If all the prices came in at twice what you expected, I'd first examine what your expectations really were. You aren't going to halve the price by cutting out the contractor, if anything, you'll pay more for subs than you would if a contractor were running them. I'd also be hesitant about the scheduling and other issues, particularly when you're talking about structural changes. I'm not trying to dissuade your idea; just pointing out that this doesn't sound like a small job, nor one for inexperience; structural changes have to be very finally coordinated.

Chances are good that unless you DIY a lot of the work it's not going to cost you a lot less. DIY is the route I've tended to take, it's very often less work and less hassle to just do a lot remodeling work than it is to find a contractor, get them to show up, and get them do do a decent job when they arrive.

Thanks all--we would prefer to hire a contractor and our expectations on price came from the contractors themselves. Before we bought the house we brought up two of the same guys and asked them for a ballpark figure on what we planned to do (plans were not done yet). We bought the house based on their ballpark figures ($250,000). We made absolutely no changes in the scope of work and then when the plans were complete and they bid the job, their prices doubled ($450,000). Also my husband spent extensive time and effort going through the bid himself so he would have a point of reference.

We have adjusted to the sticker shock and are willing to pay the higher price, but now the biggest issue is the guys aren't getting back to us. At this point it's looking like we might need to get more bids and time is ticking by. I'm not sure if they just got much busier or if they disliked the fact that we met with them post bid and asked them to justify the costs and cut their price.

Do other homeowners just blindly agree to whatever the contractor submits without question? Have we alienated these guys?

"or if they disliked the fact that we met with them post bid and asked them to justify the costs and cut their price."

Bing, bing, bing, bing, I think we have the winner!!

Okay--fair enough. Were we wrong to do that? We are more than willing to pay a fair price for work done, but when the price doubled we needed to know why. Is it bad form to ask a contractor to cut the price once?

My husband is in commercial construction and a post bid meeting is normal in his field. We certainly wanted to be sure we were on the same page with the scope of work being done, and we did discover there were some misunderstandings on that.

Do general contractors only want to work with people who ask no questions?

Two fold, they may be embarrassed the bid came in that much higher than they originally budgeted or if both gave you the same number the first time with no drawings and both gave you the same number the second time with drawings, something HAD to have changed. So either soothing changed that you have not mentioned or they both screwed up exactly the same way and now you have scared them off........

"Is it bad form to ask a contractor to cut the price once?"

Yes.

I've got a proposal out to reinstall a granite bar top with proper supports. Could I do if for less? Yes. Will I? Absolutely not. I am certain my proposal is the most expensive and the best value. I would feel badly if it weren't.

Okay--fair enough. Were we wrong to do that? We are more than willing to
pay a fair price for work done, but when the price doubled we needed to
know why.

That's perfectly reasonable; and any good contractor should be able to provide that. What makes it a little less palatable is this:

Is it bad form to ask a contractor to cut the price once?

It they had a reasonable explanation as to why the price is higher, than why would you ask them to cut it? When I used to bid jobs, it was for labor, materials, overhead, and a fair and reasonable profit. Why would I take a cut on that? I'm truly not trying to be insulting, but without getting more quotes, it sounds like a 'what you want to pay' vs. 'what they are charging' kind of situation.

Nothing changed as far as scope of work--really truly. It's a 2,500 square foot house and the only extra square footage we are adding is a master bath and that was part of the original plan. We want good quality materials, but nothing highly extravagant. This was all clearly explained when we met with the contractors at the house before we bought it. There were no surprises for the contractors and they have never mentioned that the scope of work increased from their point of view. They don't seem to be super embarrassed about it, but were somewhat apologetic. Since we asked for the preliminary price with no plans, we understood that it could change, but at the same time, one would expect an experienced contractor could give a pretty close ballpark. In any case, we have adjusted our expectations up and are willing to pay more if we can only get someone to return a phone call.

I am totally convinced that having a general on the job is the best bet for us, so I will make some more phone calls to the guys today to see if we can get something going.

It they had a reasonable explanation as to why the price is higher, than why would you ask them to cut it? When I used to bid jobs, it was for labor, materials, overhead, and a fair and reasonable profit. Why would I take a cut on that? I'm truly not trying to be insulting, but without getting more quotes, it sounds like a 'what you want to pay' vs. 'what they are charging' kind of situation.

Agreed. We approached the bidding process with the plan to pay for labor, materials, overhead and a fair and reasonable profit. We asked the bidders to break down their bids so we could evaluate their prices. In my husband's line of work, a fair and reasonable profit is 10%. Do you consider that fair and reasonable? Are our expectations on profit for the general contractor off base? And also is it normal for the homeowner to pay the general contractor for profit on a sub who is also charging a profit on his work?

Please read the above as not argumentative. I'm trying to learn and appreciate all the input from everyone.

First, there is nothing wrong with acting as your own GC, I have done it several times before. If done properly it will represent significant savings. The people throwing out the idea that there are no savings or that they will only be 10%, are simply making up numbers and they really don't need to. If you have good detailed plans and specs there is absolutely no reason to ballpark savings. Simply put the job out for bid. The cost savings are absolutely going to be more than 10% if you do the job correctly.

Having said that, properly GCing your own project requires humility, dedication, organization and huge amounts of time. You are going to have to educate yourself enough for knowledge to make up for experience, this is not an easy task, for the next year every book you read, every article, webpage, phone call and coversation is going to be about construction. For most people it simply isn't worth it.

Now as to the subs, their profit is simply not your business. It is completely OK to ask for a discount, but you do it by asking if the sub can be competitive with a lower bid. You may ask what is included in his bid, including a breakdown (without prices), but you have no right to his prices. What is reasonable profit for his business is his decision, if he requires 500% profit, and can keep busy doing so, then anything lower would be stupid. Get multiple bids and decide which of them seems a good value (not the same as a cheap price) and there you have your sub. If your preferred sub is too high, simply let him know he is a bit higher and ask him "to look over his bid and double check it, because you really do want to use him."

Edit: I wanted to add, remember you are looking for lower prices, rather than lower bids. There is a great accountant joke that could easily apply to bidding. The guy asks the accountant how much should he tell the boss something will cost and the accountant says, how much do you want it to cost.

aliceblois:

You may be the greatest General Contractor ever, but you're never going to have much leverage over your subs because you're only one job. When it's between getting yours done on time/budget or for a GC who throws a sub 100K in work every year, you're going to lose every time.

I've been the sub that's gotten the call to go back for no pay for a mistake that wasn't mine. I smiled and sucked it up because I knew who was buttering my future bread.

Joseph is absolutely correct, the fact that you are a single job will undoubtedly create some scheduling issues for you. Some of these can be mitigated in the contract, but you are going to have to deal with subs putting you off a bit.

It will also create some quality issues for you, as you are going to struggle with no experience with sub work history. Every contractor has been in the position Joseph described, calling one sub to fix the problems of another sub and the only reason the subs agree to come do it, is the hope of becoming a preferred sub for that contractor.

However, it doesn't typically create a price issue. Subs rarely pass along savings to customers in cost plus contracts. So single job or contractor the bid should be competitive either way.

I just had a customer question why labor was 2x the cost of the material on a walk in tub job. I didn't mind telling him that it was because the layout of the bath demanded that a 5' trench through the slab be dug and move all of the drain and supply lines for that tub and the fuse box didn't have enough room for the new dedicated line that the tub needed without an upgrade.

An explanation of the charges is a reasonable request. Asking to cut that price is not. Not without being willing to give up some of the scope of work.

Get a quote on that tankless installation before you decide that that is the solution. 3-4K would be about average. Unless you need a panel upgrade. Add another 3-5K then.

prepare for higher quotes once these subs realize their scheduling and project flow is in a first timers hands. they will be polite for a while as you learn the hard way ......until .

but yes you have every right to try.

First, there is nothing wrong with acting as your own GC, I have done it several times before. If done properly it will represent significant savings. The people throwing out the idea that there are no savings or that they will only be 10%, are simply making up numbers.

So you advocate, for someone without experience, whose making structural changes such as moving walls and a kitchen that they "just go for it"? What exactly has your major structural changes GC'ing experience been?

So you advocate, for someone without experience, whose making structural changes such as moving walls and a kitchen that they "just go for it"? What exactly has your major structural changes GC'ing experience been?

What exactly do you think a general contractor does? He will not be doing a single structural change. And, frankly, structural changes are much easier than finish work. You have detailed plans with detailed specs, any subcontractor is going to be able to do it very easily. You will have much more trouble overseeing kitchen cabinets, tile work or drywall contractors than you will have supervising moving a wall.

Not to belittle the work of a general contractor but again what exactly do you think they do? Many GC's haven't picked up a hammer in years, there are good quality GC's who will spend no more than 8 hours a week at your job. Much of what a GC does is act as a single point of knowledgeable contact between workers and consumers. Another large part of what he does is scheduling, the third most important thing is sorting through the bids and knowing the better subs from the others.

I didn't advocate just going for it. I clearly said that it is absolutely doable for someone without any experience, as a matter of fact it happens all the time, but I also warned that it is not an easy task and would require a tremendous amount of research.

Personally, I have GCed two home builds, 4 massive remodels of historical trust houses and a couple more kitchen and bath remodels. The first time I did it, I was 23 and there was no Google or Youtube, and it wasn't an impossible task even when I was in grad school. Today the resources available are exponentially more than what I had then.

prepare for higher quotes once these subs realize their scheduling and project flow is in a first timers hands. they will be polite for a while as you learn the hard way ......until.

This is one of those things that is, again, mostly a wives tale. A sub who doesn't want to work with you will not bid the project, the ones who are interested in making a lot of money off of you are going to bid low and screw you with change order costs. The idea that subs don't like working with inexperienced people is largely a myth, they love it. So don't worry about bidding high as much as you worry about low bidding. Also they love projects with inexperienced schedulers, it means that they can charge you extra for the return trip that they were hoping to have to make anyway.

What exactly do you think a general contractor does? He will not be
doing a single structural change. And, frankly, structural changes are
much easier than finish work. You have detailed plans with detailed
specs, any subcontractor is going to be able to do it very easily. You
will have much more trouble overseeing kitchen cabinets, tile work or
drywall contractors than you will have supervising moving a wall.
Not to belittle the work of a general contractor but again what exactly do you think they do?

I owned a construction company. I know exactly what a GC does...and doesn't, which is why I gave the advice I did.

The value an experienced GC brings is in knowledge, experience and coordination. Sure, you can get a desk jockey to stamp and spec a beam, but if it can't be cost-effectively moved into place, you've just set the money you've paid him on fire.

Then there is the leverage with subs I mentioned earlier.

There are people who can call me on the phone and get work done immediately anywhere in the country. We won't even discuss money, and I'll disappoint other customers if I have to in order to be able to get to their job. It takes a while to get on this list, believe me.

If I'm considering subbing for a homeowner GC, they're going on double secret probation immediately and they're going to pay for it so I don't have to listen to myself say "I told you so" to myself.

@ Ichabod -

I am not sure what the point of your post is. I was as, or more, dissuasive than you were, I said it could absolutely be, and often is, done but then tried to instill an idea of the incredible amount of work it would require. The savings from being a owner built/GCed are well documented and frankly not something I feel compelled to debate. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that it is an effective tool for savings, if you want to disprove that information then go for it, but that is a debate with others.

I didn't simply tell someone to go for it. I tried to instill an idea of the incredible amount of knowledge that you have to obtain in order to make up for the lack of experience. Again, something that has been overwhelmingly accepted as true.

For most amateurs GCing your project isn't worth it. They would be better served to get a job, work less hours than they would GCing the project and then paying someone with that extra money. However, it doesn't change the fact that it is not a rare occurrence and it is a source of monetary savings.

911

"Personally, I have GCed two home builds, 4 massive remodels of
historical trust houses and a couple more kitchen and bath remodels."

wow whats that a few total combined years? ill telluwhat, you do type and pontificate well , you just need to learn when to let go.

Absolutely true that I need to learn when to just let go. Like I probably shouldn't post that I find the whole telluwhat thing a lot less witty than I am sure it is intended.

As for a lot of years...I enjoy renovating houses. I typically live in them for 3 to 5 years then move on. So I am not sure that it is really that many years. My job allows me a lot of extra time, I am off work by noon every day and typically only go in a few days a week in the summer. So I have some hobbies. The idea of living in a finished house is starting to appeal to my wife though so I when we build the next one I doubt I will keep on moving.

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that it is an effective tool for savings

Really? Please provide some evidence.

The savings from being a owner built/GCed are well documented and frankly not something I feel compelled to debate

And yet you are.

Again, something that has been overwhelmingly accepted as true.

Ummm...by who?

Experience isn't a commodity that you can quantify by dollars. Unless you are well versed in every aspect of construction you are likely to make some mistakes along the way. Mistakes cost both time and money.

You can do it sure, but in my experience you won't save much money and the project will likely take twice as long. Contrary to popular opinion there are not huge margins on building homes. The builders that do the best, are the most efficient and have spent years building relationships with companies in the different trades.

Time is money. What is your time worth?

I suggest contacting your insurance agent before deciding to remodel a house as your own general contractor. If you are not living in the home, you may have difficulty getting insurance coverage and that is a lot of money to have at risk without any coverage. If you don't have a general contractor, you will need to be extra vigilant about checking insurance coverage for each and every person/company you hire. It isn't a common topic, but insurance coverage is something you need to consider before starting.

Bry911 said it best. To paraphrase, if you are a novice in construction, you really ought to consider getting a job and paying what you make to a GC. It will take a lot less time and aggravation. You will not believe the extraordinary amount of time and attention to details this project will take. And you have to ask yourself…what are you really saving? And is it really worth it? How much is your sanity and quality of life worth? Take it from me. I just spent two years going through it on my fire damaged historic home. I'm finally through the end of it (thank you lord), but am still making list upon list of little details that still need to be addressed. I could go on and on about what to watch out for, and what to avoid. But since your question was, are you crazy to be considering this? I would honestly have to say, yes, you are. For small projects I think it is entirely possible to act as your own contractor. But for something the scale of which you have described, forget about it, or else the job may kill you.

Really? Please provide some evidence.

Here you go

The link is for owner builder and many of the discussions, books and resources are about being your own GC. You can find several scholarly articles from research based on bank loans of GCed projects vs owner GCed.

Again, something that has been overwhelmingly accepted as true.

Ummm...by who?

I am not even going to Google this one for you. The concept that enough education replaces experience is the basis for the entire world's education system. From kindergarten through advanced degrees, the entire idea of institutions of learning are that they are not only an acceptable replacement for an apprenticeship but they are actually often preferred.

I do, however, understand the idea of questioning things so I will ask you again...What exactly do you think a GC does. Describe, if you will, the things that through an incredibly dedicated effort could never be learned.

It's tough to learn experience. Most homeowners who GC major projects learn the hard way, just like experienced contractors did. Learning the hard way can be a very expensive education and can result in a sub par finished product.

If you do some research, what you find is a lot of evidence that there are two advantages to being the GC for your project. The first is that you will see savings, savings vary based on your project, but too many resources and experiences claim they exist to simply be dismissed. The second reason is quality control. One of the reasons that subs dislike working for for owner builders is that they are working for someone without a frame of reference for industry standards. Simply put you don't care how they built their last 42 houses, you care how they build yours. Both of these reasons are very well documented in reputable resources. These could absolutely be false claims, but I personally have no reason to believe they are.

These advantages come at an incredible cost. First, it takes much longer, it is not uncommon to have these projects take double or triple the time. It can also be a lot more work than people anticipated, hours and hours of research on a 15 minute conversation with a plumber just to see if one recommendation is worth doing. Not to mention, it can put an incredible strain on other relationships, specifically your marriage.

The people who are most likely to be successful in this endeavor are those that have either some experience as a sub or contractor, or those people who have an experienced contractor available to them. With your husband being a licensed contractor, even in another type of construction, it makes the idea an interesting thought experiment at least.

A last note, there are things that experience teaches, that cannot be learned. But there are also things education teaches that run counter to experience. The entire reason for construction management programs at reputable universities is to teach those things that run counter to intuition. NPV decisions, sunk cost, relevant costs, cutting edge technology, new research, etc., are a few examples of ideas that are either counter intuitive or counter experience. When I say that knowledge is a replacement for experience, I should say knowledge is a substitute for experience.

In the end, there are enough resources out there for you to research this on your own. Reading all that information will be good practice anyway.

I'll tell you what ... I find that annoying too. :)

Can you save money GCing yourself? Sure.

But it could also cost you a lot more (because of mistakes and all the other things that people have warned about).

It doesn't really matter what the averages tell you. This is an individual person. So they are the only ones who can determine if they are the type that could do this successfully or if they'll fail miserably. And they might not even know the answer to that until hindsight kicks in.

So warnings about the hazards and praising the benefits is great. But debating whether or not THIS PERSON will save money or not is useless. Nobody owns a crystal ball.

I have posted more than enough on this thread (and yes, I am aware some believe far too much), but I decided that I should relay my own personal current experience before I begin closing out my participation in this thread.

I am in the process of building another house, and we were trying to decide between three builders. I put the fully specced plans out to three builders and asked for bids. After several weeks we got back all three bids. I didn't like what I saw, not necessarily the price so much as I specifically designed the home originally to be efficient, even sacrificing some exterior aesthetics (I am OK with this, I don't live on the outside), and we were presented quotes that I would have thought were necessary for an inefficient design.

At this point I decided to pull the specs apart and put the house out to bid myself. There is only one framer I want to work with so I began by checking when he had availability. Once we talked about a few things he gave me a time slot and so I put everything out to the other subs using an appropriate start date. I only got one bid for the plumbing and HVAC, for everything else I got at least 4 bids and usually 5 - 7 (the plumbing and HVAC bids came from my father's old partner and I was able to throw away the spec sheet and ask him to design the systems he wants in his house.)

The bids I got back are not absolutely comparable to the bids from builders, for example I increased from L/480 to L/600 deflection, I moved from drywall to veneered plaster, and added a fire suppression system. Also I cut significant costs from kitchen cabinet allowances as I love and prefer Ikea cabinets. Allowances for some sight work, lighting, plumbing fixtures and flooring were simply carried over from the preferred (of the three) builders and some are high and some are low but I needed them for comparison.

The bid from our preferred builder came back at $603,000. My bids came back at $378,466.94 - These are not cost plus bids, they represent fixed cost bids from subs for the specced work which was checked against their bid to ensure to the best of my ability that what they were bidding is what we asked or very comparable. None of these are hacks or discount fly by night subs, all are reputable and have been in business for years. Often I went with the highest bid simply because I liked the presentation and organization of the bid. I can check what the price would be if I went with the highest bid every time but I would guess under $410,000. A few subs didn't submit bids but most did.

Experience has taught me that I will not see a significant amount of these savings. Reworks that the contractor would typically absorb will be absorbed from those savings, scheduling problems that I pay for will also eat up another chunk, undoubtedly I will have to fire a sub or two which will eat up more savings. In the end, I reasonably expect to have the house I want for $100k less than I would pay a G.C. I am fairly experienced with these things so I am not sure that my situation perfectly translates to anyone else. Also labor in the area I am in is weird, it can be incredibly reasonable or absolutely outrageous and the reasons for the jump are not always apparent. While these numbers may seem fantastic they are very consistent with my previous experiences.

I am not sure what I am going to do. We are currently reworking the plans to add some things. Some much nicer houses have started and we can easily throw another $200k into the house without worry of resale so we are looking at adding an indoor swimspa, and increasing the ceiling height. We may end up going with the builder. If you need corroboration I will see about providing the bids from the subs as well as the builder bids but I may need permission to post those.

bry911:

I do not think you've posted too much on this thread. I appreciate your input. Keep it up, please.

bry911, you hit the nail on the head:

Reworks that the contractor would typically absorb will be absorbed from those savings, scheduling problems that I pay for will also eat up another chunk, undoubtedly I will have to fire a sub or two which will eat up more savings.

Then you have to wonder if that $100,000 savings was worth all the time and aggravation of your own personal energy invested vs that of a contractor's. There's a monetary value to that, for sure. It just isn't a straight forward quantification.