.

The question you need to answer was asked way back in the 60's in a Fram oil filter commercial... "you can pay me now or you can pay me later".

Think about this... the plumbing job you and the handyman did was not permitted, was not inspected, and if a compression fitting in a concealed location leaks and causes damage you homeowner's insurance will deny the claim.

Do you really need to think about this any further or do you want to keep posting in denial?

It's a complete hack job. Why do you need any validation from anyone?

Sorry I wasn't clear, the wet room comment was in relation to the fact that we hadn't used a special waterproof board behind the tiles, rather than the fact that compression joints were used.

I think this weekend I'll take a couple of key tiles off the wall, and replace the compression joints with soldered joints. (Presumably there's no alternative that's permitted, like flexible plastic pipe?) Then I'll survive with the fact the tiles don't have a special waterproof backing, and perhaps use grout sealant on the grout to have some piece of mind.

How does that sound?

Matt

Either the job, plumbing and tile, is done right or it isn't.

Sorry, I don't understand that comment.

It seems like the worst case scenario with the compression joints is a leak which damages downstairs, but the worst case scenario with not using a water-proof backing board is having to redo the board and the tiling, which is no more expensive later than replacing it now!

Seriously, are you in some 3rd world country?

I've posted similar messages in other forums and I've had constructive, polite and helpful comments, I don't know why Houzz can't be the same.

I'm just talking about a cost/benefit analysis! If there's a risk something is going to happen, then you don't spend the exact cost of the damage of that risk to remove the risk!

Last question if there's anyone helpful out there. The concealed shower valve itself uses a compression fitting (see bottom of page 3) Why is this acceptable if the other compression joints aren't?

http://www.aqualisa.co.uk/aqualisa/files/86/86d9c8fc-c704-4000-a265-e6c01a545fd1.pdf

That's the UK... the country that drives on the wrong side of the road, had positive earth cars, and drinks warm beer.

Do you favor those other forums cause they tell you what you want to hear?

To answer your question... I'm not aware of much that has gotten less expensive over time. Certainly not expert plumbers, electricians, painters and tile people. Priced a sheet of AD 3/4" plywood lately? It's your house..

I'm also in the UK and the other forums are UK-based. Maybe that's why I'm getting polite responses from them.

Come to mention it, that's probably why I'm getting different advice!

Why would someone do everything wrong, and then try to justify it?

In a shower you need cement board - not plywood.

For the piping you need fittings that are suitable to be enclosed in a wall. I imagine that if the shower comes with compression - then it's suitable.

There should be a vapor barrier behind the cement board - or a topical vapor barrier that you roller on.

You should use thinset mortar on the tiles - not construction adhesive.

@Joseph: I looked at that Shark Bite link. Shark Bite certification? Seriously? Certified Hack. I would never use these - just an O-Ring that seals the connection. The real sad thing is that hacks are using these to fix leaks in homes. I'd never put one in a dog house.

Its not clear from a quick reading of that product manual that they are compression joints, but as justalurker points out its a product intended for use in the UK. Given that, if they are compression joints, I'll bet the product it not approved for use in the U.S.

Usually the members here try to be friendly and helpful, but if forced to choose between the two, they will opt for helpful (giving you correct information) rather than friendly (giving you incorrect information that happens to be what you want to hear.)

Tile is not waterproof, grout is not waterproof, water will get through. Over time two things will happen.

1) The tile will fall off of the plywood as it expands and contracts due to the moisture.

2) The moisture will harbor, nurture and grow an array of molds, that will thrive and spread through that space, perhaps releasing spores throughout your living space.

The best you can hope for is that 1 happens before 2, so that you are forced to remove the tile and remove the plywood before the space becomes a breeding grounds for mold. But why rely on hope? If you remove it all now and do it correctly, it will be done. If you wait until the tiles start falling off the wall, you may also have to do an expensive mold remediation prior to doing it correctly.

If you are actually in the UK, then my knowledge of the US plumbing code is not relevant, maybe they allow concealed compression fittings there. My one experience with a shower in the UK was that the water pressure is low enough that duct taping pipes together is probably sufficient.

I see now that you are in the UK, and will therefore retract my categorical statement that compression fittings are not allowed in concealed locations. I'll instead say they aren't allowed here, so they're probably not a good idea. I will stand by the statement that the tile will eventually fail, and when it does there may or may not be mold throughout the wall cavity.

"I'll instead say they aren't allowed here, so they're not a good idea."

Apparently they're allowed in Florida:

"The Sharkbite web site ( SharkBite Fittings | SharkBite Plumbing Fittings ) states that the fittings are certified and listed to ASSE 1061 / NSF 61.
The Florida Building Code, Residential, in P2904.6 Fittings, states:
- P2904.6 Fittings. Pipe fittings shall be approved for installation with the piping material installed, and shall conform to the respective pipe standards listed in Table P2904.6. Pipe fittings used in the water supply system shall also conform to NSF 61.

The ICC Evaluation Service ES Report states ( http://www.icc-es.org/criteria/pdf_files/ac311.pdf ):
- 3.2 Push-fit Fittings: Push-fit fittings shall be tested according to the requirements in Section 3.2.1 for copper tubing, Section 3.2.2 for CPVC and or Section 3.2.3 for PEX.
- - EXCEPTION: Push-fit fittings successfully tested according to ASSE-1061 may be recognized for use with copper tubing, CPVC and or PEX.

geoffery_b:

I'm afraid you're having an "old school" attack. I see this in many trades, the "But we've always done it this way" guys just can't accept newfangled methods and inventions.

I fix exploded reinforcing rods in countertops thanks to Uncle Guido's old world methods all the time. And yes, pneumatically fired roofing nails hold shingles just as well or better than those nailed by hand. It's the rodders and the hand-nailers that are the hacks.

Hey Joe, are you the master of the back handed insult? "I'm afraid you're having an "old school" attack. I see this in many trades, the "But we've always done it this way" guys just can't accept newfangled methods and inventions."

Just because something has been certified doesn't mean that it's as good a quality as another method. When it's my house / my job I get to choose what schedule of materials is used.

Just looked up a 1/2" sharkbite tee on HD - they are $10.97 each. A 1/2" copper sweat tee is $0.97. What does that tell you? Sharkbite is high priced junk for hacks that think soldering a pipe is a mystery.

Same as the cheap backstab outlets. I'd prefer to have a wire under a screw.

geoffery_b:

I meant no insult.

If I'm doing a job in your house, you don't always get to choose the schedule of materials used.

The price difference between a Shark Bite and a copper sweat tee tells me that the cost of labor is missing from your comparison. On new construction with dry copper, the sweat is the way to go, but on a remodel connecting to a water-filled pipe, the time and bread-stuffing savings can be a real value. It depends.

Bob, compression fittings are allowed for installing shower valves. Moen even has a video showing exactly how to do it.

Shark bites are allowed too. .....In the U.S.

The fact that something is or isn't allowed in the colonies doesn't really concern Mr. Nobel. If you aren't versed in what's acceptable in his locale , you should say so and take a pass at dispensing advice especially if you fundamentally disagree with the local custom. You may not like people who drive in the left , but have to accept it in places answering to the Crown.

geoffrey, im sure you mean well - but a vapor barrier doesn't really enter into the equation since Matt has made no mention of a steam generator. Waterproofing on the other hand is part if the conversation - but that's different than vapor management.

Now, value , and what you might do in your own home certainly have a place in this conversation (* sort of) but don't force YOUR bias onto someone else under the guise of "it's not to code" or "it's only for hacks" or "it's too expensive, or you can do it cheaper".

* what you'd do in the States really doesn't matter a hill of beans in London . So, maybe some of you guys oughta pipe down a bit. It's OK if you don't want to help or are ignorant when it comes to UK plumbing. Hell, y'all don't even have an accurate handle on what's allowed in your own back yard.

Please don't confuse allowed with your preference or good value or wise . You're allowed to smoke. You may not like it, it's cheaper if you don't on many levels , and most will agree with you if you feel it unwise. But, it's allowed and some will choose to do so and think it fine.

And who are you to say their choice is wrong ?

I disapprove the use of plywood instead of concrete board. I hate when people do this because it goes against common sense. Wood and thinset/tile/grout expand and contract at different rates. You should use a backerboard that expands and contracts the same as thinset/tile/grout, otherwise you risk cracking in the tile.

I personally prefer an access panel on the backside wall for shower/tub plumbing anyhow. It can be done easily with some window moulding.... I dont see the point in completely sealing in plumbing that will need to be inspected or manipulated at some point. Then you could use your compression fittings. IMO compression fittings arent going to loosen anyways unless you mess with them, especially if you use thread sealant as a lubricant for tightening.

Thanks again all.

I shouldn't have posted in the US forum so it's my own fault! I don't think they sell Shark Bite here in the UK. Local alternatives are called Speedfit or Polyplumb.

I also think our shower pressures are a lot lower than in most US locations. I don't see there being all that much vapor coming off the shower.

I've done what I can to improve the plumbing. The compression fittings have been swapped with soldered copper joints. We'll just have to see how long the tiling holds up. It's partly cement backing board now. And I found out that the ply that was used is "exterior ply" so it's not as bad as it could of been.

Matt

Glad you got it sorted Matt.

Hope your experience on here wasn't too rough and you'll come back again.

cheers mate

For me Sharkbite is overpriced as hell! I prever SpeedFit Fittings from John Guest had same quality but cost up to 70% less check it out http://www.canarsee.com/plumbing/pipe-fittings/speedfit-fittings