Yes, it can happen. I have not done this, at least not recently. I would think the bud union would need to be a few inches below the ground.

I'm not sure either Nik, but I'm about to plant four grafted (I'm assuming that grafted is the same as budded because they refer to the bud union with grafted roses) tea roses and I intend to plant them with the bud union approx. 10 cms. below the ground level.

At the moment I'm waiting for my Queen of Sweden hedge to hopefully go dormant over winter so I can attack all the suckers that have come up this year It was planted in January 2013 and there was no problem with suckers last year but this year probably about a dozen of the roses have suckered. The chap from David Austin roses who ran the rose pruning course I went to last year advised everyone that when they were planting their David Austin roses they should ensure that the graft union was 'at least four fingers below the surface' - he had large hands so four of his fingers was probably more than 10 cms. My hedge was planted before I had the benefit of this advice and he claims that had they been planted deeply instead of with the bud union level with the surface the problem wouldn't have occurred.

I certainly can't see that it would do any harm and if it avoids suckering then that would be marvellous.

Tuderte, were the roses planted with the bud union overground or just covered by soil? I suppose when you talk about suckering you mean the rootstock has suckered, correct? That's quite difficult to happen with Laxa (I suppose Laxa was used if the roses were produced in the UK) and might signify careless de-eyeing of the rootstock during budding. A good way to avoid suckering (in warm climates), if the rootstock stem has been carefully de-eyed, is to plant with the bud union well overground.

Some canina varieties often used in mainland Europe sucker regardless and there deep planting might help. But in such a case I suppose you don't have new scion canes coming out of the bud union either and you have to rely on new canes coming out of the original ones.

All the ones that have suckered are overground - in fact, I haven't checked closely but I think that all the roses have the bud union overground but I can check tomorrow to be certain (it's dark here now).

I have never had Laxa sucker on me (neither whatever rootstock our local nurseries use) and I have been planting mostly with the union overground. I have had suckers from roses bought from Germany...

I don't know what David Austin used as rootstock for the Queen of Sweden but, because I needed far more rose bushes than my local rose nursery (who specialises in DA and OGR) had in stock, she ordered them in from David Austin in the UK. I've had one other DA rose sucker on me and it was one I bought locally but I take full responsibility for the problem because I knew I didn't plant it anything like deep enough - I was actually wondering what might happen to it if I were to dig it up this winter and plant it deeply in another location? I've bought several grafted roses here from Rose Barni and they've never suckered. Apart from those, I now buy own root OGRs or take cutting of old roses I find in our local cemeteries.

That depends entirely upon the cultivar's ability to root and then grow well own root; the climate, conditions, water, soil, etc. I never did it deliberately, but when I was able to deeply mulch the garden with horse manure, rains (back when we HAD them) and overly zealous hose irrigation (back when THAT was possible) would wash the manure down the slope and into the rose crowns. Some would refuse to root and simply develop old, thick, woody canes which mostly resulted in "one cane wonders" and eventually the death of the plant. Many others rooted like weeds! One El Nino year, my original Harkness imported plant of Euphrates was nearly buried under the mulch. It took weeks for water to stop flowing from that slope and dry out enough for me to begin unearthing the plants. I found Euphrates had rooted very vigorously from nearly every cane. I cut them all off, potted them and supplied MANY people with plants of that rose. International Herald Tribune, Cardinal Hume, the Lens Hybrid Multifloras and quite a few others did the same. Many mid Century HTs and some floribundas refused to root and refused to throw any basals. They just got "old" and many declined, requiring re propagating to preserve them. I guess the best statement would be, "your mileage may vary". Good luck with it, though!

I don't see this happening hardly ever, tbh. I tend not to bury the rootstocks precisely because the odds of suckering are high...and I am idle, preferring not to dig great holes going to Australia. However, where more conscientious types than myself have planted roses (deep), they don't seem keen on producing their own roots either (I always thought the rootstock was too vigorous to give up the ghost for the scions). I know lots of people say that they will make their own roots and possibly, on soil with more heft and weight than my sandy stuff, they may well do so but as a rule, if I want own roots, then I get them either by propagating by cuttings or layering (and here, some roses are very keen and able to root from leaf nodes or, like many rubus, from tips - Goldfinch, Pleine de Grace and Leontine Gervaise come to mind as roses which have consistently produced free volunteers from canes lying on the ground.

John, I mostly buy from the UK where the predominant stock is the Laxa cultivar. On mainland Europe various R. canina cultivars are mostly used and also multiflora (lately). I don't know if they still bud to R. indica 'Major' in the south but I doubt it which is a shame since it is a good stock for the conditions. But may be virused). In general stock produced from seed is mostly used.

Nik, I'm suspecting that the difference in rootstock may have more effect on the scion self-rooting than I would have thought. We mostly use Dr. Huey, R. multiflora and fortuniana here (also R. manettii was used historically in Cali). All of those are a good distance genetically from R. laxa, canina, indica et al. This may be where the difference comes between Camps' experience and mine, more so even than the soil type; the types of rootstock used over there just may be less inclined to ALLOW the scion to root. Just one more thing to research, I guess.

You might start with something budded onto multiflora, since you said it's being used more lately, and I've had many roses on multiflora self-root. It would be a cool (if expensive!) experiment to plant the same rose on different rootstocks to see if one roots more readily than the other.

John

...I can't say I've ever noticed own roots developing on any rose I've dug up, but then again I tend to dispose of roses that haven't been in the ground that long.... I don't think I've ever had a rose older than say 10 years...

...I should add, I bury the bud union an inch or two... I find a visible graft quite unappealing I'm afraid...

...Bierkreek in Holland use R. Canina the dog rose, or R. Eglanteria [rubiginosa] for rootstocks... the one I got from Germany is on Canina 'Schmidt's Ideal' and I pulled 3 suckers off that as soon as I got it...

Within a week or so of planting, I never see the graft union again - the constant layer of plantage (including, of course, the everpresent couch and and such) completely camouflages unsightly lumps and bumps.

http://www.abc.net.au/gardening/stories/s4294678.htm

I bury all my grafts and they invariably produce thier own feeder roots.

I did it when we were buying roses from Canada, which came on Multiflora rootstock (which is not happy here). I'm not to this day sure it was successful. In a row of 'Golden Celebration,' the one that came on Multiflora still goes chlorotic, and none of the others do, so I have to assume that the Multiflora is still playing a major part.

Hrm. I'll have to see how ny Hermosa goes in the dirt.

Adam, Multiflora stocks are not good over here due to alkaline and limey soil. Btw it's not R. laxa they are using, but the 'Laxa' cultivar. Some say it's a canina cultivar, some otherwise. Regardless, it's still species like. Laxa

Marlorena, yes. I will resist the urge of making a pun about germanic suckers.

I'm intrigued about what the Austin guy said to Tuderte. I infer he was suggesting that if the bare root was burried shallow, there was a bigger chance of the rootstock suckering while if burried deep all these would-be suckers would become roots. This does have some logic in it. But the stock (if Laxa) should not have the tendency to sucker from the roots in the first place unless the stock stem (what is below the bud union and above the roots) has not been de-eyed properly in which case it can sucker from there. I have never burried a rose that deep that the bud union is 10cm below ground. I will have to try that and see what happens.

Marlorena, may be this is the way to bury those suckering german ones.

BTW, I planted a potted Pink Grootendorst in the ground yesterday and, since I couldn't see what I was doing due to the plant's vigorous leafy and prickly growth from down low it seems to have been planted too low. Hope it doesn't go chlorotic on me (though the hole was ammended also with blonde unlimed peat and iron sulphate was added also).

In almost all cases I hugely prefer own root roses to grafted ones (the exceptions are the few roses of those I grow that don't grow well on their own roots--'Marechal Niel' and perhaps 'Duchesse d'Auerstaedt') so I always plant grafted roses deep and hope they will go onto their own roots. I hate suckers. I believe roses that are on their own roots will be able to renew themselves indefinitely: so far nothing in my experience has contradicted that notion. I grow almost all old and older roses; most of the roses I've bought have been grafted; and the rootstock seems to be always some form or relative of R. canina (DH buys HT-type roses and some of these are grafted on what I think is Multiflora). They do sucker occasionally, and the suckers are a pain to dig out, but it still seems worth it to bury the graft deep and try to convert the rose to its own roots, as I've described. This definitely happens with the once-blooming old roses, which begin to clump and sucker when they outgrow their rootstock. I have less experience with the warm climate old roses, as so many of them I got own root, either by purchase, by rooting them from cuttings, or as gifts. They don't sucker like the Gallicas, for example, but after a while some clump up, as 'Old Blush' does. On the other hand my 'Mme. Antoine Mari', which I grew from a cutting twelve years ago, appears to leave the ground at a single point.

Of course some roses don't grow well on their own roots, but in my soil and climate most of the roses I want to grow do fine on their own roots, and that's very much how I prefer to have them,.

Nik,...yes I've been thinking I might do that with the German budded rose, planting it deeper, maybe it'll grow its own roots that way too...

...it's a pity that these Continental nurseries use those rootstocks, I would love to order from Bierkreek and others, I had a whole list made up until I found what stocks they were using... as I fear they will sucker....of course I might be paranoid...

...for now I'll stick with own roots from the Hooks in the south of France...like Melissa above, I'm beginning to prefer these and I love their roses, even though I know many won't do well here, even for us, you know....sub-tropical 52nd parallel'ers...

Oh no! You're not subtropical. I am. You're on the mild side of temperate.

..a little tongue in cheek Nik... and referring more to the varied plant life grown here in favoured locations.... on the south and west coasts...

Hi Nik, it's been raining lightly here almost all day today but just before it was completely dark it stopped and I was able to take a couple of photos of the 'bud union' of the Queen of Sweden - actually, the sucker is half way between both these roses (coming up in the area where we park the car). However, there is a second sucker that's come up near the plant with the more spread out base - I would say that both these bud unions are 'above ground' but maybe one of them could be said to be 'on the ground' ... I'm not sure ...

The second bud union -

The sucker -

Is there a chance that you recognise this rootstock?

I certainly took the chap from DA to mean that, had the roses been planted more deeply, I wouldn't have had a problem with them suckering. The other problem that he said is addressed by planting deeply is 'wind rock'. I can vouch for the fact that the way my roses were planted meant that there were real problems during their first autumn/winter - we get really fierce northerly winds here that blow for days and there is no protection for the hedge. I spent days stomping extra soil into the holes the roses made by moving around in their planting holes - they're all well anchored now so that problem no longer exists.

A technique that I think was first proposed by a Canadian around 1940 is to plant a budded plant on an angle. That way both the rootstock and the rose are near enough to the surface to be able to grow roots. I think the idea was to let the two possible root systems fight it out as to which will be better in your conditions.

Tuderte,

Is the area where those roses are planted inclined by any chance? This sucker seems to be growing out of a shallow root not out of the rootstock stem or main root mass. I guess it could happen regardless how deep you planted the bud union. If the soil is inclined this is easier to happen. If humidity stays at a shallow soil level (as often happens with clay) this is also more probable to happen. Also this could happen if there was a disturbance of some kind to the roots. (like a stray adze hit..) That sucker looks to me like a canina but I couldn't tell a Laxa sucker from another variety of canina if it hit me on the face..

I sympathise with your wind problem, we get exactly the same, only in our case the northerlies come in the salted not plain variety.. So do the southerlies btw..

Most of my roses I bury with the graft just at or below grade. I've never had any sucker on me. The only time I have root stock show up is if the grafted rose has died off and left the roots. I do have some very old roses that were Mom's and have probably gone own root but that took many, many years to happen.

Seems to vary by cultivar. The Austins are really good at going own root. Some HTs I've dug up had massive own-roots and Dr. H. had completely vanished; others had none at all and were still 100% Dr. Huey roots.

Hi Nik, my rose hedge has three sides - the southern and northern sides are both on an incline but there aren't any suckers in those rows (yet). The western side (of course, it's the longest) is the only zone where the ground is almost uniformly level and that's where all the suckers are. I was checking today and I think I counted twelve plants that have suckers ! Just looking at hoovbs' comment above regarding the Austins being very good at going own root - perhaps this was why Richard suggested that they should be planted with the bud union 'at least' four fingers deep? Anyhow, not really looking forward to the work involved in tracing back and pulling off those suckers this winter. I don't envy you the salt laden winds - they're really disastrous.

Yes I have had the old root die and the rose grow its own roots in time to survive in an old mini, and in a Peace rose that is 50 years old.

I just pulled out two Austins - a Charlotte and a maybe Pilgrim. I plant deep due to excessively free draining soil, and both roses had feeder roots from the buried parts of the canes above the graft. I was surprised - they've only been in the ground a couple of years.

I plant grafted roses very deep due to my cold climate. I also move roses a lot (I'm fickle). Most of my roses, when moved have grown roots above the graft. My grafted roses are on either multiflora or Dr Huey. I never thought about it before but I think those on Dr Huey have sprouted more roots. I've never had a grafted rose sucker.

Wow, Ratdogheads, I have had Austins on Dr. Huey and won't buy anything but own root because I have had them sucker and had to get rid of them. It is amazing to hear everyone's different experiences in different parts of the world. Learn something new every day on this board.

For the most part, Huey has never been that great a suckering issue for me. Where I've encountered the most problems have been where water was supplied frequently and very shallow, through automatic sprinklers along with the lawn and, particularly where "gardeners" "cultivated" under them, breaking feeder roots which resulted in forests of Huey. Otherwise, when planted and cared for appropriately, I've never had a real issue with Huey.

A lot of my budded roses have "gone own-root",but I have problems sometimes when I plant roses too deeply,too: the branches root,the rootstock dies ,and then I have two or more little baby own-roots growing together instead of one large, blooming-size plant. I can't say anything one way or the other about suckers from rootstock; I get them sometimes,but they only really annoy me when they manage to sneakily go unnoticed until they've grown into long canes; this has happened about three times!