Jasminerose, thanks so much for the link. There wasn't much about SS,
but there were some things about Ralph I didn't know. I love the quote
at the end of the article:

"Why do I keep on with my rose breeding? For love of a rose, I want to keep on as long as I hear that other drummer- so long as I can dream dreams- so long as my new roses can speak of the glory of God."

Yes, that is wonderful, isn't it and so true.

Update: well, Burling says she doesn't have it :(

Hi John, unfortunately Mr. Moore had lost Sierra Snowstorm long before I met him thirty-ish years ago. The closest I ever got to seeing it was growing Renae, Carolyn Dean and Dancing Doll. I did raise a yellow Renae seedling, so yellow is possible from her. Etoile Luisante wasn't Ragged Robin. RR is Gloire des Rosomanes. Etoile Luisante was also called Baby Herriot because it was a polyantha nearly the color ofMme. Edouard Herriot, a Pernetiana.

The patent information was that Renae was the stated parentage. Many years later, Mr. Moore came to the conclusion Renae and the other siblings were actually self seedlings of Etoile Luisante. Unfortunately, he'd also lost Etoile Luisante many years before we met, so I have never seen that one "in person" either. Am I comfortable with his later years conclusion that the roses were selfs of Etoile Luisante? No. I seriously doubt a result such as Annie Laurie McDowell could have resulted from a straight Etoile Luisante breeding, but it COULD result from something containing Gloire des Rosomanes.

Some day, I genuinely want DNA tests of Gloire des Rosomanes, Grandmother's Hat, Renae and Annie Laurie McDowell. Gloire des Rosomanes is strongly in the mold of Grandmother's Hat. They share too many scents and plant textures to not at least share common ancestry, if not direct blood line. Annie Laurie McDowell resembles Grandmother's Hat in a number of her textures and parts. Etoile Luisante likely has a multiflora X Pernetiana (Foetida) background. Perhaps Carolyn Dean might result from an Etoile Luisante selfed-self, but I think Renae might be pushing that a bit too far. A further selfing producing Annie Laurie McDowell is really stretching it.

Did you notice the 1939 reference on HMF stating the breeding was (Gloire des Rosomanes X Dorothy Perkins) X (Mlle. Cecile Brunner X Mme. Edouard Herriot)? I have no idea where that information came from, but it might give a clue to what produced Etoile Luisante. If it's correct, it could answer quite a few questions and even explain the results Renae produces.

Mr. Moore described Sierra Snowstorm as yellow that faded white, probably quite a bit like the blooms of Jersey Beauty or Aglaia. The HMF reference which describes it as "8 feet in diameter, producing white roses the size of half dollars in clusters like miniature white Cherokees". Of course, "Cherokees" refers to R. Laevigata. Then, the 1937 reference stating, "Bud small, long-pointed, cream and yellow; flower small (2 in. across), single, open, lasting, intensely fragrant, white, in cluster."? Then, describes it as a "Mrs. Dudley Fulton type"? I doubt it was as intensely yellow as my yellow Renae seedling, but it probably was about as color stable. It's definitely one of many of his roses I would love to have been able to study.

Thanks, Kim. I knew you'd have interesting information, even if you hadn't seen the rose, lol. And I did know that Ragged Robin is Gloire des Rosomanes. I had even gone back to check the spelling, and somehow typed the wrong rose. I've been studying the history/ancestry of Annie for a couple of days, and I have roses, bloodlines and breeders colliding in my head.

Your expanded family tree explains a lot, and makes it much more feasible that yellow could arise in that bloodline. But dang it, I STILL want to see Sierra Snowstorm.

I grow Grandmother's Hat, and now I've got ALM, so I'll be watching for similarities. Not having grown GH for long, it hadn't dawned on me she might be related to ALM. I do know that if ALM makes it through her first winter that she's going to be one of my favorites. She's already making a gorgeous plant. And I mean gorgeous (but I haven't let her bloom, yet. I may have to relent next Spring).

Thanks again, my friend. You're a true gem and invaluable resource. Oh, and by the way, I hope you're writing a rose-oriented memoir???? We need all these tidbits of info all in one place! lol. I'll buy the first copy...

John

Thanks, John! LOL! I've actually tried to write it all down, but it doesn't work. It requires interaction to bring the "tid bits" to the surface. It works perfectly in a conversation, or reading posts in threads, but to sit down and just "write", doesn't work.

I'm glad you're liking Annie! I feared not being able to have one to bring with me to the new place, so I budded her last year and now have her growing happily here. I've only ever discovered one, self set hip on the huge plant I'd given a client friend, the big one pictured on HMF. None of the seeds germinated. I began playing with it this year here, and found there are stamen in those overly double blooms and her anthers release pollen! Robert Rippetoe has raised seedlings using her, but I had never found enough to work with, until now. There are a number of hips out back swelling from her pollen, and there are two, large hips forming on two of the plants right now.

You want to obtain Gloire des Rosomanes and plant it near Grandmother's Hat. Study the wood, foliage, new growth, buds; study the textures and scents of all the plant parts, the petal textures, scent of the collected anthers, fresh and dried. Look deeply into the stigmas of both; tear apart both blooms and study how they compare. Notice how both have very similar "sweet, often peppery cedar" scents to their new growth tips, peduncles, ovaries and sepals. That scent isn't common. Those are the only two roses I've yet encountered possessing it. I believe you will develop a "feel" for how they are related. Then, compare Grandmother's Hat's flowers to Annie's, their buds, flower textures and see if they don't "feel" similar to you. I can't explain it. I can't point to anything definitive. I can tell you they "feel" related. They just haven't "told" me how, yet. Thanks. Kim