No, carbonates do not improve rinsing whatsoever. What I meant was, you can improve rinsing with some powders by using STPP. It'll tie up the water hardness, and prevent so much of that carbonate parctipate from accumulating on clothes, leading to poor rinsing & stiff fabrics.

I'm also using a bit in my dishwasher. Or at least, I'm giving it a trial over a few loads. Using 1 tsp for it.

I did misunderstsbd you Mich...isn't it easy to do here lol

Thsnk you Blues lol

Mich sodium carbonate can be a good thing or a nightmare..thats why I don't like additives that have so much of the stuff in it and it'd one of the big reasons I use STPP, even top loaders can't excape damage from excess Carbonate. But in normal doses its fine.

Aa, a few years ago I thought my D/W was junk too many dirty dishes after I ran it,, than I added STPP wow a world of difference CLEAN dishes..I think phosphates were removed from automatic dish detergent in 2010 but I could be wrong.

@mamapinky0, 16 states enacted laws that went into effect on July 1, 2010. That's what led to phosphates being removed, nationwide.

Detergent manufactures, didn't want to produce two different products for the whole country. Lame, if you ask me.

Wait...Mitch said it's shouldn't be used for darks & colors.

I was under the impression that STPP is safe for ALL colors including whites.

I just got my 1lb of STPP today from Amazon.

I don't have hard water, it's soft so I'm not using STPP to soften water, more so for better cleaning/rinsing.

So can I use it on blacks and colors?

I'm "all in" as I hear poker plays say... Just ordered 5lbs STPP from Amazon!

George, I have tried to find the answers to if STPP fades clothes, but can not find any reference one way or the other, I haven't had fading with mine, but that isn't a scientific fact. lol.

If anyone else can find any info on STPP and fading please share.

I'm also going to say, if you are using a good TOL detergent you really don't need phosphates expecially if you have softer water. I use STPP but generally use them on really heavy soils which this house has an abundance of. But if your dealing with moderate soils a TOL detergent is usually all you need. I don't want anyone to think without added phosphates you are not getting your clothes clean or caring for your machine. We all in the end must research and decide if we will benefit from phosphates.

Modern detergent although it doesn't contain phosphates usually do a good job, its when you consistantly use a BOL detergent loaded in excess Carbonate or carbonate loaded boosters on a regular basis that I see a problem. Personally I think STPP is the single best additive I have ever used. And would love to see phosphates become the standard in detergent again, but we all know that will never happen.

Anyone using STPP here for the 1'st time post your questions someone here will help you and let us all know your results....now do that Phosphate Wiggle lol

Our detergent powders use Zeolite as the main softening ingredient. It works as an ion exchanger without precipitation from what I understand. However, Zeolite itself is not water soluble so one has to rinse thoroughly to get the stuff out of the clothes.

And as an FYI to those who haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere, for my input in this thread - I have very hard water.

STTP also a carcinogen and very bad for the environment. That's why it's not allowed in laundry detergent any longer.

aa - How hard is your water? Mine is 23 GPG.

Tibb, Two other ingredients Sodium Lauryl Sulfate & 1, 4 Dioxane....enough said lol.

Sodium tripolyphosphate is on the FDA's Generally Recognized as Safe list.

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?CFRPart=182

Everyone has to make their own decision environment-wise about STPP, based on reliable information and how their own wastewater is treated. My wastewater goes into a conventional septic tank, and it's my understanding that phosphates are captured by the soil long before they would reach any open body of water.

Thank you Subrubanmd

Not that I'd want any of you to eat it. But, STPP... is completely non-toxic. Coca-Cola one of the largest producers of sugary soft drinks in this nation, uses phosphates to make phosphoric acid... to add a unique taste & flavor to drinks. I think most Pepsi & Snapple (Dr.Pepper) made drinks, contain the ingredient as well.

Sodium Tripolyphosphate can *also* be found in some cereals, supermarket fish, most toothpaste, and even makeup. For years & years, most companies left out Phosphates on the ingredients listing of boxes, because... it's non-toxic. It's not required to be listed. Most just listed "Phosphorus Content" which was required under Federal Law for household Laundry & Dishwasher Detergent's.

I've also been told... for most of us, in this country. Modern waste water treatment removes & breaks down the phosphorus, from the phosphate, so... there never discharged into our lakes & streams.

Even in 2010... Most counties in this country, had already upgraded there treatment facility's a long time ago. The Phosphate Free, Dishwasher Bans... didn't have any noticeable effect for rivers & streams.

Quite frankly though... In my opinion, The environmental damage caused by millions of people suddenly replacing there Dishwashers because they thought something was wrong... Probably had a whole lot more impact on the environment. I mean, we're talking hundreds of thousands of dishwashers (at-least) ... thrown into the trash.

@george_ct, I just wouldn't use it on stuff really dark. STPP is a breaking agent. And.. Just like Sodium Carbonate, it will pull out loose dyes.

Most colors or colours, will be fine though. I only advise caution, on stuff... you'd use Woolite on :-)

Laundry mitch, it's not one or the other. Americans have a LONG way to go when it comes to conservation and waste. It'd help if corporate culture would change and return to making quality products that actually work and last.

So true Mich. Not even to mention the last time I checked once phosphates were banned in detergent it was found that it only contributed to 3% of the algae growth In rivers, lakes, streams.

All those dishwashers in landfills because the average consumer had not a foggy idea that when their D/W *broke* it wasn't broke at all it was the removal of Phosphates.

I think most waste treatment plants have to remove Phosphates, after all its in the waste we flush down the toilet.

Fun Fact: did you know your sweat contains phosphates.

whirlpool_trainee - I am not sure exactly. We are on a well, so no published reports. However, I have a nice collection of tests for pools and aquariums. One of the tests is for general hardness. It normally takes me 19-20 drops to get the color change which equates to 19-20 gpg and 340-358 ppm, so just slightly less hard than your water is. The test not be exact, but it's close enough to confirm very hard water (according to most charts used in the US that I have seen).

Mama, thanks! This was VERY information and much appreciated! I have to dig up my research on STPP to be able to contribute more. I will say that we have hard water and no water softener, so I have been using STPP in all of my laundry for several years. I have never noticed any fading of darks or colors. In fact, I use Forever New for my delicates and I am certain it contains or use to contain STPP. It's a "boutique" type detergent and I can't imagine they would have included STPP if it faded colors...? I threw out the package and now their website looks like they maybe changed the ingredients and packaging. AUGH! I am going to buy more from Amazon as they seem to have the old packages, and I will see what the ingredients are.

Bright, I have a bit of Forever New that Roc sent me, I haven't used it yet as it smells so good I need to be able to smell it when the urge strikes. LOL I'm glad to know Amazon sells it thank you. Also have you ever used it on bed sheets and whats your opinion?

Mama, I am going to send some Forever New to you in the original container because I think you will like the bottle. The top and writing is in PINK! I transfer my detergents to containers that fit in my laundry closet shelving because I have such little space. Then you will be able to smell when you like :) I would love for you to try it and let me know what you think.

Okay, I am not panicking anymore, I was looking at the Canada version of Forever New detergent! The US version doesn't look different, PHEW! However, it does appear that the US Forever New does not have phosphates, but I am still wondering why I thought it did.

Maybe I thought Forever New container STPP because this lingerie wash has STPP in it, and I was probably comparing lingerie detergents in the past. (http://shop.nordstrom.com/s/hanky-panky-lingerie-wash-powder/3584793?origin=category-personalizedsort&contextualcategoryid=0&fashionColor=&resultback=2752)

@Mama, I have not used Forever New on bed sheets but I LOVE the way Forever New smells! I use it on all of my delicates and a lot of my darks. I usually dry my clothes on a drying rack inside. The laundry smells so good when it is drying, my favorite laundry scent! The clothes are so soft without needing FS. It outperforms The Laundress, IMO. I also love the way the Laundress smells, but not quite as much as Forever New.

I used to always use Tide original powder on my bed sheets with a TBS of sodium percarbonate and they smelled the best! I guess I feel like sheets need a stronger detergent. I read about how dirty sheets get in "Home Comforts" and got the heebie-jeebies. I could be wrong,...if you try Forever New on sheets, let me know. I am excited to try your tide pro and larsi's tide with downy on my sheets. Right now I am using Miele ultra white and really love it!

Bright is this the Forever New bottle? Rock sent me this little treasure lol. Smells like heaven.

The Hanky Panky I've never heard of but I'll be darn, it does have stpp. Lol.

I think I will get to the post office tomorrow, I will let you know .

Oh yes, that's the bottle, mama!

Wait, wait, sorry, I was thinking of TSP.

HOME COMFORTS, I swore I was the only one who read that book :D lol

She makes Martha Stewart, look so average... that's for sure.

Tibs tsp=trisodium phosphate..its in some cereals..lol..sorry honey you still have the wrong chemical, its easy to do there's so many different toxic ones out there..I have a lot of trouble getting them straight.

Oh yeah. TSP... is horrible for fabrics. It's too alkaline, and hard to rinse . On the other hand... if I was cleaning a driveway... that'd be my go-to chemical ;)

@Mitch, Yay, another person who read Home Comforts! I absolutely LOVE that book and it is an ear-marked reference for sure. The only downside is she provides SO MUCH great info. After reading that book I spent a little too much time taking the temperature of my wash water, weighing laundry, etc... HAHA, and that is just from ONE chapter ;)

All over the web I read about people using the TSP in their wash and how that is the chemical that was taken out of detergents. Over here everyone is talking about the STPP is good and the TSP is not good. I am so confused. LOL

Jody the phosphate that once was used in detergents was Sodium TriPolyPhosphate= STPP

TSP= TriSodiumPhosphate. Notice the *Poly* is gone. They are both phosphates yes, but the Tsp will form a cloud of dust in the wash water and will settle onto your clothes. STpp will contain the dirt minerals and carbonates and prevent them from settling onto clothes. Tsp is used to clean driveways and walls, stpp is used in laundry.

I know that goes around the web, but those people are misinformed.

I have a whole house water softener and have found regular detergents, including top line detergents such as Tide and Persil, to be lacking in the stain removal department. In fact, no modern detergent will remove oily stains in my clothes without pre-treating. I remember when I was younger, we never pre-treated anything. We put all of our clothes into the machine, dumped in some Tide or whatever was on hand, and stuff just came out clean - including the oily stains. I am now able to replicate that with the addition of STPP. I no longer have to pre-treat stains - everything just comes out clean. I mix my detergent and STPP in a 1:1 ratio. For instance, 1 TBSP detergent and 1 TBSP STPP.

Sshrivastava, I also don't pretreat stains, well lets say its very rare and usually only if it's something someone has brought to me with stains that have gone thru a dryer. It doesn't matter what I throw at it, STPP gets it out. I know a few people that haven't had the best of luck with stpp, but I came to the conclusion they just arnt using enough. And on top of STPP' wonderful softening and Breaking abilities, it also give amazing rinsing.

@sshrivastava, There's a good reason STPP gets out oily stains. The breaking properties in Complex Phosphates actually surround grease & oil... lifting it out like a magnet and suspending it in solution with the water.

When P&G introduced Dawn, in the early 70's. It's main ingredient was Phosphates. While.. I never myself, used the original product. I do know, from research that it was extremely effective, and very popular with housewives.

It's my understanding... that before, mainstream dish soaps... a lot of dishes we're being washed in "all purpose" or laundry detergents. And it worked... they we're loaded with Phosphate, and cleaned dishes well. But... they we're extremely harsh on hands. Suddenly.. there was a new product on the market... that cleaned well, and didn't contain so many harsh alkis.

(Try putting in your hands in a dissolved solution of Sodium Carbonate. It'll leave your hands extremely burned, and irradiated. Try that with STPP... and your hands will feel wonderful)

@sshrivastava, Also worth noting. Many detergents of the 70's & 80's, never contained as many ingredients like they do now. Most we're just Phosphates & Surfactants. Some higher tier detergent's would contain a Protease enzyme, but nothing like Tide or Persil today.

They all just contained, large amounts of phosphates, not only as a primary builder but also a stain remover. And they we're quite effective. You didn't have to pretreat or worry about dinginess for the most part. It just worked.

Mich, which is exactly why I caution against the use of too much Sodium Carbonate ( Washing Soda) for instance using a powdered detergent and than adding a booster that contains even more of the stuff. It is caustic, it can and will damage fabrics. That being said, its what were stuck with in our powdered detergent, and I believe its fine and does its job, not as well as STPP but we can't have everything, and as long as we take into account how much SC we just dumped in the washer and not throw a bunch more in, things will be fine on thay end.

As for putting your hands in it Mich..lol..years ago my hubs father who was a medical doctor used to advise his patients to soak their dry cracked feet in Dreft detergent, he called it Pink Dreft, do you know if Dreft used to be pink and if it contained STPP?

@mamapinky0... Hmm. I wonder if he was talking about the "Dreft' Soap, which was just pure Soap Flakes, and nothing else. There was also... Dreft Powder Detergent (I'm thinking late 70's), but... I wouldn't wanna soak in it.

Remember commercial's for "take me away" with Calgon. The main ingredient... in all of those bath soaks & salts, we're Sodium Hexmetaphosphate, and sometimes Sodium TriPolyPhosphate. It really *did* leave skin extremely soft... ;)

Really random though - But my grandmother told me, that a neighbor of her's used to take the water left behind from the "wringer washer" and use it, to water plants. The Phosphates acted as a wonderful fertilizer and made everything flourish :-)

Today... if you tried that, I think you'd end up with a bunch of dead, horrific looking plants.

I think its called grey watering and I think its still done

Pink: Don't you remember Dreft being pink? I can remember that. And about soaking in it---

My Aunt had a sore on her leg(come to find out she had stuck a stick in it someway-not intentional of course) and it just wouldn't get well. She went to her Dr. and she put her on anti-biotics , then she had to go back because it still wasn't healing. The Dr gave more meds but this time told her to mix up some Tide powder detergent and soak her leg in it. She did and between that and the meds it got well. I had never heard of that till then but it works. Thats been about 20-25 yrs ago.

About the watering with wash water, best stuff there is and you won't have any bugs on your plants either. You remember Jerry(I think was his name) spokesman for Kmart garden center and on Master Gardener he always said use water and dish soap and something else for bugs. To spray plants well with this and no bug trouble--it worked too.

"Stpp works a bit differently it grabs onto so to speak the soils and
hard water minerals and actually prevents them from redistributing back
onto clothes."

Yes. Even though we have "moderately hard" (approx. 4 grains) water, when I replace 20% of the powder detergent dose with STPP, my rinsing woes disappear. It has not been banned in our state, so it's okay to use here.

TSP was the main ingredient in Spic-n-Span for ever. It has been taken out, rendering S-n-S a far less effective cleaner (like for aluminum siding, driveways, etc.)

STTP and STPP are two different things. Similar but different. For our new forum folks, yes it IS(!) confusing, it was for me, and I still have to stop and think the whole word out, then I know it is S-T-P-P . LOL For laundry, STPP is what we want, just like the topic title says. :-)